Conservatives and Libertarians need to be allies

[Kevin_Kennedy]

We covered this. Your stating who've you've read isn't an answer to what you believe. I realize it's not a direct contradiction because you are against government and they are not government, but it's still a hoot that an anarchist would need to tell you to read a book so you know what they believe because they can't describe it themselves.

No, actually, we haven't. You always run away from this logical implication of your position. If anarchists are not libertarians then you are attempting to purge the libertarian movement of some of its most important thinkers: Rothbard, Hoppe, and Block. Not to mention the so-called "tory anarchists," Mencken, Nock, and Chodorov.

The real hoot here is that you, who have admittedly not read much, if anything, on anarchism, would have the temerity to pronounce that anarchists have no solutions. That I linked you to several books on the subject was merely to prove that you were obviously incorrect. Furthermore, it seems strange that a self-professed libertarian would balk at somebody who refuses to claim some level of omniscience and ability to centrally plan a market economy. Auberon Herbert foresaw your arguments a long time ago.

"If government half a century ago had provided us with all our dinners and breakfasts, it would be the practice of our orators today to assume the impossibility of our providing for ourselves."

So here is what I see, and you may correct me on the facts if I have them wrong: You are a self-professed libertarian

True


Technically true, actually I voted against Obama when he showed that in his 2008 campaign he wasn't lying when he said he was a Marxist. I hadn't voted Republican since 1988, so voting for the lesser evil isn't my thing. Voting for true evil does get me there.

who believes that it is entirely possible to know exactly how the market would react in a given situation (central planning)

Nope, this is how you deflect when I try to engage you in discussion on your system. You say you're not omniscient so you can't answer any questions at all about how things would work other than generalizations like that if someone killed your family and ran you'd put a contract out on them as if the assassin you hired knew or cared the person had actually killed your family. That anarchy would be chaos, as I stated.

who believes that it is entirely possible to know and has vociferous opinions on anarchism without ever actually having read anything on the subject.

Nope. I said I haven't read as much as I have on other ideologies. I've apparently read a lot more than you have because I've read a lot. And my statements on anarchy in my discussions with you were based on your description of anarchy. That you want to keep deflecting and tell me to read a book is still deflection.

If you asked me how I would run a private shoe business you'd get the same answer: I don't have an answer. This is not a deflection given the fact that I've previously stated that I am not an anarchist because I looked at the minutiae of every single thing that would need to be provided on the free market and know exactly how to do it, but rather because I reject centralized aggressive violence period. That you require an answer to how every little thing would be run on the market is, in my opinion, evidence of an inner-central planner that you simply don't want to admit exists, and that, until this central planner is satisfied, you are willing to support aggressive coercion against people through the state. This is not only a rejection of the libertarian non-aggression principle, but of the free market.

So, in other words, you admit that you haven't read much on anarchism, and yet you feel the need to express an opinion on its alleged deficiencies. I never told you to go read a book, as I've repeatedly stated, I merely linked to those books to prove to you that the answers exist. That you refuse to acknowledge this is the real deflection.

I note, once again, that you're afraid to publicly announce that you reject Rothbard, Hoppe, and Block, among others, as real libertarians, and would like to see them purged from the libertarian ranks.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

So Kevin, maybe once you could address a situation with some content. You move into a mostly unpopulated valley. You claim about 50 acres of land. You farm half, have some you use for your home. The rest you keep as woods where you have a trail for walks and to get water from a stream a few hundred yards from your home. You and your neighbors live peacefully.

One day a group of people move in the valley and build a church. They're good people, leave you alone, you're fine. But the church keeps building and they need more and more land. Eventually they are at your border. Then in their quest for land they start cutting down your woods saying your home and farm land is yours, but the woods aren't. Then you can't get to the stream and they start charging you for access to water. Your neighbors build closer to the stream and keep to themselves.

Then the church starts to put out maps stating where farms are. They post at their buildings the process for claiming land and disputing people from taking yours, but you don't belong to their church and you don't want to be bothered with it.

