Colorado baker told to bake that cake

[JoeB131]

Died? That whole
Town is going to die that shit is poison

We're all going to die eventually..

But no casualties today. Emergency response was competent, as opposed to Trump.

 

[Patriot01]

We're all going to die eventually..

But no casualties today. Emergency response was competent, as opposed to Trump.

Lol epa told them to go back home ,, the Biden admin on transportation is abhorrent, planes are crashing on run ways, rail road workers going on strike. Inflation caused by truckers regulation

 

[JoeB131]

Lol epa told them to go back home ,, the Biden admin on transportation is abhorrent, planes are crashing on run ways, rail road workers going on strike. Inflation caused by truckers regulation

Okay, buddy, whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

Funny, I didn't see you whining here when we had REAL problems in 2020- you know, riots, forest fires, plagues, mass closing of businesses, mass layoffs.

 

[ThisIsMe]

You mean a couple of parents showed up at the meeting an protested books, as opposed to white Christians, who support shit like "Don't say gay" laws.



Again... Muslims just want to be left alone. Christians are the ones trying to impose their will on the rest of us.



Still in violation of the law.



You have far more faith in your fellow man than I do. Heck, Trump says "Kung Flu" and his Nazis go around beating little old Asian ladies and shooting up massage parlors. I would shudder to think what happens if China really did present a threat.



Nope, we sent American citizens to Gitmo and rendered them to black sites.

Judge pushes U.S. to explain why it's holding an American citizen in secret in Iraq

In a case that defense lawyers warned could create a “constitutional black hole,” a federal judge expressed exasperation Thursday at the U.S. government’s secret detention of an American citizen in Iraq for more than two months.

www.latimes.com

McCain says American Citizens Can Be Sent to Guantanamo

The National Defense Authorization Act would empower the President to detain U.S. citizens indefinitely, anywhere in the world.

progressive.org

Except they don't pay higher taxes... they pay a lower rate with lots of deductions.



God didn't tell them anything, that was the voices in their heads. We have medications for that now. God's laws aren't a buffet. you can't just pick and chose the ones you want to follow. So get a bucket of rocks and if you see your neighbors doing any yardwork, you know what to do.

You mean a couple of parents showed up at the meeting an protested books, as opposed to white Christians, who support shit like "Don't say gay" laws.

No, I mean the majority of the people there were from the local Muslim community.

Muslim Protesters Shut Down Michigan School-Board Meeting over LGBTQ Books | National Review

‘Keep Your Dirty Books in the Closet,’ ‘Stop Grooming Our Kids,’ and ‘Homosexuality Big Sin,’ read some of the signs carried by protesters.

www.nationalreview.com

Again... Muslims just want to be left alone. Christians are the ones trying to impose their will on the rest of us.

Again, Christian’s just want to be left alone. Let’s see some videos of gay people trying to get a Muslim business to do work for a gay event and we’ll probably see the pushback from them as well.

Phillips wasn’t trying to impose his will on anyone..if anything, the lawsuits and harassment by the gay couple is indication they were trying ti impose their will on Phillips, something that you have indicated you are very much in favor of.

You have far more faith in your fellow man than I do. Heck, Trump says "Kung Flu" and his Nazis go around beating little old Asian ladies and shooting up massage parlors. I would shudder to think what happens if China really did present a threat.

Dude…you’ll always have crazy people do stupid stuff, but the government is not going to go out and round up Chinese or Muslim Americans and put them in detention camps

Nope, we sent American citizens to Gitmo and rendered them to black sites.

Judge pushes U.S. to explain why it's holding an American citizen in secret in Iraq

In a case that defense lawyers warned could create a “constitutional black hole,” a federal judge expressed exasperation Thursday at the U.S. government’s secret detention of an American citizen in Iraq for more than two months.

www.latimes.com

McCain says American Citizens Can Be Sent to Guantanamo

The National Defense Authorization Act would empower the President to detain U.S. citizens indefinitely, anywhere in the world.

progressive.org

You are talking about one American….who went and fought for the Islamic state…and they detained him because we had just been the victim of a terrorist attack….from Muslims…….

And yes, if you are found guilty of committing terroristic attacks on the US, you’ll probably get sent to gitmo….you have a problem with this?

This is not in any way an indicator that the US government will round up American citizens of foreign descent if another country attacks us.

