Confirmation Bias; Why Atheists cant see the Evidence for God

[sealybobo]

It is hilarious to watch the news and see a President who claims the border is sealed and secure against ISIS and yet unaccompanied children can get across it. The children just don't count somehow to support the view that the border is NOT secure. The feds deny that radical Islamicist groups are the primary source for terrorism, and so a violent radical Jihadist who shot a bunch of people at Fort Hood screaming 'Allah Akbar!' and who recently asked ISIS to let him be an honorary citizen of the Caliphate was not a terrorist, and the shooting just 'work place violence'.

But those are just a few glaring examples of confirmation bias, a thing where people insist on putting what they perceive into nice neat little pigeon holes defined by an ideology or inflexible philosophy.

There is an old 16th century story of three blind men who are feeling parts of an elephant, an animal that they have never seen and have no idea exists, and one feels the leg and says it is a tree, the other feels the trunk and says it is a vine, another feels the belly and says there is a bolder above him. When told that it is all one great big huge animal they laugh and say the narrator is deluded.

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

I looked up the definition of faith and it said: Faith can be defined as belief that is not based on proof.

Just realize that religion admits you have to have faith because as far as proof goes they got nuthin.

 

[dblack]

And I can't wait till we find the answers to all your questions if we ever do. But until we do, to claim it is a god, donate 10% of your earnings to a church, tell people they are going to hell if they don't believe, go around telling people your theories, killing people for not converting as muslims do, or telling people characters named Jesus Moses, Noah and Adam did impossible things, etc.

Our very uneducated ancient primitive unevolved ancestors came up with god. We are much smarter now yet too many of us continue to cling to this god concept. Stop it.

PS. We were talking earlier about theists shoving their god in our faces and us atheists basically leave others alone. A theist denied they do it. Well guess what? I just got a pamphlet on my car. Unlock Revelation. Every Eye will see him.

What will you get if you go to their bible camps?

1. How can I find peace and be sure of eternal life?
2. What really happens after death?
3. What will happen before the end of the world?
4. What role does the USA play in bible prophecy?
5. Truth about the rapture
6 Are heaven and hell real?

Dr. Julie Hayek is the speaker. A doctor of what?

Anyways, I'm going to start printing atheist material and when I see a kid I'm going to give it to him or her and fuck what his parents think. I don't know if it is god but something is telling me to spread the truth or at least expose the lies.

Sure. Don't get me wrong. I don't deny that our current use of religion is malignant. But I don't think it's as simple as a deliberate invention to control society. I honestly suspect that the religious impulse, the sense that there is a greater "consciousness" behind our own, is a fundamental fact of human social evolution, and perhaps even a prerequisite to individual consciousness.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It is hilarious to watch the news and see a President who claims the border is sealed and secure against ISIS and yet unaccompanied children can get across it. The children just don't count somehow to support the view that the border is NOT secure. The feds deny that radical Islamicist groups are the primary source for terrorism, and so a violent radical Jihadist who shot a bunch of people at Fort Hood screaming 'Allah Akbar!' and who recently asked ISIS to let him be an honorary citizen of the Caliphate was not a terrorist, and the shooting just 'work place violence'.

But those are just a few glaring examples of confirmation bias, a thing where people insist on putting what they perceive into nice neat little pigeon holes defined by an ideology or inflexible philosophy.

There is an old 16th century story of three blind men who are feeling parts of an elephant, an animal that they have never seen and have no idea exists, and one feels the leg and says it is a tree, the other feels the trunk and says it is a vine, another feels the belly and says there is a bolder above him. When told that it is all one great big huge animal they laugh and say the narrator is deluded.

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

I looked up the definition of faith and it said: Faith can be defined as belief that is not based on proof.

Just realize that religion admits you have to have faith because as far as proof goes they got nuthin.

Lol, and you 'realized' an error, all due to your running confirmation bias app on your brain OS.

There is proof, not scientific proof, since science cannot apply to extra-natural events, but evidence is available in the form of mathematical descriptions that fit the known facts of our universe, etc.

That you don't let yourself see the proof doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[JimBowie1958]

And I can't wait till we find the answers to all your questions if we ever do. But until we do, to claim it is a god, donate 10% of your earnings to a church, tell people they are going to hell if they don't believe, go around telling people your theories, killing people for not converting as muslims do, or telling people characters named Jesus Moses, Noah and Adam did impossible things, etc.

Our very uneducated ancient primitive unevolved ancestors came up with god. We are much smarter now yet too many of us continue to cling to this god concept. Stop it.

PS. We were talking earlier about theists shoving their god in our faces and us atheists basically leave others alone. A theist denied they do it. Well guess what? I just got a pamphlet on my car. Unlock Revelation. Every Eye will see him.

What will you get if you go to their bible camps?

1. How can I find peace and be sure of eternal life?
2. What really happens after death?
3. What will happen before the end of the world?
4. What role does the USA play in bible prophecy?
5. Truth about the rapture
6 Are heaven and hell real?

Dr. Julie Hayek is the speaker. A doctor of what?

Anyways, I'm going to start printing atheist material and when I see a kid I'm going to give it to him or her and fuck what his parents think. I don't know if it is god but something is telling me to spread the truth or at least expose the lies.

Sure. Don't get me wrong. I don't deny that our current use of religion is malignant. But I don't think it's as simple as a deliberate invention to control society. I honestly suspect that the religious impulse, the sense that there is a greater "consciousness" behind our own, is a fundamental fact of human social evolution, and perhaps even a prerequisite to individual consciousness.

So Aristotle, Plato. Thomas Aquinas and all just blew smoke out of their ass?

roflmao

 

[JimBowie1958]

And I can't wait till we find the answers to all your questions if we ever do. But until we do, to claim it is a god, donate 10% of your earnings to a church, tell people they are going to hell if they don't believe, go around telling people your theories, killing people for not converting as muslims do, or telling people characters named Jesus Moses, Noah and Adam did impossible things, etc.

The vast majority of Christendom does not teach people will go to hell if they do not worship God.

Our very uneducated ancient primitive unevolved ancestors came up with god. We are much smarter now yet too many of us continue to cling to this god concept. Stop it.

Plato and Aristotle were not uneducated, you stupid shit. That is another fucking lie from your bullshit vent under your nose. Stop it.

. We were talking earlier about theists shoving their god in our faces and us atheists basically leave others alone.

Bullshit. This is a forum on religion and YOU atheists shove your disbelief in OUR faces.

And it is all just posturing nonsense anyway; you don't know a damned thing about religion except for what you glean from your Atheist Chick tracts.

A theist denied they do it. Well guess what? I just got a pamphlet on my car. Unlock Revelation. Every Eye will see him.

What will you get if you go to their bible camps?

1. How can I find peace and be sure of eternal life?
2. What really happens after death?
3. What will happen before the end of the world?
4. What role does the USA play in bible prophecy?
5. Truth about the rapture
6 Are heaven and hell real?

