Church denies funeral to gay man

[UllysesS.Archer]

"Matthew 5:17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…

I would love for anyone to show me that Jesus told us to do away with the Old Testament, problem is, He never said that."

Well, then, Arche, we have a lot of work to do. It has been thousands of years since we have followed the Bible's directive that we stone a woman for gathering sticks on the Sabbath.... We need to make up for lost time.

And that would be where in the Bible? Don't tell me what you think it says, show me.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

"Matthew 5:17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…

I would love for anyone to show me that Jesus told us to do away with the Old Testament, problem is, He never said that."

Well, then, Arche, we have a lot of work to do. It has been thousands of years since we have followed the Bible's directive that we stone a woman for gathering sticks on the Sabbath.... We need to make up for lost time.

Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

Matthew 9:17

Christianity is a new religion, we are not meant to observe Old Testament practices, as they are the old wineskin.

UM No! Christ is talking about being converted to a Christian. You are sort of right, in the fact that the old wineskin is referring to the Scribes and Pharasies, and the laws that they had written, that had not come from God.

Now the Scribes and Pharisees may be signified by these old bottles, being natural men, no other than as they were born; having never been regenerated, and renewed in the spirit of their minds; in whom the old man was predominant, were mere formal professors of religion, and self-righteous persons: and by "new wine" is meant, either the love and favour of God compared to wine, that is neat and clean, because free from hypocrisy in him, or motives in the creature; to generous wine, for its cheering and reviving effects; and to new wine, not but that it is very ancient, even from everlasting, but, because newly manifested, in the effectual calling and conversion: or the Gospel is signified by wine, for its purity, good flavour, and pleasant taste; for its generous effects, in reviving drooping spirits, refreshing weary persons, and comforting distressed minds; and by new wine, not that it is a new doctrine, an upstart notion, for it is an ancient Gospel, but because newly and more clearly revealed by Christ and his apostles: or the blessings of grace which spring from the love of God, and are manifested in the Gospel, such as pardon of sin, reconciliation and atonement, justifying and sanctifying grace, spiritual joy and peace, and the like. Now as the new wine is not put into old bottles, else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: so the love of God, the Gospel of the grace of God, and the blessings of it, are not received and retained, nor can they be, by natural men, by self-righteous persons: they do not suit and agree with their old carnal hearts and principles; they slight and reject them, and let them run out, which proves their greater condemnation. But they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. By "new bottles" are meant sinners, whom Christ calls by his grace, and the Spirit regenerates and renews, who are made new creatures in Christ; who have new hearts, and new spirits, and new principles of light, life, love, faith, and holiness, implanted in them; who have new eyes to see with, new ears to hear with, new feet to walk with, to and in Christ, new hands to work and handle with, and who live a new life and conversation. Now to such as these, the love of God is manifested and shed abroad in their hearts; by these, the Gospel of Christ is truly received and valued, and these enjoy the spiritual blessings of it; and so both the doctrine of the Gospel, and the grace of God, are preserved entire, and these persons saved in the day of Christ.

 

[ChrisL]

"Matthew 5:17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…

I would love for anyone to show me that Jesus told us to do away with the Old Testament, problem is, He never said that."

Well, then, Arche, we have a lot of work to do. It has been thousands of years since we have followed the Bible's directive that we stone a woman for gathering sticks on the Sabbath.... We need to make up for lost time.

Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

Matthew 9:17

Christianity is a new religion, we are not meant to observe Old Testament practices, as they are the old wineskin.

UM No! Christ is talking about being converted to a Christian. You are sort of right, in the fact that the old wineskin is referring to the Scribes and Pharasies, and the laws that they had written, that had not come from God.

Now the Scribes and Pharisees may be signified by these old bottles, being natural men, no other than as they were born; having never been regenerated, and renewed in the spirit of their minds; in whom the old man was predominant, were mere formal professors of religion, and self-righteous persons: and by "new wine" is meant, either the love and favour of God compared to wine, that is neat and clean, because free from hypocrisy in him, or motives in the creature; to generous wine, for its cheering and reviving effects; and to new wine, not but that it is very ancient, even from everlasting, but, because newly manifested, in the effectual calling and conversion: or the Gospel is signified by wine, for its purity, good flavour, and pleasant taste; for its generous effects, in reviving drooping spirits, refreshing weary persons, and comforting distressed minds; and by new wine, not that it is a new doctrine, an upstart notion, for it is an ancient Gospel, but because newly and more clearly revealed by Christ and his apostles: or the blessings of grace which spring from the love of God, and are manifested in the Gospel, such as pardon of sin, reconciliation and atonement, justifying and sanctifying grace, spiritual joy and peace, and the like. Now as the new wine is not put into old bottles, else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: so the love of God, the Gospel of the grace of God, and the blessings of it, are not received and retained, nor can they be, by natural men, by self-righteous persons: they do not suit and agree with their old carnal hearts and principles; they slight and reject them, and let them run out, which proves their greater condemnation. But they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. By "new bottles" are meant sinners, whom Christ calls by his grace, and the Spirit regenerates and renews, who are made new creatures in Christ; who have new hearts, and new spirits, and new principles of light, life, love, faith, and holiness, implanted in them; who have new eyes to see with, new ears to hear with, new feet to walk with, to and in Christ, new hands to work and handle with, and who live a new life and conversation. Now to such as these, the love of God is manifested and shed abroad in their hearts; by these, the Gospel of Christ is truly received and valued, and these enjoy the spiritual blessings of it; and so both the doctrine of the Gospel, and the grace of God, are preserved entire, and these persons saved in the day of Christ.

