collective punishments

[Billo_Really]

Thank you, that's fair enough and much better than the one liners you usually post.

That'll be $4.50 (+ tax)

 

[Billo_Really]

Phoenall, this qualifies as the stupidest thing I have yet heard anyone on this forum say, Sally included. How do you know someone is a terrorist if they're in administrative detention. By definition administrative detention means they can be held without proof of any crime, without even evidence being presented. They could just be the most effective leaders, the people Israel fears most, but who really have committed no crime.

That guy is either a psychopathic liar, or 15 years old.

 

[irosie91]

Its coming....

Lets just say that the world has turned against the Palestinians for kidnapping 3 children, and Israel is given free reign to retaliate as much as they want. Lets hope for the Palestinians sake that the 3 boys are still alive, otherwise there will be a few Katyns on the Palestinians is reprisals.

That's why you need to get out of Palestine. You just threatened to kill multiple thousands of innocent Palestinians.

to whom do you address your statement Aenmity? If a member of a people expresses
an idea that a nation should be attacked in the middle east---that means the whole
nation of that people should leave the middle east? So in 1967---all the people of Egypt
should have been removed from the middle east?

 

[amity1844]

In 1967/68, the Palestinians updated and formalized their threat against Israel; and essentially declared Jihad and Armed Struggle against Israel with the goal of attempting to control all of the former territory under the British Mandate. To that end, a number of insurgent activities emerged using terrorist tactics against Israel and regional assets of Israeli allies. That Jihadist strategy continues through today. This Jihadist Strategy and policy of "armed struggle" poses a threat to the national security of Israel and its territorial integrity, as well as, a threat to the safety and security of the citizens of Israel. It is this threat that is a catalyst for the continuation of occupation.

Is there any credible Palestinian source that you can cite concerning the "jihad" declared in 1967-1968?

 

[amity1844]

Wrong as Israel can never die now, the UN made sure of that.................

Don't be too sure. There's Rome, remember?

But look, Phoenall, you and I are getting in the way of some more intelligent conversation.

 

[irosie91]

No 1948 borders is there according to the palestinians so they will stay were they are. As for the occupation when the Palestinians stop occupying Jewish land then the Jews will stop occupying Palestinian land.

How can the Palestinians be occupying Jewish land?

The land was never Palestinian in the first place, it was ottoman until 1919 when it was handed to the allies as SPOILS OF WAR. They being the legal owners under INTERNATIONAL LAW at the time had the legal right to give the land to whoever they wished. So do find a document that gives the land to the Palestinians that was not a breach of INTERNATIONAL LAW of the time.

We need to introduce you to the concept of an indigenous people. When Israel was formed, Algeria still "belonged" to France. Eventually they were persuaded to give up that claim by means of a sea change in attitude worldwide, and plenty of violence in Algeria.
And you need to enter the 21st century in your thinking. No one HAD a legitimate claim to Palestine but the Palestinians.

That's your definition of ownership of land?-----by whatever a group decides to call itself? ----
If I decide to call myself Saudia Arabian-----do I own Saudi Arabia? ---in 1948 the only
people called "Palestinians" were jews living in Brtish Mandate Palestine-----muslims
and Christians living there were called----either "arabs or Syrians"----oh---but that was not
21st century----that was 20th century-----so it ----may not count

 

[docmauser1]

Is there any credible Palestinian source that you can cite concerning the "jihad" declared in 1967-1968?

Palistanian sources are so incredible!

 

[irosie91]

As you have said you reap what you sow, and they have sown violence, bloodshed and war since 1929 when they massacred the Jews in Hebron.

Actually, the Palestinian response has always been pretty measured compared to what they're up against. I think 1929 was the first year they realized the Jews were trying to steal their country! The death toll on the Arab side has always been disproportionately huge compared to Jews. It didn't start with Hebron.

True---it did not start with Hebron-----it started with Khiaber the death toll on the jewish
side has been in the tens of millions-----the death toll of arabs has been miniscule----since
"IT" started Hebron -----a jewish city for thousands of years-----was actually
REPURCHSED in the 1800s ----by jews -----somehow in the minds of "some people"----
purchase is called "theft" ------whereas attainment of land by rape and slit throat (yathrib and
Hebron) is called "holy" For those who do not know------Hebron was confiscated by
murder -------in 1929--------a holy endeavor for "some" ----such a victory for the lovers of filth

 

[aris2chat]

Israel never invaded the territory of the State of Palestine.

Egypt and Jordan did not invade Palestine in 1948. They entered Palestine to fight Israeli troops. They did not "invade Palestine" as they were not at war with Palestine.

Nevertheless they occupied Palestinian territory until 1967.

What state were they occupying?