Dr. Julie Hayek is the speaker. A doctor of what?

Who gives a fuck? She is just another Protestant loon, IMO. Most Protestants are rational, most are faithful, but finding the few that have both qualities is the catch.

Anyways, I'm going to start printing atheist material and when I see a kid I'm going to give it to him or her and fuck what his parents think. I don't know if it is god but something is telling me to spread the truth or at least expose the lies.

lol, as if....

 

[JimBowie1958]

It is hilarious to watch the news and see a President who claims the border is sealed and secure against ISIS and yet unaccompanied children can get across it. The children just don't count somehow to support the view that the border is NOT secure. The feds deny that radical Islamicist groups are the primary source for terrorism, and so a violent radical Jihadist who shot a bunch of people at Fort Hood screaming 'Allah Akbar!' and who recently asked ISIS to let him be an honorary citizen of the Caliphate was not a terrorist, and the shooting just 'work place violence'.

But those are just a few glaring examples of confirmation bias, a thing where people insist on putting what they perceive into nice neat little pigeon holes defined by an ideology or inflexible philosophy.

There is an old 16th century story of three blind men who are feeling parts of an elephant, an animal that they have never seen and have no idea exists, and one feels the leg and says it is a tree, the other feels the trunk and says it is a vine, another feels the belly and says there is a bolder above him. When told that it is all one great big huge animal they laugh and say the narrator is deluded.

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

Accepting something on faith does not demonstrate an open mind just one willing to follow the whims and beliefs of others.

Just because we may not know the origin of something does not necessarily mean a supreme being is responsible. it could be that we are simply incapable of understanding it given out limited sensory and cognitive abilities..

I consider myself an agnostic with atheist leanings but if I saw proof with my own eyes that there was a supreme being I would be compelled to believe. Some of you are willing to believe without such proof but I am not wired that way

Faith alone is sufficient to please God, otherwise the stupid would have no chance for salvation. But yes, these are people who accept their faith in a child's way, trusting those in authority around them.

But the evidence, reason and life experiences are there to lead one to believe, and if it is not so, and you honestly have found no evidence to believe in God, God does not call you to fake having faith.

For me, the strongest evidence has been the lives of believers compared to nonbelievers of similar background, the believers over all have fewer brushes with the law, fewer divorces, fewer addictions to drugs, etc. In fact AA has at its core values a belief and reliance on God that WORKS to help people beat their addiction. Compared to secular organizations, AA is way more effective in ending the plague of alcoholism in these peoples lives.

I heard a man once say that he has not seen Jesus turn water into wine, but he has seen Him act in peoples lives and turn wine into paid bills, a happy family and a peaceful contentment with life that they had never had before. I knew exactly what he meant, but my problem wasn't alcohol, and I don't want to discuss it, but yes, the power of faith is incredible, even when I didn't want it to happen to me.

Once I found a desire to know the Truth of what is Reality in my autistic obsessive way, I dug and dug and dug into the subject and I found much evidence of God's existence that previously I had attributed to circumstance or evolution. The funniest thing is to look at the design in living cells and say that it was complete chance that made them that way. Evolution was the tool God used, but He did not directly intervene. He made it the way He knew would work and let it grow on its own accord.

Using evolution to explain away the obvious design in the universe is like saying you cannot see the maker who is behind the chisel. Evolution is the chisel, but God's Hand guides it.

The fact that time must have had a beginning, that any eternal object responsible for the universe had to be infinite and have intelligence (set of all possible sets) and daily life with Christians and atheist in contrast....I have faith as much due to the absence of it in some as the presence of it in others.

But you have to make your own choices, obviously, and what may seem obvious to me might seem bewildering to a person who does not have those same experiences. Just be honest with yourself, treat the people in your life with respect/honesty/integrity and keep an open mind and watchful eye for God to get your attention,

I doubt he will fail you.

I don't buy your list of lifestyle choices as proof that god exists.

Lol, can we get a better example of confirmation bias than you reading all that and blowing it all off as 'life style choices'?

I doubt it.

But just stop it with the posturing that you are some kind of Truth seeker. You obviously are not.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

A particular standard of evidence is required to prove any claim. This ‘standard’ is adjusted depending upon the nature of the claim. Since god’s existence is an extraordinary claim, perhaps the most extraordinary claim, proving it requires equally extraordinary evidence.

I am not responding to all your crap, but I will respond to this one as the epitome of your irrationality.

No, extraordinary claims do NOT demand extraordinary evidence. They require exactly the SAME evidence as any other proposition. This demand for extraordinary evidence is the very example of what confirmation bias is and how it works, duh.

Ok, show me any good evidence a god exists. Evidence a scientist would accept. If you can't, piss off.

Lol, you are an idiot.

Science CANNOT prove anything not of the natural world, so your whole claim to want evidence is a shallow hypocrisy of posturing for results you have deliberately set up to fail.

Evidence used in criminal trials, civil courts, the kind of evidence that inform our choices we all have to make every single day is not 100% scientific. If you weren't such a gibbering fool you would know that.

There is a HUGE accumulation of historical, circumstantial, and eye witness events that prove God exists, and you look a total jack ass ignoring it all.

Really? Do you believe god talked to Mohammad or Joseph Smith and told them all the things they say he told them?

So you are an atheist too. You just happen to believe in one more god than I do.

When you realize your religion is just as made up as all the other religions, come talk to me.

No, you display your ignorance yet again.

I reject polytheistic gods for reasons you do not understand, and accept the Creator for reasons in stark contrast to you ignotheism.

There is a truth and reality independent of our desires. Faith simply reinforces your belief in what you would like to be true, rather than what really is.

In order to better under understand this reality and discover the truth we must look for evidence outside ourselves.

Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

In your bigoted opinion, perhaps.

Evidence is found in our daily lives and is as much justification for faith as any mathematical theorem.

That's your problem. Those things you think are god are not. When you see a beautiful sunset you think, "there must be a god". That sunset is not proof of god.

When people do good things that is not god. When people do bad that is not the devil.

Do you believe in the devil? The literal one or have you bastardized that concept too in order for it to make sense in your mind? I use to do the same thing. I tried to make sense of the lies and figure out the true meaning but then it dawned on me. Maybe the entire thing is made up???

Have you considered that 'made up' doesn't necessarily mean 'not real'?

Explain.

I've done a lot of reading on the nature of consciousness - the mind, etc. The theories that make the most sense to me characterize the human mind as, essentially, software that runs in a brain. Once you accept that core concept, that what we 'really' are isn't physical, but rather a specifically organized system of information, it's not a great leap to see gods as distributed versions of the same kind of entity. In fact, I take seriously the idea that gods are, in fact, prerequisites for human minds - inasmuch as they represent the communal consciousness that informs individual identity.

The human mind is capable of choosing which data to ignore and which to focus on, all without anything making it rewrite code, or making a choice that is directly contrary to its installed code or every instinct to survive.