Your screen name should be Archie Bunker.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

I have no need to refute anything you say, because I don't care what you think of me. And yes, I do enjoy myself very much. Thanks.

The very instant you made the argument about me... you lost. Because I don't care what you think of me.

"You break x law!"

Don't care.

"You are a Pharisee!"

Still don't care.

"You didn't refute me!"

Why would I refute your opinion, when I don't care about your opinion? Think whatever you want about me.

(psst: you are not that important in my world. Shocking I know)

Since I obviously have to explain how you're mischaracterizing me, I will.

Unlike you, I'm not judging you as a person. I'm addressing your actions. Unlike me, you are criticizing who people are.

Me addressing you as a pharisee is just pointing out that you are acting exactly as they do. I have no clue whether you are a good or bad person, but your actions here on USMB are downright hypocritical.

That's a very interesting rationalization for your choices.

Look, you still seem to think I care what you think of me. I don't. I'm not going to debate with you about whether I, or you, or anyone else, is judging actions, or judging "who they are", as if who they are makes sin, no longer sin, or whatever other nifty dumb arguments you come up with.

I'm not here to discuss with you, whether I am, or am not, doing whatever it is you think I'm doing.

Why?

Because I don't care what you think.

My Bible says X is wrong. If I find someone in my church living in such a way, that violates what that book says..... they are out.

If they are sleeping with their girl friend, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

If they are cheating on their wife, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

If they are married to another man, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

I don't care if sin, is "who you are" or not.

And don't bother justifying yourself to me. I don't care about that either. Besides, I'm not the one who sits in judgement on your own hypocrisy. G-d is. Unless you are a member of my church, and you are spewing such nonsense, I don't care.

Rationalize your judgement of others as being fine. That's works for me, because I don't care. You are not part of my church. You rationalize whatever you want.

Are you seeing theme here? I'm not here to debate your personal version of the Bible. I'm not here to discuss why it's ok for you to judge me, but no one else is allowed to judge anyone.

I am simply standing up for what I know is right, and I don't care what ANY OF YOU thinks.

"well you're a hypocrite and a pharisee and a hate monger and a (insert whatever popular insult you want here)"

That's very interesting. Your opinion has been noted, and filed in the appropriate oval can for future non-consideration.

I don't need to 'refute' you. I don't need to justify myself. I don't have to explain my beliefs to you, or convince you they are right.

I don't have to prove anything to you at all. Why?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

I'm not here to force you to believe, what I believe. I am simply TELLING YOU... what I believe, and that's all there is to it. I don't care what you think about my belief, me, or my church, or my Bible.

You can either accept that, and we can live in peace... or you can't not accept it, and I simply believe it without you. Either way, I'm going to continue to believe what I believe, and practice what I believe, and live out my life the way I believe, and you can be angry about it, or not. That's up to you, because I don't care what you think. Never have, don't now, and never will.

But by all means, continue posting your opinion of me, and your rationalizations about why your opinion in right, and why I should care. I'll keep posting the phrase that accurately reflects how I view all who spout their opinion of me and my religion.

I do not care. That seems so clear to me. I don't know why you people keep missing that.

Wow! You must be perfect and without sin! Impressive!

I have thought many positive things about you specifically ChrisL. I can't say that any of your many interesting posts, made me believe that you were perfect and without sin.

In looking at my post, I don't see where I said anything to indicate to you, that I was perfect or without sin either.

Please be so kind, as to point out the specific text where I said "I am perfect without sin", or anything that implied it?

It seems as if you will kick anyone out of your life for "sins." Well, you should love your friends and family regardless of their sins. Love the sinner, hate the sin and all that good stuff.

He's so perfect that he would tell Jesus not to eat with whores or tax collectors and be right.

I don't remember ever hearing that you cannot ASSOCIATE with sinners in the Bible. I always thought that you were supposed to help them and show them love and understanding. Meh, I guess I would be more of a NT person than an OT person. I just can't be THAT harsh to people. We are NOT perfect beings and we are all flawed on some level.