Moving your armies into a land and keeping them there, while oppressing the local inhabitants is not invasion? Palestinians had no rights of self determination with the WB and G being annexed. Palestinians were gathered into refugee camps and the UN was expected to support them. Jordan did offer citizenship, but after Arafat attempted a coup the PLO was kicked out and Jordan handed the WB to Israel.

Neither Egypt nor Jordan created a palestinian state, they did not care about the palestinians.

 

[amity1844]

Aenmity---your response makes no sense "I do not know anything about Shariah law and you
know far less" No--in fact I know a whole lot about it----which is why you did not even address
the issue-----you simply emitted eructations.. Anyone who wants to "drive any people to insanity"---
can simply impose the laws of DHIMMIA upon them. The laws of Dhimmia are how muslims
got rid of Christians, jews, Zoroastrians, etc etc in countries now overwhelmingly or completely

I have no idea what you are talking about. And you are wrong to bring what happened in other lands into a discussion of Palestine/Israel.

muslim------IE ---it is genocidal In fact----how do you think the Persians got rid of their
Zoroastrians? and---their Christians?-----and most of their jews?-----for that matter---how did "the
west bank" become devoid of jews?

I believe the west bank essentially lost its Jewish population (it has never been "devoid of Jews") because they converted to Christianity and Islam over the last 13 centuries. Other than that, everything else is irrelevant because it has naught to do with Palestine.

You express a POV that has interested me since I
spent several days ----in may and june 1967 listening to the rants of your fellows as they spoke
in the UN--- in this and that odd interview. It was back there in the 60s---when there were people
in the USA who thought that the world's greatest travesty as a marriage between a "colored person"
and a white person-------they claimed that they did not WANT to hurt "colored people"---they
just did not want to sit at the same lunch counter with them.

Your fellows made it perfectly clear in their statements-----"WE WILL NOT TOLERATE
A ZIONIST ENCLAVE IN OUR MIDST" I understand----even back then when
I was a teen----there was not a single black family living in my lily white Nazi town.
I know Nazism up close-------I was reading YOUR literature at age 10 Jews have lived
in the middle east------in the area YOU CALL Palestine------for some 4000 years-------
In the little US town in which I grew up-----American Indians had resided for thousands
of years-----(people still found arrow heads along the river and streams)----but I doubt
that the Nazis over there would have tolerated an AMERICAN INDIAN HOMEOWNER
in that town------in 1940-----if fact I know that they would have not.

you express the Islamic fascist POV------just as did the Saudi Arabian ambassador to
the UN ------in may 1967 -----just as some of my neighbors in the 1950s ---expressed
their fascist KU KLUX KLAN notions in the 1950s. Interesting reminiscence>>>>
when I was a kid-----I barely understood why when my mom felt annoyed by our
Nazi neighbors she would say "when I sell this house----I am going to make sure
to sell it to a colored family"

You can't really be confused by this. Zionism is NOT Judaism. Zionism is an ideology of conquest of Arab land and the expulsion of the indigenous population. If you believe that morality compels Arabs to accept a Zionist presence in their midst, I have to ask you if you also believe Israel is morally compelled to accept a Nazi presence in its midst?

In sum---that which you are supporting is a fascist POV-----"arabs are entitled
to establish communities and states in the middle east---but jews are not"

In Iran----muslims are entitled----but Zoroastrians are not. (for that matter---
neither are Christians or Jews)

I do not believe that any external population has any entitlement to invade another country simply to integrate the neighborhood, no. The Dutch had no right to colonize South Africa. Neither did the British. Morally it should never have happened, and the Zulus and Hottentots and other groups had every right to resist by all means, up until the last man,woman, and child. But unfortunately due to a disparity in arms, colonization was successful. So in the passage of time, to honor the rights of human beings to live on the land of their birth, having in many cases nowhere else to go, an accommodation was worked out in the case of South Africa and also will be in the case of Palestine/Israel.

Yes, I do argue that Israel had no MORAL right to exist and still does not, but it is too late to rectify a gigantic historical injustice by expelling the Jewish population, and no credible person advocates such a thing. But I also believe that few will be willing to give up the fight until Palestinian rights are respected.

 

[amity1844]

At the time, the Mufti of Jerusalem wanted to kill all the Jews in Palestine and the ME. He wanted a deal with your Uncle Adolph.

Agreed, and he had VERY little credibility with Palestinians at the time, and once the PLO was formed they told him he needed to keep his mouth shut. He was totally excluded from all discourse by the Palestinians themselves.

 

[amity1844]

to whom do you address your statement Aenmity? If a member of a people expresses
an idea that a nation should be attacked in the middle east---that means the whole
nation of that people should leave the middle east? So in 1967---all the people of Egypt
should have been removed from the middle east?

To you personally, irosie91. You speak like a genocidal maniac sometimes.

 

[irosie91]

to whom do you address your statement Aenmity? If a member of a people expresses
an idea that a nation should be attacked in the middle east---that means the whole
nation of that people should leave the middle east? So in 1967---all the people of Egypt
should have been removed from the middle east?