IF you focus your mind you can make it do whatever you want it to, which is certainly not characteristic of computer code.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It is hilarious to watch the news and see a President who claims the border is sealed and secure against ISIS and yet unaccompanied children can get across it. The children just don't count somehow to support the view that the border is NOT secure. The feds deny that radical Islamicist groups are the primary source for terrorism, and so a violent radical Jihadist who shot a bunch of people at Fort Hood screaming 'Allah Akbar!' and who recently asked ISIS to let him be an honorary citizen of the Caliphate was not a terrorist, and the shooting just 'work place violence'.

But those are just a few glaring examples of confirmation bias, a thing where people insist on putting what they perceive into nice neat little pigeon holes defined by an ideology or inflexible philosophy.

There is an old 16th century story of three blind men who are feeling parts of an elephant, an animal that they have never seen and have no idea exists, and one feels the leg and says it is a tree, the other feels the trunk and says it is a vine, another feels the belly and says there is a bolder above him. When told that it is all one great big huge animal they laugh and say the narrator is deluded.

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

Accepting something on faith does not demonstrate an open mind just one willing to follow the whims and beliefs of others.

Just because we may not know the origin of something does not necessarily mean a supreme being is responsible. it could be that we are simply incapable of understanding it given out limited sensory and cognitive abilities..

I consider myself an agnostic with atheist leanings but if I saw proof with my own eyes that there was a supreme being I would be compelled to believe. Some of you are willing to believe without such proof but I am not wired that way

Faith alone is sufficient to please God, otherwise the stupid would have no chance for salvation. But yes, these are people who accept their faith in a child's way, trusting those in authority around them.

But the evidence, reason and life experiences are there to lead one to believe, and if it is not so, and you honestly have found no evidence to believe in God, God does not call you to fake having faith.

For me, the strongest evidence has been the lives of believers compared to nonbelievers of similar background, the believers over all have fewer brushes with the law, fewer divorces, fewer addictions to drugs, etc. In fact AA has at its core values a belief and reliance on God that WORKS to help people beat their addiction. Compared to secular organizations, AA is way more effective in ending the plague of alcoholism in these peoples lives.

I heard a man once say that he has not seen Jesus turn water into wine, but he has seen Him act in peoples lives and turn wine into paid bills, a happy family and a peaceful contentment with life that they had never had before. I knew exactly what he meant, but my problem wasn't alcohol, and I don't want to discuss it, but yes, the power of faith is incredible, even when I didn't want it to happen to me.

Once I found a desire to know the Truth of what is Reality in my autistic obsessive way, I dug and dug and dug into the subject and I found much evidence of God's existence that previously I had attributed to circumstance or evolution. The funniest thing is to look at the design in living cells and say that it was complete chance that made them that way. Evolution was the tool God used, but He did not directly intervene. He made it the way He knew would work and let it grow on its own accord.

Using evolution to explain away the obvious design in the universe is like saying you cannot see the maker who is behind the chisel. Evolution is the chisel, but God's Hand guides it.

The fact that time must have had a beginning, that any eternal object responsible for the universe had to be infinite and have intelligence (set of all possible sets) and daily life with Christians and atheist in contrast....I have faith as much due to the absence of it in some as the presence of it in others.

But you have to make your own choices, obviously, and what may seem obvious to me might seem bewildering to a person who does not have those same experiences. Just be honest with yourself, treat the people in your life with respect/honesty/integrity and keep an open mind and watchful eye for God to get your attention,

I doubt he will fail you.

I don't buy your list of lifestyle choices as proof that god exists.

Lol, can we get a better example of confirmation bias than you reading all that and blowing it all off as 'life style choices'?

I doubt it.

But just stop it with the posturing that you are some kind of Truth seeker. You obviously are not.

Where did I ever once mention truth or seeking it?

FYI plenty of believers drink and drug to excess so tell me how is that proof that a god exists?

And you just reiterated that not knowing something is proof of a supreme being.

It's not.

We might never be able to understand the origin of the universe because we are too limited cognitively to do so that is not proof of a supreme being.

 

[sealybobo]

It is hilarious to watch the news and see a President who claims the border is sealed and secure against ISIS and yet unaccompanied children can get across it. The children just don't count somehow to support the view that the border is NOT secure. The feds deny that radical Islamicist groups are the primary source for terrorism, and so a violent radical Jihadist who shot a bunch of people at Fort Hood screaming 'Allah Akbar!' and who recently asked ISIS to let him be an honorary citizen of the Caliphate was not a terrorist, and the shooting just 'work place violence'.

But those are just a few glaring examples of confirmation bias, a thing where people insist on putting what they perceive into nice neat little pigeon holes defined by an ideology or inflexible philosophy.

There is an old 16th century story of three blind men who are feeling parts of an elephant, an animal that they have never seen and have no idea exists, and one feels the leg and says it is a tree, the other feels the trunk and says it is a vine, another feels the belly and says there is a bolder above him. When told that it is all one great big huge animal they laugh and say the narrator is deluded.

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

I looked up the definition of faith and it said: Faith can be defined as belief that is not based on proof.

Just realize that religion admits you have to have faith because as far as proof goes they got nuthin.

Lol, and you 'realized' an error, all due to your running confirmation bias app on your brain OS.

There is proof, not scientific proof, since science cannot apply to extra-natural events, but evidence is available in the form of mathematical descriptions that fit the known facts of our universe, etc.

That you don't let yourself see the proof doesn't mean it isn't there.

You said "evidence is available in the form of mathematical descriptions that fit the known facts of our universe".

Expound if you will. That means to present and explain (a theory or idea) systematically and in detail.

 

[sealybobo]

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

A particular standard of evidence is required to prove any claim. This ‘standard’ is adjusted depending upon the nature of the claim. Since god’s existence is an extraordinary claim, perhaps the most extraordinary claim, proving it requires equally extraordinary evidence.

I am not responding to all your crap, but I will respond to this one as the epitome of your irrationality.

No, extraordinary claims do NOT demand extraordinary evidence. They require exactly the SAME evidence as any other proposition. This demand for extraordinary evidence is the very example of what confirmation bias is and how it works, duh.

Ok, show me any good evidence a god exists. Evidence a scientist would accept. If you can't, piss off.

Lol, you are an idiot.

Science CANNOT prove anything not of the natural world, so your whole claim to want evidence is a shallow hypocrisy of posturing for results you have deliberately set up to fail.

Evidence used in criminal trials, civil courts, the kind of evidence that inform our choices we all have to make every single day is not 100% scientific. If you weren't such a gibbering fool you would know that.

There is a HUGE accumulation of historical, circumstantial, and eye witness events that prove God exists, and you look a total jack ass ignoring it all.

Really? Do you believe god talked to Mohammad or Joseph Smith and told them all the things they say he told them?

So you are an atheist too. You just happen to believe in one more god than I do.

When you realize your religion is just as made up as all the other religions, come talk to me.