From the New Testament.

2 Thessalonians 3:14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

And how about a verse that goes directly to the OP.

1 Corinthians 5:11. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

And one of my favorite Psalm's
Psalm 26:…4I do not sit with deceitful men, Nor will I go with pretenders. 5I hate the assembly of evildoers, And I will not sit with the wicked. 6I shall wash my hands in innocence, And I will go about Your altar, O LORD,…

Hey, if you want to lie down with the dogs, then go for it, but don't be surprised when you wake up with fleas.

Yes, all people are sinners, but some just revel in their sin, and wish to proclaim their sin as righteousness.

 

[ChrisL]

I have no need to refute anything you say, because I don't care what you think of me. And yes, I do enjoy myself very much. Thanks.

The very instant you made the argument about me... you lost. Because I don't care what you think of me.

"You break x law!"

Don't care.

"You are a Pharisee!"

Still don't care.

"You didn't refute me!"

Why would I refute your opinion, when I don't care about your opinion? Think whatever you want about me.

(psst: you are not that important in my world. Shocking I know)

Since I obviously have to explain how you're mischaracterizing me, I will.

Unlike you, I'm not judging you as a person. I'm addressing your actions. Unlike me, you are criticizing who people are.

Me addressing you as a pharisee is just pointing out that you are acting exactly as they do. I have no clue whether you are a good or bad person, but your actions here on USMB are downright hypocritical.

That's a very interesting rationalization for your choices.

Look, you still seem to think I care what you think of me. I don't. I'm not going to debate with you about whether I, or you, or anyone else, is judging actions, or judging "who they are", as if who they are makes sin, no longer sin, or whatever other nifty dumb arguments you come up with.

I'm not here to discuss with you, whether I am, or am not, doing whatever it is you think I'm doing.

Why?

Because I don't care what you think.

My Bible says X is wrong. If I find someone in my church living in such a way, that violates what that book says..... they are out.

If they are sleeping with their girl friend, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

If they are cheating on their wife, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

If they are married to another man, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

I don't care if sin, is "who you are" or not.

And don't bother justifying yourself to me. I don't care about that either. Besides, I'm not the one who sits in judgement on your own hypocrisy. G-d is. Unless you are a member of my church, and you are spewing such nonsense, I don't care.

Rationalize your judgement of others as being fine. That's works for me, because I don't care. You are not part of my church. You rationalize whatever you want.

Are you seeing theme here? I'm not here to debate your personal version of the Bible. I'm not here to discuss why it's ok for you to judge me, but no one else is allowed to judge anyone.

I am simply standing up for what I know is right, and I don't care what ANY OF YOU thinks.

"well you're a hypocrite and a pharisee and a hate monger and a (insert whatever popular insult you want here)"

That's very interesting. Your opinion has been noted, and filed in the appropriate oval can for future non-consideration.

I don't need to 'refute' you. I don't need to justify myself. I don't have to explain my beliefs to you, or convince you they are right.

I don't have to prove anything to you at all. Why?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

I'm not here to force you to believe, what I believe. I am simply TELLING YOU... what I believe, and that's all there is to it. I don't care what you think about my belief, me, or my church, or my Bible.

You can either accept that, and we can live in peace... or you can't not accept it, and I simply believe it without you. Either way, I'm going to continue to believe what I believe, and practice what I believe, and live out my life the way I believe, and you can be angry about it, or not. That's up to you, because I don't care what you think. Never have, don't now, and never will.

But by all means, continue posting your opinion of me, and your rationalizations about why your opinion in right, and why I should care. I'll keep posting the phrase that accurately reflects how I view all who spout their opinion of me and my religion.

I do not care. That seems so clear to me. I don't know why you people keep missing that.

Wow! You must be perfect and without sin! Impressive!

I have thought many positive things about you specifically ChrisL. I can't say that any of your many interesting posts, made me believe that you were perfect and without sin.

In looking at my post, I don't see where I said anything to indicate to you, that I was perfect or without sin either.

Please be so kind, as to point out the specific text where I said "I am perfect without sin", or anything that implied it?

It seems as if you will kick anyone out of your life for "sins." Well, you should love your friends and family regardless of their sins. Love the sinner, hate the sin and all that good stuff.

He's so perfect that he would tell Jesus not to eat with whores or tax collectors and be right.

I don't remember ever hearing that you cannot ASSOCIATE with sinners in the Bible. I always thought that you were supposed to help them and show them love and understanding. Meh, I guess I would be more of a NT person than an OT person. I just can't be THAT harsh to people. We are NOT perfect beings and we are all flawed on some level.

From the New Testament.

2 Thessalonians 3:14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

And how about a verse that goes directly to the OP.