To you personally, irosie91. You speak like a genocidal maniac sometimes.

Oh----"sometimes" I speak "like a genocidal maniac"------;sometimes' is a plural---
indicating that ACCORDING TO YOU I have expressed myself at least more than once
as a genocidal maniac-------so you will have no problem citing at least two examples
of my 'genocidal maniac' expressions ------go for it-----I am eager for your citations

 

[amity1844]

That's your definition of ownership of land?-----by whatever a group decides to call itself? ----
If I decide to call myself Saudia Arabian-----do I own Saudi Arabia? ---in 1948 the only
people called "Palestinians" were jews living in Brtish Mandate Palestine-----muslims
and Christians living there were called----either "arabs or Syrians"----oh---but that was not
21st century----that was 20th century-----so it ----may not count

irosie, you are wasting planet earth's time with that crapola. Back in the late '60s Golda Meir was able to pull it off. Now it would be hard to find a mentally competent denizen of earth who would agree with this far right extremist b.s. A poll was done in Israel, and virtually everyone sampled aqreed that the Palestinians were the indigenous people of Palestine. So you are weakening your argument and marginalizing your political stance by continuing to maintain it. Because Palestinians are the indigenous people of Palestine, and everyone knows it, they have and will one day realize the right to return home. And if there's any doubt, they now have the genetic credentials to prove it.

Khalas. Bikafe.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

You get this wrong all the time.

In 1967/68, the Palestinians updated and formalized their threat against Israel; and essentially declared Jihad and Armed Struggle against Israel with the goal of attempting to control all of the former territory under the British Mandate.

The mandate was temporarily assigned to Palestine to render administrative assistance and advise according to the League of Nations Covenant. It had no territory of its own. Palestine existed separate from the mandate.

So, what was your purpose for using that term?

(REFERENCE)

Title.1. This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.​

SOURCE: AT THE COURT AT BUCKINGHAM PALACE, The 10th day of August, 1922

This revised edition of “The Question of Palestine and the United Nations”
reflects a number of milestones and events through the end of 2007. Foremost among
these was the passage of 60 years since the adoption by the General Assembly in 1947
of resolution 181 (II), providing for the establishment of an Arab State and a Jewish
State in the former Mandate territory of Palestine, with a special status for the holy
city of Jerusalem.

• Page 8 is a
  
  showing the "Boundary of Former Palestine Mandate."
  
• Page 15: "Israel came to occupy the entire area of the former British Mandate of Palestine."

Article II

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.

- See more at: http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/1...21200790dd1?OpenDocument#sthash.QBhpqZie.dpuf

(COMMENT)

Palestine was the short title for the territory under the Mandate of Palestine.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[MHunterB]

At the time, the Mufti of Jerusalem wanted to kill all the Jews in Palestine and the ME. He wanted a deal with your Uncle Adolph.

Agreed, and he had VERY little credibility with Palestinians at the time, and one the PLO was formed they told him he needed to keep his mouth shut. He was totally excluded from all discourse.

Interesting. And of course you have copious documentation of all of that from unimpeachable sources?

 

[amity1844]

That area, being a small place, gives Israeli Intelligence the ability to know who are and who aren't terrorists. Just like I know who the crooks and sleazebags are in my district, Little Miss Terrorist Supporter. And don't insult my intelligence by saying you're not.

That is un-American b.s., Hossfly, and you know it. They waltz around arresting whomever they please as a means of exerting political control, not as a punishment and not as a security measure. If someone is going to meet with a reporter, they will be arrested. If someone is holding a class, or is writing a book, they will be arrested.

As for being a terrorist supporter, I am just not sure who I like right now. Nobody I don't think. I formerly had quite a few close friends in Fateh I met through university connections while living in Lebanon, but that was loooong past the statute of limitations, they were moderates who didn't endorse "terrorism" (understood as attacks against civilians), and they are either dead now or are characteristically involved with humanitarian relief. I am not in touch with any of them any longer, but may be again in the future, who knows? I was never a member. I don't currently know any Arabs at all, just making the acquaintance of one now, and the only Muslim I currently know works with me at my federal job and is a U.S. citizen from India.

One of my Fateh friends said "Don't give your loyalty to Fateh, or to me. If you put your faith in anyone but the Palestinian people you will be disappointed." And so it came to pass.

However, had a revelation yesterday, there MAY be some members of a Zionist terrorist organization on here. Don't know if and don't know who. Not making any accusations, that is for others to sort out if they so choose.

And, ta-da, none of the above is secret from either U.S. or Israeli intelligence.