No, you display your ignorance yet again.

I reject polytheistic gods for reasons you do not understand, and accept the Creator for reasons in stark contrast to you ignotheism.

There is a truth and reality independent of our desires. Faith simply reinforces your belief in what you would like to be true, rather than what really is.

In order to better under understand this reality and discover the truth we must look for evidence outside ourselves.

Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

In your bigoted opinion, perhaps.

Evidence is found in our daily lives and is as much justification for faith as any mathematical theorem.

That's your problem. Those things you think are god are not. When you see a beautiful sunset you think, "there must be a god". That sunset is not proof of god.

When people do good things that is not god. When people do bad that is not the devil.

Do you believe in the devil? The literal one or have you bastardized that concept too in order for it to make sense in your mind? I use to do the same thing. I tried to make sense of the lies and figure out the true meaning but then it dawned on me. Maybe the entire thing is made up???

Have you considered that 'made up' doesn't necessarily mean 'not real'?

Explain.

I've done a lot of reading on the nature of consciousness - the mind, etc. The theories that make the most sense to me characterize the human mind as, essentially, software that runs in a brain. Once you accept that core concept, that what we 'really' are isn't physical, but rather a specifically organized system of information, it's not a great leap to see gods as distributed versions of the same kind of entity. In fact, I take seriously the idea that gods are, in fact, prerequisites for human minds - inasmuch as they represent the communal consciousness that informs individual identity.

The human mind is capable of choosing which data to ignore and which to focus on, all without anything making it rewrite code, or making a choice that is directly contrary to its installed code or every instinct to survive.

IF you focus your mind you can make it do whatever you want it to, which is certainly not characteristic of computer code.

The human brain/mind also has emotions and is superstitious, creative, imagination, dreams, curious, doesn't like not knowing the answers to things, is afraid of what will happen when they die, we believe in big foots and ufo's, ghosts, witches, angels.

Some people accept everything. Some accept some parts of it and toss the things they don't like out and some of us throw it all out.

Something might have made the universe and us. It is also possible something made the thing that made us. And these things don't care about us. That's wishful thinking.

Think about it. Most people don't take the bible or koran literally. In other words they admit that god has never spoken to anyone. No miracles, no ark, no parting seas, no virgin births or rising from the dead. The people who deny all organized religions but still believe in a generic god must admit he has never paid anyone a visit.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It is hilarious to watch the news and see a President who claims the border is sealed and secure against ISIS and yet unaccompanied children can get across it. The children just don't count somehow to support the view that the border is NOT secure. The feds deny that radical Islamicist groups are the primary source for terrorism, and so a violent radical Jihadist who shot a bunch of people at Fort Hood screaming 'Allah Akbar!' and who recently asked ISIS to let him be an honorary citizen of the Caliphate was not a terrorist, and the shooting just 'work place violence'.

But those are just a few glaring examples of confirmation bias, a thing where people insist on putting what they perceive into nice neat little pigeon holes defined by an ideology or inflexible philosophy.

There is an old 16th century story of three blind men who are feeling parts of an elephant, an animal that they have never seen and have no idea exists, and one feels the leg and says it is a tree, the other feels the trunk and says it is a vine, another feels the belly and says there is a bolder above him. When told that it is all one great big huge animal they laugh and say the narrator is deluded.

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

Accepting something on faith does not demonstrate an open mind just one willing to follow the whims and beliefs of others.

Just because we may not know the origin of something does not necessarily mean a supreme being is responsible. it could be that we are simply incapable of understanding it given out limited sensory and cognitive abilities..

I consider myself an agnostic with atheist leanings but if I saw proof with my own eyes that there was a supreme being I would be compelled to believe. Some of you are willing to believe without such proof but I am not wired that way

Faith alone is sufficient to please God, otherwise the stupid would have no chance for salvation. But yes, these are people who accept their faith in a child's way, trusting those in authority around them.

But the evidence, reason and life experiences are there to lead one to believe, and if it is not so, and you honestly have found no evidence to believe in God, God does not call you to fake having faith.

For me, the strongest evidence has been the lives of believers compared to nonbelievers of similar background, the believers over all have fewer brushes with the law, fewer divorces, fewer addictions to drugs, etc. In fact AA has at its core values a belief and reliance on God that WORKS to help people beat their addiction. Compared to secular organizations, AA is way more effective in ending the plague of alcoholism in these peoples lives.

I heard a man once say that he has not seen Jesus turn water into wine, but he has seen Him act in peoples lives and turn wine into paid bills, a happy family and a peaceful contentment with life that they had never had before. I knew exactly what he meant, but my problem wasn't alcohol, and I don't want to discuss it, but yes, the power of faith is incredible, even when I didn't want it to happen to me.

Once I found a desire to know the Truth of what is Reality in my autistic obsessive way, I dug and dug and dug into the subject and I found much evidence of God's existence that previously I had attributed to circumstance or evolution. The funniest thing is to look at the design in living cells and say that it was complete chance that made them that way. Evolution was the tool God used, but He did not directly intervene. He made it the way He knew would work and let it grow on its own accord.

Using evolution to explain away the obvious design in the universe is like saying you cannot see the maker who is behind the chisel. Evolution is the chisel, but God's Hand guides it.

The fact that time must have had a beginning, that any eternal object responsible for the universe had to be infinite and have intelligence (set of all possible sets) and daily life with Christians and atheist in contrast....I have faith as much due to the absence of it in some as the presence of it in others.

But you have to make your own choices, obviously, and what may seem obvious to me might seem bewildering to a person who does not have those same experiences. Just be honest with yourself, treat the people in your life with respect/honesty/integrity and keep an open mind and watchful eye for God to get your attention,

I doubt he will fail you.

I don't buy your list of lifestyle choices as proof that god exists.

Lol, can we get a better example of confirmation bias than you reading all that and blowing it all off as 'life style choices'?

I doubt it.

But just stop it with the posturing that you are some kind of Truth seeker. You obviously are not.

Where did I ever once mention truth or seeking it?

So you admit to not having any intention of trying to grasp the Truth of these questions? So why are you here? To amuse yourself with all the Believer rubes? lolol

FYI plenty of believers drink and drug to excess so tell me how is that proof that a god exists?

It isn't, but the ratio of people with equivalent backgrounds in my experiences show huge help with dealing with issues in their lives and I am not alone on this observation, as AA using God to help people demonstrates.

And you just reiterated that not knowing something is proof of a supreme being.

It's not.

I said nothing of the sort. Show me what I said that sounds to you like 'WE do not know, therefore God exists.

We might never be able to understand the origin of the universe because we are too limited cognitively to do so that is not proof of a supreme being.

We are not too limited cognitively though your confirmation bias no doubt prefers to think that way rather than to look at the circumstantial implied answers. There is an eternal being, you just want to desperately believe ANYTHING other than the obvious.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

A particular standard of evidence is required to prove any claim. This ‘standard’ is adjusted depending upon the nature of the claim. Since god’s existence is an extraordinary claim, perhaps the most extraordinary claim, proving it requires equally extraordinary evidence.