1 Corinthians 5:11. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

And one of my favorite Psalm's
Psalm 26:…4I do not sit with deceitful men, Nor will I go with pretenders. 5I hate the assembly of evildoers, And I will not sit with the wicked. 6I shall wash my hands in innocence, And I will go about Your altar, O LORD,…

Hey, if you want to lie down with the dogs, then go for it, but don't be surprised when you wake up with fleas.

Yes, all people are sinners, but some just revel in their sin, and wish to proclaim their sin as righteousness.

I don't think what you are preaching is at all what Jesus would have wanted. Jesus would have tried to help people and lift them up. All you do is try to put them down and make them feel even worse. Whether or not YOU think a person is a sinner, they are still HUMAN BEINGS who have feelings.

People like you are what the original colonists were running away from when they settled in this country.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

No no no no.... Wrong. Read my comments again.
--
My Bible says X is wrong. If I find someone in my church living in such a way, that violates what that book says..... they are out.

If they are sleeping with their girl friend, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

If they are cheating on their wife, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

If they are married to another man, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.
---

If you go to my CHURCH.... and you proclaim yourself a Christian going to our Christian Church... in doing so, you represent our Church. If you intentionally live a life that is completely contrary to what the church says, and give some excuse like "well it's who I am" or such... those people, SPECIFICALLY, those people, are gone.

If you show up and say "I have sinned, and I repent of my evil ways", that person stays. The Church is made for the those seeking forgiveness.

Now OUTSIDE of the church, in "my life" as you said... not true at all. I have many friends that are not Christians, don't pretend to be Christians, don't believe the Bible, some are 100% atheist, others are of different faiths like Muslim and so on... No problem.

A non-Christian, living as a Non-Christian is expected. I have no problem with that at all. I could sit down with you, who doesn't believe in Christianity (according to your prior posts), and have lunch, chat and talk, and that wouldn't bother me one bit. Why? Because you are not pretending to be Christian.

You could even come to my Church, if you wanted to (not saying you would), and that wouldn't bother anyone one bit either.

But now if you come and say, 'I'm a Christian! But I'm still going to live exactly as I did before in some clearly sinful lifestyle, and I am not going to change, because it's who I am.' then you are out.

That's where the problem come in. When you proclaim yourself a Christian in our Church, and yet blatantly refuse to accept Christian belief system, then we have a problem.

Again, it's like joining up with PETA, and then refusing to stop eating meat. You are not going to be a member long. When you are a member, you represent PETA to the rest of the world. You go around a the Japanese Steak House, and flashing your PETA membership to everyone, you are not going to be a member long.

All groups, all organizations of all types, operate this way. If you want to be a member, you have to follow the rules of membership. Christianity is the same. And I don't know of any organization that expects non-members to follow the rules they do... until you join them.

Okay, I agree that if you are going to be a member of a church with those beliefs then you should do your best to abide by them or do not become a member. However, I don't think that people plan for these "sins" in most cases, and that these are things that happen due to other underlying issues.

Now that is 100% correct! Sin creeps in. Even the most devout man can sin, and most don't plan on it. Telling a child a white lie about Santa Clause is a sin, that just creeps in, most don't even see it that way.

That is why a Christian must remain vigilant every minute of the day, and when they screw up, recognize it for what it is, ask for forgivness and try not to make the same mistake again.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

I have no need to refute anything you say, because I don't care what you think of me. And yes, I do enjoy myself very much. Thanks.

The very instant you made the argument about me... you lost. Because I don't care what you think of me.

"You break x law!"

Don't care.

"You are a Pharisee!"

Still don't care.

"You didn't refute me!"

Why would I refute your opinion, when I don't care about your opinion? Think whatever you want about me.

(psst: you are not that important in my world. Shocking I know)

Since I obviously have to explain how you're mischaracterizing me, I will.

Unlike you, I'm not judging you as a person. I'm addressing your actions. Unlike me, you are criticizing who people are.

Me addressing you as a pharisee is just pointing out that you are acting exactly as they do. I have no clue whether you are a good or bad person, but your actions here on USMB are downright hypocritical.

That's a very interesting rationalization for your choices.

Look, you still seem to think I care what you think of me. I don't. I'm not going to debate with you about whether I, or you, or anyone else, is judging actions, or judging "who they are", as if who they are makes sin, no longer sin, or whatever other nifty dumb arguments you come up with.

I'm not here to discuss with you, whether I am, or am not, doing whatever it is you think I'm doing.

Why?

Because I don't care what you think.

My Bible says X is wrong. If I find someone in my church living in such a way, that violates what that book says..... they are out.

If they are sleeping with their girl friend, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

If they are cheating on their wife, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

If they are married to another man, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

I don't care if sin, is "who you are" or not.