 

[irosie91]

That's your definition of ownership of land?-----by whatever a group decides to call itself? ----
If I decide to call myself Saudia Arabian-----do I own Saudi Arabia? ---in 1948 the only
people called "Palestinians" were jews living in Brtish Mandate Palestine-----muslims
and Christians living there were called----either "arabs or Syrians"----oh---but that was not
21st century----that was 20th century-----so it ----may not count

irosie, you are wasting planet earth's time with that crapola. Back in the late '60s Golda Meir was able to pull it off. Now it would be hard to find a mentally competent denizen of earth who would agree with this far right extremist b.s. A poll was done in Israel, and virtually everyone sampled aqreed that the Palestinians were the indigenous people of Palestine. So you are weakening your argument and marginalizing your political stance by continuing to maintain it. Because Palestinians are the indigenous people of Palestine, and everyone knows it, they have and will one day realize the right to return home.

a POLL???? you have decided that the route to FACT is by "poll"------a poll
is a measure of the opinion of a group of people at a specific point in time.
My education is in science -----not baseless opinion. I never encountered the "poll"
to which you refer. I do recall other "polls" during my youth ----things
like "should schools be racially segregated" I did not depend upon them even
when I was 14 for "truth" ---------the statement I made regarding who was called
a "PALESTINIAN" was not only true for 1948 ----but for about the 1700 preceding
years---------if the "poll" which you cite did not specify the definition of
"Palestinian"-----then the poll is worthless My husband's government papers---during
his infancy describe him as "Palestinian" he was not even born in Palestine-----he
was a jew who entered british mandate Palestine as an infant -------had he been
a muslim his papers would have described him as 'YEMENI ARAB'

yet Yemeni appears NOWHERE ON HIS PAPERS and certainly not "arab" His ancestors lived in Yemen for AT LEAST 2500 years ------is everyone "indigenous" to some place in the world?
In today's world----what does it mean to be "indigenous" to a part of the earth?.
Is Barack Obama an "indigenous" USA person?

you and your fellow fascists play word games -----your posts, ---specifically, remind me
of Jay Leno's "jaywalks"

 

[MHunterB]

That's your definition of ownership of land?-----by whatever a group decides to call itself? ----
If I decide to call myself Saudia Arabian-----do I own Saudi Arabia? ---in 1948 the only
people called "Palestinians" were jews living in Brtish Mandate Palestine-----muslims
and Christians living there were called----either "arabs or Syrians"----oh---but that was not
21st century----that was 20th century-----so it ----may not count

irosie, you are wasting planet earth's time with that crapola. Back in the late '60s Golda Meir was able to pull it off. Now it would be hard to find a mentally competent denizen of earth who would agree with this far right extremist b.s. A poll was done in Israel, and virtually everyone sampled aqreed that the Palestinians were the indigenous people of Palestine. So you are weakening your argument and marginalizing your political stance by continuing to maintain it. Because Palestinians are the indigenous people of Palestine, and everyone knows it, they have and will one day realize the right to return home. And if there's any doubt, they now have the genetic credentials to prove it.

Khalas. Bikafe.

I'm sure Rosie is flattered to be compared to Golda - but the rest of Hostility's rant is simply an example of how obnoxious one can be without resort to actual profanity.

Hostility is overlooking a small detail about the 'genetics' aspect - for one thing, she's acknowledged she is unqualified to interpret the study's findings. For another, several of us ARE - and we've read the entire discussion and not just the one study. The methodology was flawed, and the sampling as well: it was obviously 'cooked' to suit the POV of those doing the study.

And then there's that little detail of 'self-determination', which looms so large for Hostility. She fantasizes that because there is SOME genetic connection, that the erstwhile Palestinians are somehow 'Jews' and the Law of Return should apply to them.

I don't think outsiders - Jewish or not! - should be dictating to the State of Israel OR the religion of Judaism who is or is not a Jew.

Just how closely most 'Palestinians' may or may not be genetically related to Ashkenazi or Sefardi or Mizrachi Jews is of far less import than this:

The Mandate was divided in '47 and the Jews accepted their portion - while the 'Palestinians' did not, and then five different 'friends of Palestinians' armies attacked.

If the Palestinians want a state, they need to create it on whatever land from '47 remains in their control. They are welcome, as I understand, to negotiate with Israel over exchanges of bits of land to even out borders and make things simpler - AFTER they acknowledge Israel is fully as 'legitimate' as Palestine wishes to be.

 

[amity1844]

Oh----"sometimes" I speak "like a genocidal maniac"------;sometimes' is a plural---
indicating that ACCORDING TO YOU I have expressed myself at least more than once
as a genocidal maniac-------so you will have no problem citing at least two examples
of my 'genocidal maniac' expressions ------go for it-----I am eager for your citations

No, that is NOT what I am going to do, irosie. Not a good use of time for me. Just try to moderate your speech please. The pro Palestinians around here never stoop to extremism, but always have extremism attributed to them in order to discredit them unjustly. It should just stop.