I am not responding to all your crap, but I will respond to this one as the epitome of your irrationality.

No, extraordinary claims do NOT demand extraordinary evidence. They require exactly the SAME evidence as any other proposition. This demand for extraordinary evidence is the very example of what confirmation bias is and how it works, duh.

Ok, show me any good evidence a god exists. Evidence a scientist would accept. If you can't, piss off.

Lol, you are an idiot.

Science CANNOT prove anything not of the natural world, so your whole claim to want evidence is a shallow hypocrisy of posturing for results you have deliberately set up to fail.

Evidence used in criminal trials, civil courts, the kind of evidence that inform our choices we all have to make every single day is not 100% scientific. If you weren't such a gibbering fool you would know that.

There is a HUGE accumulation of historical, circumstantial, and eye witness events that prove God exists, and you look a total jack ass ignoring it all.

Really? Do you believe god talked to Mohammad or Joseph Smith and told them all the things they say he told them?

So you are an atheist too. You just happen to believe in one more god than I do.

When you realize your religion is just as made up as all the other religions, come talk to me.

No, you display your ignorance yet again.

I reject polytheistic gods for reasons you do not understand, and accept the Creator for reasons in stark contrast to you ignotheism.

There is a truth and reality independent of our desires. Faith simply reinforces your belief in what you would like to be true, rather than what really is.

In order to better under understand this reality and discover the truth we must look for evidence outside ourselves.

Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

In your bigoted opinion, perhaps.

Evidence is found in our daily lives and is as much justification for faith as any mathematical theorem.

That's your problem. Those things you think are god are not. When you see a beautiful sunset you think, "there must be a god". That sunset is not proof of god.

When people do good things that is not god. When people do bad that is not the devil.

Do you believe in the devil? The literal one or have you bastardized that concept too in order for it to make sense in your mind? I use to do the same thing. I tried to make sense of the lies and figure out the true meaning but then it dawned on me. Maybe the entire thing is made up???

Have you considered that 'made up' doesn't necessarily mean 'not real'?

Explain.

I've done a lot of reading on the nature of consciousness - the mind, etc. The theories that make the most sense to me characterize the human mind as, essentially, software that runs in a brain. Once you accept that core concept, that what we 'really' are isn't physical, but rather a specifically organized system of information, it's not a great leap to see gods as distributed versions of the same kind of entity. In fact, I take seriously the idea that gods are, in fact, prerequisites for human minds - inasmuch as they represent the communal consciousness that informs individual identity.

The human mind is capable of choosing which data to ignore and which to focus on, all without anything making it rewrite code, or making a choice that is directly contrary to its installed code or every instinct to survive.

IF you focus your mind you can make it do whatever you want it to, which is certainly not characteristic of computer code.

The human brain/mind also has emotions and is superstitious, creative, imagination, dreams, curious, doesn't like not knowing the answers to things, is afraid of what will happen when they die, we believe in big foots and ufo's, ghosts, witches, angels.

Some people accept everything. Some accept some parts of it and toss the things they don't like out and some of us throw it all out.

Something might have made the universe and us. It is also possible something made the thing that made us. And these things don't care about us. That's wishful thinking.

Think about it. Most people don't take the bible or koran literally. In other words they admit that god has never spoken to anyone. No miracles, no ark, no parting seas, no virgin births or rising from the dead. The people who deny all organized religions but still believe in a generic god must admit he has never paid anyone a visit.

Your feeble attempts at psycho analyzing billions of people categorically is little more than a fantasy of your mind caused by your atheistic conformation bias.

The human race that has invented art, science, modern technology, gone the Moon, and so much more are all just superstitious little frightened knuckle draggers in your opinion because we can see what you refuse to see for your fear of having to live responsibly.

And so you lie to yourself and everyone around instead of facing the obvious Truth. There is a God and one day you will have to answer for your lies, the wrongs you have committed (probably staggering) and you will not be able to evade the justice that you will receive.

 

[sealybobo]

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

A particular standard of evidence is required to prove any claim. This ‘standard’ is adjusted depending upon the nature of the claim. Since god’s existence is an extraordinary claim, perhaps the most extraordinary claim, proving it requires equally extraordinary evidence.

I am not responding to all your crap, but I will respond to this one as the epitome of your irrationality.

No, extraordinary claims do NOT demand extraordinary evidence. They require exactly the SAME evidence as any other proposition. This demand for extraordinary evidence is the very example of what confirmation bias is and how it works, duh.

Ok, show me any good evidence a god exists. Evidence a scientist would accept. If you can't, piss off.

Lol, you are an idiot.

Science CANNOT prove anything not of the natural world, so your whole claim to want evidence is a shallow hypocrisy of posturing for results you have deliberately set up to fail.

Evidence used in criminal trials, civil courts, the kind of evidence that inform our choices we all have to make every single day is not 100% scientific. If you weren't such a gibbering fool you would know that.

There is a HUGE accumulation of historical, circumstantial, and eye witness events that prove God exists, and you look a total jack ass ignoring it all.

Really? Do you believe god talked to Mohammad or Joseph Smith and told them all the things they say he told them?

So you are an atheist too. You just happen to believe in one more god than I do.

When you realize your religion is just as made up as all the other religions, come talk to me.

No, you display your ignorance yet again.

I reject polytheistic gods for reasons you do not understand, and accept the Creator for reasons in stark contrast to you ignotheism.

There is a truth and reality independent of our desires. Faith simply reinforces your belief in what you would like to be true, rather than what really is.

In order to better under understand this reality and discover the truth we must look for evidence outside ourselves.

Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

In your bigoted opinion, perhaps.

Evidence is found in our daily lives and is as much justification for faith as any mathematical theorem.

That's your problem. Those things you think are god are not. When you see a beautiful sunset you think, "there must be a god". That sunset is not proof of god.

When people do good things that is not god. When people do bad that is not the devil.

Do you believe in the devil? The literal one or have you bastardized that concept too in order for it to make sense in your mind? I use to do the same thing. I tried to make sense of the lies and figure out the true meaning but then it dawned on me. Maybe the entire thing is made up???

Have you considered that 'made up' doesn't necessarily mean 'not real'?

Explain.

I've done a lot of reading on the nature of consciousness - the mind, etc. The theories that make the most sense to me characterize the human mind as, essentially, software that runs in a brain. Once you accept that core concept, that what we 'really' are isn't physical, but rather a specifically organized system of information, it's not a great leap to see gods as distributed versions of the same kind of entity. In fact, I take seriously the idea that gods are, in fact, prerequisites for human minds - inasmuch as they represent the communal consciousness that informs individual identity.

The human mind is capable of choosing which data to ignore and which to focus on, all without anything making it rewrite code, or making a choice that is directly contrary to its installed code or every instinct to survive.