And don't bother justifying yourself to me. I don't care about that either. Besides, I'm not the one who sits in judgement on your own hypocrisy. G-d is. Unless you are a member of my church, and you are spewing such nonsense, I don't care.

Rationalize your judgement of others as being fine. That's works for me, because I don't care. You are not part of my church. You rationalize whatever you want.

Are you seeing theme here? I'm not here to debate your personal version of the Bible. I'm not here to discuss why it's ok for you to judge me, but no one else is allowed to judge anyone.

I am simply standing up for what I know is right, and I don't care what ANY OF YOU thinks.

"well you're a hypocrite and a pharisee and a hate monger and a (insert whatever popular insult you want here)"

That's very interesting. Your opinion has been noted, and filed in the appropriate oval can for future non-consideration.

I don't need to 'refute' you. I don't need to justify myself. I don't have to explain my beliefs to you, or convince you they are right.

I don't have to prove anything to you at all. Why?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

I'm not here to force you to believe, what I believe. I am simply TELLING YOU... what I believe, and that's all there is to it. I don't care what you think about my belief, me, or my church, or my Bible.

You can either accept that, and we can live in peace... or you can't not accept it, and I simply believe it without you. Either way, I'm going to continue to believe what I believe, and practice what I believe, and live out my life the way I believe, and you can be angry about it, or not. That's up to you, because I don't care what you think. Never have, don't now, and never will.

But by all means, continue posting your opinion of me, and your rationalizations about why your opinion in right, and why I should care. I'll keep posting the phrase that accurately reflects how I view all who spout their opinion of me and my religion.

I do not care. That seems so clear to me. I don't know why you people keep missing that.

Wow! You must be perfect and without sin! Impressive!

I have thought many positive things about you specifically ChrisL. I can't say that any of your many interesting posts, made me believe that you were perfect and without sin.

In looking at my post, I don't see where I said anything to indicate to you, that I was perfect or without sin either.

Please be so kind, as to point out the specific text where I said "I am perfect without sin", or anything that implied it?

It seems as if you will kick anyone out of your life for "sins." Well, you should love your friends and family regardless of their sins. Love the sinner, hate the sin and all that good stuff.

He's so perfect that he would tell Jesus not to eat with whores or tax collectors and be right.

I don't remember ever hearing that you cannot ASSOCIATE with sinners in the Bible. I always thought that you were supposed to help them and show them love and understanding. Meh, I guess I would be more of a NT person than an OT person. I just can't be THAT harsh to people. We are NOT perfect beings and we are all flawed on some level.

From the New Testament.

2 Thessalonians 3:14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

And how about a verse that goes directly to the OP.

1 Corinthians 5:11. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

And one of my favorite Psalm's
Psalm 26:…4I do not sit with deceitful men, Nor will I go with pretenders. 5I hate the assembly of evildoers, And I will not sit with the wicked. 6I shall wash my hands in innocence, And I will go about Your altar, O LORD,…

Hey, if you want to lie down with the dogs, then go for it, but don't be surprised when you wake up with fleas.

Yes, all people are sinners, but some just revel in their sin, and wish to proclaim their sin as righteousness.

I don't think what you are preaching is at all what Jesus would have wanted. Jesus would have tried to help people and lift them up. All you do is try to put them down and make them feel even worse. Whether or not YOU think a person is a sinner, they are still HUMAN BEINGS who have feelings.

People like you are what the original colonists were running away from when they settled in this country.

You got the bolded part right.

Anyone who believes Jesus was just about love and forgiveness, has never read the Gospels. Just read the sermon on the mound, and that will give you a better idea what Jesus was preaching.

 

[ChrisL]

No no no no.... Wrong. Read my comments again.
--
My Bible says X is wrong. If I find someone in my church living in such a way, that violates what that book says..... they are out.

If they are sleeping with their girl friend, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

If they are cheating on their wife, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.

If they are married to another man, and say "it's who I am". They are gone.
---

If you go to my CHURCH.... and you proclaim yourself a Christian going to our Christian Church... in doing so, you represent our Church. If you intentionally live a life that is completely contrary to what the church says, and give some excuse like "well it's who I am" or such... those people, SPECIFICALLY, those people, are gone.

If you show up and say "I have sinned, and I repent of my evil ways", that person stays. The Church is made for the those seeking forgiveness.

Now OUTSIDE of the church, in "my life" as you said... not true at all. I have many friends that are not Christians, don't pretend to be Christians, don't believe the Bible, some are 100% atheist, others are of different faiths like Muslim and so on... No problem.

A non-Christian, living as a Non-Christian is expected. I have no problem with that at all. I could sit down with you, who doesn't believe in Christianity (according to your prior posts), and have lunch, chat and talk, and that wouldn't bother me one bit. Why? Because you are not pretending to be Christian.

You could even come to my Church, if you wanted to (not saying you would), and that wouldn't bother anyone one bit either.