Except they don't pay higher taxes... they pay a lower rate with lots of deductions.

They pay a lower rate because of the deductions, but still, the raw dollar amount isn’t comparable. Still, communities give tax breaks to attract businesses, but, they still pay taxes for those services. Just because a business gets a tax deduction doesn’t mean they are subsidized by the people.

Plus, when you’re talking about small businesses, like Phillips, you have the added strain of having to compete with bigger stores, not to mention, big businesses tend to get the lions share of actual state subsidies.

And, at the end of the day, none of that matters, because there’s no tax penalty to exercising your cotus freedoms. They get the same tax breaks that any other business in their category does.

God didn't tell them anything, that was the voices in their heads. We have medications for that now. God's laws aren't a buffet. you can't just pick and chose the ones you want to follow. So get a bucket of rocks and if you see your neighbors doing any yardwork, you know what to do.

He didn’t? That’s what the Bible says….

Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

So, yeah, if God tells you to do something, it doesn’t mean that your neighbor can come out and just do it.

By the way, I notice that masterpiece cake shop is closed on sundays..so looks like he’s observing that practice too.

 

[JoeB131]

Phillips wasn’t trying to impose his will on anyone..if anything, the lawsuits and harassment by the gay couple is indication they were trying ti impose their will on Phillips, something that you have indicated you are very much in favor of.

Well, yeah, he actually was by denying service and fighting a law to protect gay people.

Dude…you’ll always have crazy people do stupid stuff, but the government is not going to go out and round up Chinese or Muslim Americans and put them in detention camps

Except it wasn't crazy people, it was the US government with the enthusiastic backing of most Americans at the time. Hence, no rights. Just privileges that were revoked.

You are talking about one American….who went and fought for the Islamic state…and they detained him because we had just been the victim of a terrorist attack….from Muslims…….

And yes, if you are found guilty of committing terroristic attacks on the US, you’ll probably get sent to gitmo….you have a problem with this?

I have a huge problem with Gitmo in general.

If these people broke American laws, they should be tried in an American court, in accordance with the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th Amendments.

If these people are prisoners of war, then they should be handled within the confines of the Geneva Conventions. Which means you are only allowed to ask their name, rank, serial number, (no waterboarding), and their condition in POW camps should be monitored by third party neutral nation. And at some point, you declare hostilities over and release them. (When does a "War on Terror" end, exactly? When you aren't scared anymore?)

They pay a lower rate because of the deductions, but still, the raw dollar amount isn’t comparable. Still, communities give tax breaks to attract businesses, but, they still pay taxes for those services. Just because a business gets a tax deduction doesn’t mean they are subsidized by the people.

Plus, when you’re talking about small businesses, like Phillips, you have the added strain of having to compete with bigger stores, not to mention, big businesses tend to get the lions share of actual state subsidies.

Boo fucking hoo. I guess that makes him pretty stupid for alienating potential customers. I mean, shit, I run a small business, and I wouldn't care if you were a Mormon wearing a MAGA hat, I'd still take your money!

DO you know why? Because when I am running my business, I check my religious and political views at the door.

I did have one customer who right after the 2016 election, wanted me to write him a resume so he could apply for a job with the new Trump Administration. To be fair, I told him I had actually voted for Hillary, but I would still be happy to do his resume, and he would get the same best effort I give every other customer.

He elected to go with someone else. No harm, no foul.

Now, if Philips had done something like that, said "My religion believes gay marriage is wrong, but you will still get my best efforts because I see a line between my business and my life", then I don't see an issue. I doubt the gay couple would have even insisted on buying a cake there.

And, at the end of the day, none of that matters, because there’s no tax penalty to exercising your cotus freedoms. They get the same tax breaks that any other business in their category does.

And they have to obey the same laws all other business do, becuase businesses don't have religion.

By the way, I notice that masterpiece cake shop is closed on sundays..so looks like he’s observing that practice too.

OR he just doesn't get any business on Sunday.

 

[HeyNorm]

Nothing to do with Commies, bud.

This man has a business that offers a service. The law says he can't discriminate on the basis of race, religion, national origin, gender, disability or sexual orientation.

Which he didn’t. Have you found the same sex straight couple he’s made a cake for.

When you do, you have a case.

Till then, your just a feckless child.