IF you focus your mind you can make it do whatever you want it to, which is certainly not characteristic of computer code.

The human brain/mind also has emotions and is superstitious, creative, imagination, dreams, curious, doesn't like not knowing the answers to things, is afraid of what will happen when they die, we believe in big foots and ufo's, ghosts, witches, angels.

Some people accept everything. Some accept some parts of it and toss the things they don't like out and some of us throw it all out.

Something might have made the universe and us. It is also possible something made the thing that made us. And these things don't care about us. That's wishful thinking.

Think about it. Most people don't take the bible or koran literally. In other words they admit that god has never spoken to anyone. No miracles, no ark, no parting seas, no virgin births or rising from the dead. The people who deny all organized religions but still believe in a generic god must admit he has never paid anyone a visit.

Your feeble attempts at psycho analyzing billions of people categorically is little more than a fantasy of your mind caused by your atheistic conformation bias.

The human race that has invented art, science, modern technology, gone the Moon, and so much more are all just superstitious little frightened knuckle draggers in your opinion because we can see what you refuse to see for your fear of having to live responsibly.

And so you lie to yourself and everyone around instead of facing the obvious Truth. There is a God and one day you will have to answer for your lies, the wrongs you have committed (probably staggering) and you will not be able to evade the justice that you will receive.

Not true. Science is finding out things like the fact that an intelligent person can hold an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

But, it is true that atheists tend to have higher iq's than the normal person and we see the most religious parts of the country are also the most illiterate. Sorry it's a fact. Look it up.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

From the OP:

... and yet unaccompanied children can get across it. The children just don't count somehow to support the view that the border is NOT secure...

The refugee children did not sneak across.

The rest of your rant is also pure nonsense.

Believe whatever you want or need to believe. Believe whatever gets you through the night. Just stop trying to force others to agree with your beliefs. Stop trying to change our constitution. Just finally accept that the US does not have an official religion. Read and understand the First Amendment.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Your feeble attempts at psycho analyzing billions of people categorically is little more than a fantasy of your mind caused by your atheistic conformation bias.

The human race that has invented art, science, modern technology, gone the Moon, and so much more are all just superstitious little frightened knuckle draggers in your opinion because we can see what you refuse to see for your fear of having to live responsibly.

And so you lie to yourself and everyone around instead of facing the obvious Truth. There is a God and one day you will have to answer for your lies, the wrongs you have committed (probably staggering) and you will not be able to evade the justice that you will receive.

Not true. Science is finding out things like the fact that an intelligent person can hold an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

We have long known that people can hold contrary beliefs for thousands of years. And you pretend that this is recently discovered? lolol

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

Totally ambiguous statement with a high bullshit factor. There is no clear meaning to the statement 'not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it.' but it likely salves your conscience some, to whatever degree you still have one and buttresses your back slapping for mental superiority of yourself and your comrades. But it is still total morphological bullshit.

And evidence and reason are not the only factors, far more important are the cosmological assumptions that one starts with. You seem to be a Naturalist who has already decided that there is no way that an extra-natural cause can exist. So you engage in all kinds of prevarication, lies, twisted fantasy, contortionist logic and worse to avoid the obvious that 98% of the rest of us either knows, suspects or refuse to rule out; God exists.

But, it is true that atheists tend to have higher iq's than the normal person and we see the most religious parts of the country are also the most illiterate. Sorry it's a fact. Look it up.

The same biased IQ test crap that racists have used for centuries now. So what, now all believers are subhumans like your ilk used to say about blacks and Jews?

 

[Skull Pilot]

It is hilarious to watch the news and see a President who claims the border is sealed and secure against ISIS and yet unaccompanied children can get across it. The children just don't count somehow to support the view that the border is NOT secure. The feds deny that radical Islamicist groups are the primary source for terrorism, and so a violent radical Jihadist who shot a bunch of people at Fort Hood screaming 'Allah Akbar!' and who recently asked ISIS to let him be an honorary citizen of the Caliphate was not a terrorist, and the shooting just 'work place violence'.

But those are just a few glaring examples of confirmation bias, a thing where people insist on putting what they perceive into nice neat little pigeon holes defined by an ideology or inflexible philosophy.

There is an old 16th century story of three blind men who are feeling parts of an elephant, an animal that they have never seen and have no idea exists, and one feels the leg and says it is a tree, the other feels the trunk and says it is a vine, another feels the belly and says there is a bolder above him. When told that it is all one great big huge animal they laugh and say the narrator is deluded.

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

Accepting something on faith does not demonstrate an open mind just one willing to follow the whims and beliefs of others.

Just because we may not know the origin of something does not necessarily mean a supreme being is responsible. it could be that we are simply incapable of understanding it given out limited sensory and cognitive abilities..

I consider myself an agnostic with atheist leanings but if I saw proof with my own eyes that there was a supreme being I would be compelled to believe. Some of you are willing to believe without such proof but I am not wired that way

Faith alone is sufficient to please God, otherwise the stupid would have no chance for salvation. But yes, these are people who accept their faith in a child's way, trusting those in authority around them.

But the evidence, reason and life experiences are there to lead one to believe, and if it is not so, and you honestly have found no evidence to believe in God, God does not call you to fake having faith.

For me, the strongest evidence has been the lives of believers compared to nonbelievers of similar background, the believers over all have fewer brushes with the law, fewer divorces, fewer addictions to drugs, etc. In fact AA has at its core values a belief and reliance on God that WORKS to help people beat their addiction. Compared to secular organizations, AA is way more effective in ending the plague of alcoholism in these peoples lives.

I heard a man once say that he has not seen Jesus turn water into wine, but he has seen Him act in peoples lives and turn wine into paid bills, a happy family and a peaceful contentment with life that they had never had before. I knew exactly what he meant, but my problem wasn't alcohol, and I don't want to discuss it, but yes, the power of faith is incredible, even when I didn't want it to happen to me.

Once I found a desire to know the Truth of what is Reality in my autistic obsessive way, I dug and dug and dug into the subject and I found much evidence of God's existence that previously I had attributed to circumstance or evolution. The funniest thing is to look at the design in living cells and say that it was complete chance that made them that way. Evolution was the tool God used, but He did not directly intervene. He made it the way He knew would work and let it grow on its own accord.

Using evolution to explain away the obvious design in the universe is like saying you cannot see the maker who is behind the chisel. Evolution is the chisel, but God's Hand guides it.

The fact that time must have had a beginning, that any eternal object responsible for the universe had to be infinite and have intelligence (set of all possible sets) and daily life with Christians and atheist in contrast....I have faith as much due to the absence of it in some as the presence of it in others.

But you have to make your own choices, obviously, and what may seem obvious to me might seem bewildering to a person who does not have those same experiences. Just be honest with yourself, treat the people in your life with respect/honesty/integrity and keep an open mind and watchful eye for God to get your attention,

I doubt he will fail you.

I don't buy your list of lifestyle choices as proof that god exists.