But now if you come and say, 'I'm a Christian! But I'm still going to live exactly as I did before in some clearly sinful lifestyle, and I am not going to change, because it's who I am.' then you are out.

That's where the problem come in. When you proclaim yourself a Christian in our Church, and yet blatantly refuse to accept Christian belief system, then we have a problem.

Again, it's like joining up with PETA, and then refusing to stop eating meat. You are not going to be a member long. When you are a member, you represent PETA to the rest of the world. You go around a the Japanese Steak House, and flashing your PETA membership to everyone, you are not going to be a member long.

All groups, all organizations of all types, operate this way. If you want to be a member, you have to follow the rules of membership. Christianity is the same. And I don't know of any organization that expects non-members to follow the rules they do... until you join them.

Okay, I agree that if you are going to be a member of a church with those beliefs then you should do your best to abide by them or do not become a member. However, I don't think that people plan for these "sins" in most cases, and that these are things that happen due to other underlying issues.

Now that is 100% correct! Sin creeps in. Even the most devout man can sin, and most don't plan on it. Telling a child a white lie about Santa Clause is a sin, that just creeps in, most don't even see it that way.

That is why a Christian must remain vigilant every minute of the day, and when they screw up, recognize it for what it is, ask for forgivness and try not to make the same mistake again.

I'm just glad I'm not you, that's all I can say.

 

[ChrisL]

And the Christians wonder why people are leaving them behind in droves??? It's because a lot of them are just mean nasty people who think they are better than everyone else and treat other people like crap, but they are really JUST judgmental assholes and hypocrites. Some of you sure don't seem like "Christians" to me. I think the devil has you fooled.

God Loves Sinners

I am saddened by the hatred that some professed “Christians” have for the unsaved. It is tragic. Yes, God hates sin and the wrath of God abides upon Christ-rejecters (John 3:36); but let us never stray from the great Biblical doctrine of God's wondrous love for mankind, which allowed Christ to be nailed to the cross for our sins. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Notice the words, "God so loved THE WORLD."

 

[House]

Telling a child a white lie about Santa Clause is a sin, that just creeps in, most don't even see it that way.

So is the presumption that Christmas has anything at all to do with the birth of Christ.

The entire holiday is one big deception, including the reason of its existence.

If Christmas had anything at all to do with the birth of Jesus, it'd be observed in the spring... but that wouldn't have made it easier to convert pagans then, would it?

And I'm not even debating your dumbassery posted in response to me earlier. Jesus straight up told his disciples that the pharisees knew and preached sound doctrine. The problem with them was the same thing that plagues our clergy today... they didn't practice what they preached.

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Matthew 23:1-3

 

[Andylusion]

I think that it goes without saying that Androw goes to a very small church.

Once again, judging after claiming you shouldn't judge.
You know absolutely nothing about my church, yet make proclamations about it?

I don't believe in mega churches to begin with. If my church was a mega church, I likely wouldn't be going to it. Any Church with a Starbucks, or an ATM in it, to me, signals something is wrong.

I'm not worried at numbers. It's more important to be speaking truth, with 10 people, than lying and attracting thousands.

That said, my church has five pastors, 20 staff, and a membership of about 800. It's certainly not a mega church by any stretch. But it's also not a church of 250 like I grew up in. Our building has a full gymnasium, a Children Church room, and a Families Church room, along with the main sanctuary. There are also of course, the typical class rooms, and prayer rooms you would expect, and even a central outdoor area, in the middle of the complex, with trees, a fountain, and benches, for those who just need a minute alone. The entire complex sits on 21 acres of land.

We also directly support and run two external ministries. One, we send people to Malawi Africa. We have built an orphanage, a water well, and a building for cooking and utilities. We send a team almost every year, to do repairs, and further expansion.

The other is an outreach to homeless in California. It isn't always in California, but normally it is, and they do various stuff.

There are many other things we do, all open to the public, but it would take too long to list and explain them, so I'll spare you that

Thanks for your interest in our Church.

 

[Andylusion]

He's so perfect that he would tell Jesus not to eat with whores or tax collectors and be right.

Ironically, I actually did eat dinner with a known whore.

Before or after?

I keed, I keed!

I had my suspicions before hand, but I learned quickly what she was all about. Her situation was really sad, with no father, and a over worked mother who simply didn't have the ability to teach her how to be an adult. In her case, she needed the money.

I actually have a higher respect for that, than I do the girls who give themselves away for free. How much self value do you have, that you give yourself away for ZERO? I don't understand that at all. Women today need self respect. At least this poor girl had enough self worth, she knew she was worth money.

You think it's respectable to sell your body? Say it isn't so Androw!!!

Comparatively. Have you not read Joshua 6:26?