 

[JoeB131]

Which he didn’t. Have you found the same sex straight couple he’s made a cake for.

Shush, the grownups are talking.

 

[HeyNorm]

Shush, the grownups are talking.

Guess the answer is no, huh Joe?

 

[ThisIsMe]

Well, yeah, he actually was by denying service and fighting a law to protect gay people.



Except it wasn't crazy people, it was the US government with the enthusiastic backing of most Americans at the time. Hence, no rights. Just privileges that were revoked.



I have a huge problem with Gitmo in general.

If these people broke American laws, they should be tried in an American court, in accordance with the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th Amendments.

If these people are prisoners of war, then they should be handled within the confines of the Geneva Conventions. Which means you are only allowed to ask their name, rank, serial number, (no waterboarding), and their condition in POW camps should be monitored by third party neutral nation. And at some point, you declare hostilities over and release them. (When does a "War on Terror" end, exactly? When you aren't scared anymore?)





Boo fucking hoo. I guess that makes him pretty stupid for alienating potential customers. I mean, shit, I run a small business, and I wouldn't care if you were a Mormon wearing a MAGA hat, I'd still take your money!

DO you know why? Because when I am running my business, I check my religious and political views at the door.

I did have one customer who right after the 2016 election, wanted me to write him a resume so he could apply for a job with the new Trump Administration. To be fair, I told him I had actually voted for Hillary, but I would still be happy to do his resume, and he would get the same best effort I give every other customer.

He elected to go with someone else. No harm, no foul.

Now, if Philips had done something like that, said "My religion believes gay marriage is wrong, but you will still get my best efforts because I see a line between my business and my life", then I don't see an issue. I doubt the gay couple would have even insisted on buying a cake there.



And they have to obey the same laws all other business do, becuase businesses don't have religion.


OR he just doesn't get any business on Sunday.

Well, yeah, he actually was by denying service and fighting a law to protect gay people.

He wasn’t fighting a law, he was fighting a lawsuit, because people were trying to take away his cotus rights.

Except it wasn't crazy people, it was the US government with the enthusiastic backing of most Americans at the time. Hence, no rights. Just privileges that were revoked.

You’re trying to compare a few crazies who beat up some Asians to the government rounding up Asian and Muslim Americans because some other country attacks us. This is a different time, those thing don’t happen anymore…unless they themselves are helping the country commit terrorism.

If these people broke American laws, they should be tried in an American court, in accordance with the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th Amendments.

If these people are prisoners of war, then they should be handled within the confines of the Geneva Conventions. Which means you are only allowed to ask their name, rank, serial number, (no waterboarding), and their condition in POW camps should be monitored by third party neutral nation. And at some point, you declare hostilities over and release them. (When does a "War on Terror" end, exactly? When you aren't scared anymore?)

I agree, all detainees need to be treated according to the laws, but your original point was that Muslim and Chinese citizens were rounded up…and you linked an article about Americans who had went and fought for the Islamic state. Yes, they all need to have their due process, but, also yes, if our country is attacked by someone from a Muslim country, and you fought for that country…chances are you are going to be rounded up.

That last sentence…I’m going to assume you meant people who were not found to be a part of the terrorism plot should be released…..

Boo fucking hoo. I guess that makes him pretty stupid for alienating potential customers. I mean, shit, I run a small business, and I wouldn't care if you were a Mormon wearing a MAGA hat, I'd still take your money!

DO you know why? Because when I am running my business, I check my religious and political views at the door.

He’s not alienating anyone, I’m sure he will take anyone later money, just don’t ask him to violate his cotus rights.

You’d check your religious views? What religious views? You’ve made it fairly clear you don’t believe in any religion.

Now, if Philips had done something like that, said "My religion believes gay marriage is wrong, but you will still get my best efforts because I see a line between my business and my life", then I don't see an issue. I doubt the gay couple would have even insisted on buying a cake there.

But that’s the whole point, Phillips believes that by him creating something for a specific purpose would be like him doing something in service to that event, that he could not do. What you are suggesting is him having to compromise his cotus freedoms.

And they have to obey the same laws all other business do, becuase businesses don't have religion.

Yeah, but he works for his business, so, you can’t ask him to do something to violate his religious rights. Also, technically, since he owns the business, if his business did the wedding, it would have to come at his approval, which still has the same net ending.