Lol, can we get a better example of confirmation bias than you reading all that and blowing it all off as 'life style choices'?

I doubt it.

But just stop it with the posturing that you are some kind of Truth seeker. You obviously are not.

Where did I ever once mention truth or seeking it?

So you admit to not having any intention of trying to grasp the Truth of these questions? So why are you here? To amuse yourself with all the Believer rubes? lolol

FYI plenty of believers drink and drug to excess so tell me how is that proof that a god exists?

It isn't, but the ratio of people with equivalent backgrounds in my experiences show huge help with dealing with issues in their lives and I am not alone on this observation, as AA using God to help people demonstrates.

And you just reiterated that not knowing something is proof of a supreme being.

It's not.

I said nothing of the sort. Show me what I said that sounds to you like 'WE do not know, therefore God exists.

We might never be able to understand the origin of the universe because we are too limited cognitively to do so that is not proof of a supreme being.

We are not too limited cognitively though your confirmation bias no doubt prefers to think that way rather than to look at the circumstantial implied answers. There is an eternal being, you just want to desperately believe ANYTHING other than the obvious.

If we are not limited cognitively then why can we not scientifically explain the origin of the universe without the magic man equation

And I have never once denied the existence of a supreme being. I have merely stated that there is no proof of said being.

I am not one to believe without proof. Faith is for followers I don't believe something merely because someone told me it was true

 

[sealybobo]

Your feeble attempts at psycho analyzing billions of people categorically is little more than a fantasy of your mind caused by your atheistic conformation bias.

The human race that has invented art, science, modern technology, gone the Moon, and so much more are all just superstitious little frightened knuckle draggers in your opinion because we can see what you refuse to see for your fear of having to live responsibly.

And so you lie to yourself and everyone around instead of facing the obvious Truth. There is a God and one day you will have to answer for your lies, the wrongs you have committed (probably staggering) and you will not be able to evade the justice that you will receive.

Not true. Science is finding out things like the fact that an intelligent person can hold an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

We have long known that people can hold contrary beliefs for thousands of years. And you pretend that this is recently discovered? lolol

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

Totally ambiguous statement with a high bullshit factor. There is no clear meaning to the statement 'not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it.' but it likely salves your conscience some, to whatever degree you still have one and buttresses your back slapping for mental superiority of yourself and your comrades. But it is still total morphological bullshit.

And evidence and reason are not the only factors, far more important are the cosmological assumptions that one starts with. You seem to be a Naturalist who has already decided that there is no way that an extra-natural cause can exist. So you engage in all kinds of prevarication, lies, twisted fantasy, contortionist logic and worse to avoid the obvious that 98% of the rest of us either knows, suspects or refuse to rule out; God exists.

But, it is true that atheists tend to have higher iq's than the normal person and we see the most religious parts of the country are also the most illiterate. Sorry it's a fact. Look it up.

The same biased IQ test crap that racists have used for centuries now. So what, now all believers are subhumans like your ilk used to say about blacks and Jews?

My ilk? Did you see 12 years a slave? Did you see how Masters used religion to keep their slaves ignorant and in line? But even some smart people are scared of death, not knowing, wishful thinking, etc.

I have not decided anything. There may be something that created us. I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't know what created us. What I do know is Christianity, Jew, Muslim, Mormon are all bullshit.

Mostly I only discuss with people who believe in generic god. And people who do that are amazing to me because despite understanding all the stories are bullshit they still believe?

And if you take the Noah's arc and Mary being a virgin stories literally then I don't know what to say to you. If you believe in the rapture coming and the mark of the beast you really should be committed.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Your feeble attempts at psycho analyzing billions of people categorically is little more than a fantasy of your mind caused by your atheistic conformation bias.

The human race that has invented art, science, modern technology, gone the Moon, and so much more are all just superstitious little frightened knuckle draggers in your opinion because we can see what you refuse to see for your fear of having to live responsibly.

And so you lie to yourself and everyone around instead of facing the obvious Truth. There is a God and one day you will have to answer for your lies, the wrongs you have committed (probably staggering) and you will not be able to evade the justice that you will receive.

Not true. Science is finding out things like the fact that an intelligent person can hold an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

We have long known that people can hold contrary beliefs for thousands of years. And you pretend that this is recently discovered? lolol

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

Totally ambiguous statement with a high bullshit factor. There is no clear meaning to the statement 'not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it.' but it likely salves your conscience some, to whatever degree you still have one and buttresses your back slapping for mental superiority of yourself and your comrades. But it is still total morphological bullshit.

And evidence and reason are not the only factors, far more important are the cosmological assumptions that one starts with. You seem to be a Naturalist who has already decided that there is no way that an extra-natural cause can exist. So you engage in all kinds of prevarication, lies, twisted fantasy, contortionist logic and worse to avoid the obvious that 98% of the rest of us either knows, suspects or refuse to rule out; God exists.

But, it is true that atheists tend to have higher iq's than the normal person and we see the most religious parts of the country are also the most illiterate. Sorry it's a fact. Look it up.

The same biased IQ test crap that racists have used for centuries now. So what, now all believers are subhumans like your ilk used to say about blacks and Jews?

My ilk? Did you see 12 years a slave? Did you see how Masters used religion to keep their slaves ignorant and in line? But even some smart people are scared of death, not knowing, wishful thinking, etc.

I have not decided anything. There may be something that created us. I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't know what created us. What I do know is Christianity, Jew, Muslim, Mormon are all bullshit.

Mostly I only discuss with people who believe in generic god. And people who do that are amazing to me because despite understanding all the stories are bullshit they still believe?

And if you take the Noah's arc and Mary being a virgin stories literally then I don't know what to say to you. If you believe in the rapture coming and the mark of the beast you really should be committed.

You are a confused ignorant ass hole, and likely just trolling.

And citing a movie isn't proof of anything, twit.

 

[JimBowie1958]

It is hilarious to watch the news and see a President who claims the border is sealed and secure against ISIS and yet unaccompanied children can get across it. The children just don't count somehow to support the view that the border is NOT secure. The feds deny that radical Islamicist groups are the primary source for terrorism, and so a violent radical Jihadist who shot a bunch of people at Fort Hood screaming 'Allah Akbar!' and who recently asked ISIS to let him be an honorary citizen of the Caliphate was not a terrorist, and the shooting just 'work place violence'.

But those are just a few glaring examples of confirmation bias, a thing where people insist on putting what they perceive into nice neat little pigeon holes defined by an ideology or inflexible philosophy.

There is an old 16th century story of three blind men who are feeling parts of an elephant, an animal that they have never seen and have no idea exists, and one feels the leg and says it is a tree, the other feels the trunk and says it is a vine, another feels the belly and says there is a bolder above him. When told that it is all one great big huge animal they laugh and say the narrator is deluded.