"Yet Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, her father’s family, and all who belonged to her. She lives in Israel to this very day because she hid the messengers Joshua sent to spy on Jericho."

Does this mean every girl should be a prostitute? No. The Bible does outline a better way.

But between that, and just screwing any guy you are not married to, for free? You have no value? None at all? Really?

Rahab served the Lord, by helping his people Israel. And G-d blessed her, and her family.

 

[House]

He's so perfect that he would tell Jesus not to eat with whores or tax collectors and be right.

Ironically, I actually did eat dinner with a known whore.

Before or after?

I keed, I keed!

I had my suspicions before hand, but I learned quickly what she was all about. Her situation was really sad, with no father, and a over worked mother who simply didn't have the ability to teach her how to be an adult. In her case, she needed the money.

I actually have a higher respect for that, than I do the girls who give themselves away for free. How much self value do you have, that you give yourself away for ZERO? I don't understand that at all. Women today need self respect. At least this poor girl had enough self worth, she knew she was worth money.

You think it's respectable to sell your body? Say it isn't so Androw!!!

Comparatively. Have you not read Joshua 6:26?

"Yet Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, her father’s family, and all who belonged to her. She lives in Israel to this very day because she hid the messengers Joshua sent to spy on Jericho."

Does this mean every girl should be a prostitute? No. The Bible does outline a better way.

But between that, and just screwing any guy you are not married to, for free? You have no value? None at all? Really?

Rahab served the Lord, by helping his people Israel. And G-d blessed her, and her family.

I find it interesting that you use that scripture to justify assigning any amount of positivity to prostitution, as if Joshua would not have spared Rahab for her good deed had she been a mere slut.

Her sexual proclivities were not what earned her Joshua's favor, her treatment of his people was.

 

[Andylusion]

And the Christians wonder why people are leaving them behind in droves??? It's because a lot of them are just mean nasty people who think they are better than everyone else and treat other people like crap, but they are really JUST judgmental assholes and hypocrites. Some of you sure don't seem like "Christians" to me. I think the devil has you fooled.

God Loves Sinners

I am saddened by the hatred that some professed “Christians” have for the unsaved. It is tragic. Yes, God hates sin and the wrath of God abides upon Christ-rejecters (John 3:36); but let us never stray from the great Biblical doctrine of God's wondrous love for mankind, which allowed Christ to be nailed to the cross for our sins. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Notice the words, "God so loved THE WORLD."

There are two reasons people are leaving Christianity behind in droves.

The first, is simply that most people reject Jesus. It's as simple as that. You have to remember, the entire purpose of Christianity isn't to attract a bunch of Pagans. We're not a Political Party, trying to collect the most votes.

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." - Jesus. He didn't say "everyone loves me".

The second reason, is ironically, exactly what people on this forum have been accusing us of.... Hypocrisy.

People in the Church, saying one thing, and living a completely different way than what they preach.

So what can we do about that? We can't go around and force people to live they way our Church teaches. The thing we can do, is kick people out of the Church who proclaim themselves Christian, and yet don't live as Christians, when we find out about it.

The people on this thread, are attacking us for basically trying to kick out the hypocrites. Yet if we don't kick out the hypocrites, then you attack us for being full of hypocrites.

This again, is exactly why... I'm just going to live out my Christian faith, and I don't care what any of you think of me, or my church. Not because I hate you. I'm just going to live my life the best I know how, and keep my faith as best I can, and if that's not good enough for the rest of society.... oh well. Sucks to be you. I'm just going to keep on going.

 

[Andylusion]

He's so perfect that he would tell Jesus not to eat with whores or tax collectors and be right.

Ironically, I actually did eat dinner with a known whore.

Before or after?

I keed, I keed!

I had my suspicions before hand, but I learned quickly what she was all about. Her situation was really sad, with no father, and a over worked mother who simply didn't have the ability to teach her how to be an adult. In her case, she needed the money.

I actually have a higher respect for that, than I do the girls who give themselves away for free. How much self value do you have, that you give yourself away for ZERO? I don't understand that at all. Women today need self respect. At least this poor girl had enough self worth, she knew she was worth money.

You think it's respectable to sell your body? Say it isn't so Androw!!!

Comparatively. Have you not read Joshua 6:26?

"Yet Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, her father’s family, and all who belonged to her. She lives in Israel to this very day because she hid the messengers Joshua sent to spy on Jericho."

Does this mean every girl should be a prostitute? No. The Bible does outline a better way.

But between that, and just screwing any guy you are not married to, for free? You have no value? None at all? Really?

Rahab served the Lord, by helping his people Israel. And G-d blessed her, and her family.

I find it interesting that you use that scripture to justify assigning any amount of positivity to prostitution, as if Joshua would not have spared Rahab for her good deed had she been a mere slut.

Her sexual proclivities were not what earned her Joshua's favor, her treatment of his people was.