OR he just doesn't get any business on Sunday.

OR he just observes the religious practices of not operating on Sunday.

 

[JoeB131]

He wasn’t fighting a law, he was fighting a lawsuit, because people were trying to take away his cotus rights.

No, he was appealling the law, because the minute the human rights commission pointed out the law he violated, he should have so, "Oh, my bad" and that should have been the end of it.

You’re trying to compare a few crazies who beat up some Asians to the government rounding up Asian and Muslim Americans because some other country attacks us. This is a different time, those thing don’t happen anymore…unless they themselves are helping the country commit terrorism.

They don't happen until the next time they happen. Have we put anyone on trial for waterboarding yet?

I agree, all detainees need to be treated according to the laws, but your original point was that Muslim and Chinese citizens were rounded up…and you linked an article about Americans who had went and fought for the Islamic state. Yes, they all need to have their due process, but, also yes, if our country is attacked by someone from a Muslim country, and you fought for that country…chances are you are going to be rounded up.

So proving my point. There are no rights, only privileges, which can be revoked at any time.

He’s not alienating anyone, I’m sure he will take anyone later money, just don’t ask him to violate his cotus rights.

You’d check your religious views? What religious views? You’ve made it fairly clear you don’t believe in any religion.

Which is a religious view, which I don't share with my customers. I actually- get this - just get right down to business.

But that’s the whole point, Phillips believes that by him creating something for a specific purpose would be like him doing something in service to that event, that he could not do. What you are suggesting is him having to compromise his cotus freedoms.

He is running a public accommedation. He gave up his "Freedoms" the minute he opened a business and agreed to follow all the state, federal and municipal laws.

Yeah, but he works for his business, so, you can’t ask him to do something to violate his religious rights. Also, technically, since he owns the business, if his business did the wedding, it would have to come at his approval, which still has the same net ending.

Bullshit. He drops the cake off at the venue. He's not participating in the ceremony.

 

[HeyNorm]

No, he was appealling the law, because the minute the human rights commission pointed out the law he violated, he should have so, "Oh, my bad" and that should have been the end of it.



They don't happen until the next time they happen. Have we put anyone on trial for waterboarding yet?



So proving my point. There are no rights, only privileges, which can be revoked at any time.


Which is a religious view, which I don't share with my customers. I actually- get this - just get right down to business.



He is running a public accommedation. He gave up his "Freedoms" the minute he opened a business and agreed to follow all the state, federal and municipal laws.



Bullshit. He drops the cake off at the venue. He's not participating in the ceremony.

Until you prove he’s supplied a cake for a same sex straight wedding your just a cry baby.

 

[ThisIsMe2]

No, he was appealling the law, because the minute the human rights commission pointed out the law he violated, he should have so, "Oh, my bad" and that should have been the end of it.



They don't happen until the next time they happen. Have we put anyone on trial for waterboarding yet?



So proving my point. There are no rights, only privileges, which can be revoked at any time.


Which is a religious view, which I don't share with my customers. I actually- get this - just get right down to business.



He is running a public accommedation. He gave up his "Freedoms" the minute he opened a business and agreed to follow all the state, federal and municipal laws.



Bullshit. He drops the cake off at the venue. He's not participating in the ceremony.

I see that we are not going to agree, there’s no point in arguing this anymore. You don’t value cotus rights if they go against your beliefs, and that’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their own views, but they are not entitled to infringe in others rights.

 

[JoeB131]

I see that we are not going to agree, there’s no point in arguing this anymore. You don’t value cotus rights if they go against your beliefs, and that’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their own views, but they are not entitled to infringe in others rights.

It took you ten days to think about it?
Uh, yeah, guy, not a Constitutional issue. Congress can't pass a law restricting Philips right to believe in Sky Fairies.
But his business has to follow business rules.

 

[ThisIsMe2]

It took you ten days to think about it?
Uh, yeah, guy, not a Constitutional issue. Congress can't pass a law restricting Philips right to believe in Sky Fairies.
But his business has to follow business rules.

No, just didn’t feel like responding for 10 days.

But his business has to follow business rules.

Again, I disagree. Because Phillips would be the one doing the work, or his business, he has the right to exercise his cotus rights to not participate.