You cannot show evidence to someone who refuses to accept even the remote possibility of the thing claimed. No mater how complex a life form maybe, like the human cell, and no matter what Darwin knew about the complexity of the cell and the impact were it overly complex, the atheist will insist it is all the product of unguided chance. No matter how finely tuned the universe the atheist will insist that it proves nothing and it isn't so finely tuned anyway.

So don't pitch your argument to persuade an atheist of anything. Speak to other theists or to the lurkers who just read and move on. The atheist is a fringe element cultist who has closed his mind long ago.

Accepting something on faith does not demonstrate an open mind just one willing to follow the whims and beliefs of others.

Just because we may not know the origin of something does not necessarily mean a supreme being is responsible. it could be that we are simply incapable of understanding it given out limited sensory and cognitive abilities..

I consider myself an agnostic with atheist leanings but if I saw proof with my own eyes that there was a supreme being I would be compelled to believe. Some of you are willing to believe without such proof but I am not wired that way

Faith alone is sufficient to please God, otherwise the stupid would have no chance for salvation. But yes, these are people who accept their faith in a child's way, trusting those in authority around them.

But the evidence, reason and life experiences are there to lead one to believe, and if it is not so, and you honestly have found no evidence to believe in God, God does not call you to fake having faith.

For me, the strongest evidence has been the lives of believers compared to nonbelievers of similar background, the believers over all have fewer brushes with the law, fewer divorces, fewer addictions to drugs, etc. In fact AA has at its core values a belief and reliance on God that WORKS to help people beat their addiction. Compared to secular organizations, AA is way more effective in ending the plague of alcoholism in these peoples lives.

I heard a man once say that he has not seen Jesus turn water into wine, but he has seen Him act in peoples lives and turn wine into paid bills, a happy family and a peaceful contentment with life that they had never had before. I knew exactly what he meant, but my problem wasn't alcohol, and I don't want to discuss it, but yes, the power of faith is incredible, even when I didn't want it to happen to me.

Once I found a desire to know the Truth of what is Reality in my autistic obsessive way, I dug and dug and dug into the subject and I found much evidence of God's existence that previously I had attributed to circumstance or evolution. The funniest thing is to look at the design in living cells and say that it was complete chance that made them that way. Evolution was the tool God used, but He did not directly intervene. He made it the way He knew would work and let it grow on its own accord.

Using evolution to explain away the obvious design in the universe is like saying you cannot see the maker who is behind the chisel. Evolution is the chisel, but God's Hand guides it.

The fact that time must have had a beginning, that any eternal object responsible for the universe had to be infinite and have intelligence (set of all possible sets) and daily life with Christians and atheist in contrast....I have faith as much due to the absence of it in some as the presence of it in others.

But you have to make your own choices, obviously, and what may seem obvious to me might seem bewildering to a person who does not have those same experiences. Just be honest with yourself, treat the people in your life with respect/honesty/integrity and keep an open mind and watchful eye for God to get your attention,

I doubt he will fail you.

I don't buy your list of lifestyle choices as proof that god exists.

Lol, can we get a better example of confirmation bias than you reading all that and blowing it all off as 'life style choices'?

I doubt it.

But just stop it with the posturing that you are some kind of Truth seeker. You obviously are not.

Where did I ever once mention truth or seeking it?

So you admit to not having any intention of trying to grasp the Truth of these questions? So why are you here? To amuse yourself with all the Believer rubes? lolol

FYI plenty of believers drink and drug to excess so tell me how is that proof that a god exists?

It isn't, but the ratio of people with equivalent backgrounds in my experiences show huge help with dealing with issues in their lives and I am not alone on this observation, as AA using God to help people demonstrates.

And you just reiterated that not knowing something is proof of a supreme being.

It's not.

I said nothing of the sort. Show me what I said that sounds to you like 'WE do not know, therefore God exists.

We might never be able to understand the origin of the universe because we are too limited cognitively to do so that is not proof of a supreme being.

We are not too limited cognitively though your confirmation bias no doubt prefers to think that way rather than to look at the circumstantial implied answers. There is an eternal being, you just want to desperately believe ANYTHING other than the obvious.

If we are not limited cognitively then why can we not scientifically explain the origin of the universe without the magic man equation

because proving anything that is not repeatable and part of the natural flow of time and space is beyond the reach of science. It has nothing to do with any limitations of our brains or cognitive ability.

And I have never once denied the existence of a supreme being. I have merely stated that there is no proof of said being.

There is evidence for the existence of God, and I have repeatedly shared some. If you are demanding a lab tes, sorry, aint gonna happen.

I am not one to believe without proof. Faith is for followers I don't believe something merely because someone told me it was true

Bullshit. That vast majority of your life from day to day is lived, decisions made and actions taken without scientific proof for them.

 

[sealybobo]

Your feeble attempts at psycho analyzing billions of people categorically is little more than a fantasy of your mind caused by your atheistic conformation bias.

The human race that has invented art, science, modern technology, gone the Moon, and so much more are all just superstitious little frightened knuckle draggers in your opinion because we can see what you refuse to see for your fear of having to live responsibly.

And so you lie to yourself and everyone around instead of facing the obvious Truth. There is a God and one day you will have to answer for your lies, the wrongs you have committed (probably staggering) and you will not be able to evade the justice that you will receive.

Not true. Science is finding out things like the fact that an intelligent person can hold an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

We have long known that people can hold contrary beliefs for thousands of years. And you pretend that this is recently discovered? lolol

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

Totally ambiguous statement with a high bullshit factor. There is no clear meaning to the statement 'not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it.' but it likely salves your conscience some, to whatever degree you still have one and buttresses your back slapping for mental superiority of yourself and your comrades. But it is still total morphological bullshit.

And evidence and reason are not the only factors, far more important are the cosmological assumptions that one starts with. You seem to be a Naturalist who has already decided that there is no way that an extra-natural cause can exist. So you engage in all kinds of prevarication, lies, twisted fantasy, contortionist logic and worse to avoid the obvious that 98% of the rest of us either knows, suspects or refuse to rule out; God exists.

But, it is true that atheists tend to have higher iq's than the normal person and we see the most religious parts of the country are also the most illiterate. Sorry it's a fact. Look it up.

The same biased IQ test crap that racists have used for centuries now. So what, now all believers are subhumans like your ilk used to say about blacks and Jews?

My ilk? Did you see 12 years a slave? Did you see how Masters used religion to keep their slaves ignorant and in line? But even some smart people are scared of death, not knowing, wishful thinking, etc.

I have not decided anything. There may be something that created us. I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't know what created us. What I do know is Christianity, Jew, Muslim, Mormon are all bullshit.

Mostly I only discuss with people who believe in generic god. And people who do that are amazing to me because despite understanding all the stories are bullshit they still believe?

And if you take the Noah's arc and Mary being a virgin stories literally then I don't know what to say to you. If you believe in the rapture coming and the mark of the beast you really should be committed.

You are a confused ignorant ass hole, and likely just trolling.

And citing a movie isn't proof of anything, twit.

Art immitating life.