Again, I didn't say it was a positive thing. Where in there did I say "prostitution is good"?

Assaulting someone is a terrible thing. But poking out someone's eyes, so they are blind for life, is far worse. Comparatively Assault is much better. I'd much rather you beat me with a stick, than blind me for life.

Does that mean that I am "justifying an amount of positivity to assault"? No. Comparatively, it's better... but that doesn't mean given the options, I would want to be assaulted.

Ravi Zacharias, of RZIM, has a charity ministry he started, called Wellspring International.
Wellspring International | rescue : rehabilitation : restoration : re-entry

They help women who get caught up in the sex worker industry. Providing free training to girls who wish to leave the sex shops, so they can get jobs, and earn a living.

I have supported this ministry, and am a firm believer in it. I would encourage all of you to support this ministry.

 

[House]

He's so perfect that he would tell Jesus not to eat with whores or tax collectors and be right.

Ironically, I actually did eat dinner with a known whore.

Before or after?

I keed, I keed!

I had my suspicions before hand, but I learned quickly what she was all about. Her situation was really sad, with no father, and a over worked mother who simply didn't have the ability to teach her how to be an adult. In her case, she needed the money.

I actually have a higher respect for that, than I do the girls who give themselves away for free. How much self value do you have, that you give yourself away for ZERO? I don't understand that at all. Women today need self respect. At least this poor girl had enough self worth, she knew she was worth money.

You think it's respectable to sell your body? Say it isn't so Androw!!!

Comparatively. Have you not read Joshua 6:26?

"Yet Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, her father’s family, and all who belonged to her. She lives in Israel to this very day because she hid the messengers Joshua sent to spy on Jericho."

Does this mean every girl should be a prostitute? No. The Bible does outline a better way.

But between that, and just screwing any guy you are not married to, for free? You have no value? None at all? Really?

Rahab served the Lord, by helping his people Israel. And G-d blessed her, and her family.

I find it interesting that you use that scripture to justify assigning any amount of positivity to prostitution, as if Joshua would not have spared Rahab for her good deed had she been a mere slut.

Her sexual proclivities were not what earned her Joshua's favor, her treatment of his people was.

Again, I didn't say it was a positive thing. Where in there did I say "prostitution is good"?

Where did I say you said it was good? I didn't. I said you assigned "any amount of positivity" to it, which is a factual statement.

Any time you say "x" is better than "y", positivity for "x" is assigned over "y".

Pretty basic stuff there, boss.

 

[Andylusion]

I was just thinking about this, and so I decided to ask, just out of curiosity.

What is your suggestion? Hm?

Say you are in a Church. You are a member of that Church. You, and your Church, have a set of beliefs.

What those beliefs are, for the sake of this question, doesn't matter.

Now say some people join your Church. They become a members of your Church. They proclaim themselves members of your Church.

However, none follow your Church's beliefs and doctrines. They live completely opposed to how you teach. And they run around telling others that they are members of your church, and everyone can see that they live the opposite of how that Church teaches.

So everywhere you go, every time you tell people what Church you belong to, every says "oh... your part of that church. That church is full of hypocrites." and... they would be right.

So....... what do you do? What is your suggestion? Obviously you can't kick them out of your Church, because this whole thread has been about how horrible it is for us to kick people out. I would assume you don't want to be hypocrites yourselves, so what is your solution? Do you just let the hypocrites stay in your church, so that you yourself are known as a hypocrite in a church of hypocrites, for rest of your life?

What's your answer? I'd love to know what you think the solution is.

 

[Andylusion]

Where did I say you said it was good? I didn't. I said you assigned "any amount of positivity" to it, which is a factual statement.

Any time you say "x" is better than "y", positivity for "x" is assigned over "y".

Pretty basic stuff there, boss.

So claiming that I implied something positive about prostitution, is not the same as me implying something 'good' about prostitution.....

Pretty basic rationalization there, boss.

 

[House]

Where did I say you said it was good? I didn't. I said you assigned "any amount of positivity" to it, which is a factual statement.

Any time you say "x" is better than "y", positivity for "x" is assigned over "y".

Pretty basic stuff there, boss.

So claiming that I implied something positive about prostitution, is not the same as me implying something 'good' about prostitution.....

Pretty basic rationalization there, boss.

Not at all. It just means that "x" isn't as bad as "y"

-9 is a higher number than -10, but that doesn't make it a positive number.

Gonorrhea is better than AIDS, but I wouldn't call Gonorrhea good.

If you can't figure out basic logic, there's no helping you.

 

[House]

What's your answer? I'd love to know what you think the solution is.

I see no point in addressing your question, considering you attack anyone with a contrary view even when they provide sound reasoning as I have above.

You have no interest in rational discussion, so there is no need for you to pretend otherwise.