This is why I think there is no point to this thread any more. I can only explain it so many ways and I end up repeating myself. We just fundamentally disagree about the meaning of freedom of religion, and that’s ok, we don’t have to agree. I just don’t think we’re going to gain any ground in making the other see their side of the argument.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, I disagree. Because Phillips would be the one doing the work, or his business, he has the right to exercise his cotus rights to not participate.

Then he always has the option to close down his store, attend a seminary, and get right with Jesus.

This is why I think there is no point to this thread any more. I can only explain it so many ways and I end up repeating myself. We just fundamentally disagree about the meaning of freedom of religion, and that’s ok, we don’t have to agree. I just don’t think we’re going to gain any ground in making the other see their side of the argument.

Yes, you can only make the same stupid arguments about how the first amendment gives you the right to break laws you don't like if you claim to be pleasing your Cloud Pixie.

It just comes off as laughable because we can't operate commerce that way. WHich is why SCOTUS will wiffle on this again.

 

[ThisIsMe]

Then he always has the option to close down his store, attend a seminary, and get right with Jesus.


Yes, you can only make the same stupid arguments about how the first amendment gives you the right to break laws you don't like if you claim to be pleasing your Cloud Pixie.

It just comes off as laughable because we can't operate commerce that way. WHich is why SCOTUS will wiffle on this again.

Then he always has the option to close down his store, attend a seminary, and get right with Jesus.

Or, they gay couple can respect his rights and move on to the many other bakeries in the area.

Yes, you can only make the same stupid arguments about how the first amendment gives you the right to break laws you don't like if you claim to be pleasing your Cloud Pixie.

Only one argument is needed. Do we have a cotus or not? Does legislation overrule cotus protections or not? You think it does because you don’t believe in religion, so it’s irrelevant to you and thus not worthy of consideration. That’s fine, but the cotus disagrees with you.

 

[JoeB131]

Or, they gay couple can respect his rights and move on to the many other bakeries in the area.

He doesn't have any rights. He has a business, and the business has to follow the law.

Only one argument is needed. Do we have a cotus or not? Does legislation overrule cotus protections or not? You think it does because you don’t believe in religion, so it’s irrelevant to you and thus not worthy of consideration. That’s fine, but the cotus disagrees with you.

You are perfectly free to beleive in any imaginary sky friends you want to.
You don't have the right to impose that on the rest of us.

 

[ThisIsMe]

He doesn't have any rights. He has a business, and the business has to follow the law.



You are perfectly free to beleive in any imaginary sky friends you want to.
You don't have the right to impose that on the rest of us.

Nobody is imposing their views on anyone. He’s not trying to convert them, if anything, it’s the gay couple trying to impose themselves on to the baker.

You’re right, he has a business, but he runs that business, so it is him, or someone who works for him who would have to do the labor. In this case, I believe it would have been him.

We’ve been down this road a dozen times at least. Neither of us are going to budge. Shall we keep rehashing the same argument a dozen more times?

 

[pknopp]

Or, they gay couple can respect his rights and move on to the many other bakeries in the area.



Only one argument is needed. Do we have a cotus or not? Does legislation overrule cotus protections or not? You think it does because you don’t believe in religion, so it’s irrelevant to you and thus not worthy of consideration. That’s fine, but the cotus disagrees with you.

No, there is more than one argument here. I've stayed away from this thread but the point I brought up many times earlier has never been addressed.

Why the hate out of a guy who says he is a Christian?

Customer: I'd like a pink and blue cake to celebrate my transitioning.

Baker: I can have that Thursday.

Customer: I'm here for my cake.

Baker: Here you go. By the way, I see you are local? Do you have a local church? If not, I would like to invite you to mine.

Has nothing to do with laws.

 

[JoeB131]

Nobody is imposing their views on anyone. He’s not trying to convert them, if anything, it’s the gay couple trying to impose themselves on to the baker.

You’re right, he has a business, but he runs that business, so it is him, or someone who works for him who would have to do the labor. In this case, I believe it would have been him.

We’ve been down this road a dozen times at least. Neither of us are going to budge. Shall we keep rehashing the same argument a dozen more times?

He runs a public accommodation. By refusing service, he is imposing his religious views.

What you guys don't seem to get is that Public Accommodation laws also protect the religious, which is why I can't refuse service to Mormons and heap abuse on them about how Joseph Smith was a child molester.