They're good people, but they are following process and you're not. They're going to let you fight for your land through their system, but you lose they will enforce their decisions with guns, and they at this point have hundreds of armed people keeping their laws. Your 50 acres is down to 25 and shrinking.

I say you're shit out of luck, your anarchy lead to exactly what I said it would. Any contribution to this other than you're not omniscient or that you're going to hire hit men?

The simple and fallacious assumption here is that I must go through "their system," rather than an objective unbiased justice system already in existence, and that I have no recourse to private security firms in the meantime to protect my property.

 

[kwc57]

Oh, did it? So it's my fault your party put up the giant turd sandwich to compete with the douche milkshake?

I think not, fella. it makes absolutely no difference to me which version of corporatism was going to run the show. None. If we're voting for turd sandwich or douche milkshake, I'll go ahead and skip dinner altogether.

Except you can't. You're going to get served one or the other. You should at least choose which one you can stomach the best until you have a better choice.

Yes, those of you who will still vote for a turd sandwich or a douche milkshake will, of course, want me to sit at teh table and share in your grotesque meal. My only true freedom in this is being able to stand on my principles. Statists will force me to eat the same turd sammich they ordered for everyone, but I get the smug satisfaction of knowing that i did NOT choose that at all. You have to force it on me.

I get your point. I really do. But the deal is this, whether you vote or not, you are still going to get a president out of the deal. Dinner....you can skip. An elected leader.....not so much. I can't remember that I've ever gotten to vote for MY candidate in very many elections, but vote I did and it was often to keep the worse of the two choices out of office. That is just reality.

 

[Vox]

You can either be for a certain form of government and support it.....

Or someone will form a government whether you like it or not and force it on you.

You can take part in the process or you can sit back casting stones at those who would do you no harm.

Or you can stand idly by and watch those who would do you harm take power.

Enough senseless platitudes from me.

I get really tired of people who want to spout off about how both parties are e-vul and need to be changed.

What a load of shit. Just stay home and shut the fuck up if that's all you got because you ain't never gonna change anything. All you're gonna do is make people mad.

And there's no such thing as an independent. They're just dimocraps who don't have the guts to admit it.

Been there, done that, sold the T-Shirt.

before the election I had a bunch people tell me how "Independent" they were.

Every one of them ended up voting for the Stuttering Clusterfukk and none of them can tell me why.

Someone up thread said that the most important thing is to get the totally and completely disgusting dimocrap party out of power.

Once we do that, we can argue about who, what, when, where, how much, if any, etc.

But the dimocrap party is the enemy of this Country and those who love Freedom.

Whether you fancy yourself a Libertarian, a Conservative or a simple Patriot... the dimocrap party is your enemy.

Republicans may not be your 'friend'. They may not go out of their way to kiss your ass. But they're not your enemy either and will just leave you alone.

dimocraps? They are pure evil. They aim to destroy anything and everything that disagrees with their statist goals.

Think that's hyperbole?

Think again. You know I'm right

Republicans are the party of 'live and let live'. dimocraps are what they are, statist scum two steps removed from Hitler and Stalin and one step removed from Chavez

 

[Redfish]

Rollback? C'mon, dude. When is the last time Republicans have gotten controla dn rolled back on their powers. Or their spending for that matter? Are you simply trying to insult us into submission now?

IF your republicans had more substance than the bullshit they spew, you may have a point. But they dont. They talk abotu limited government and then turn around and created another homeland spy agency. Or some othe rbloated agency that sucks funds and infrgines upon our liberties.

Half the reason the GOP is in the toilet now is because even conservatives see that these puss sores are only full of wind. They ACT just like progressive dems once given the key to the coffer. No one is fooled by that shit any more.

I agree with your frustration, I was pissed off about it too. They had the bull by the horns from 2002-2006 and nothing was rolled back, reversed, or even slowed down. It's partly because people got complacent. The economy was roaring, the democrooks seemed powerless, and ammo was CHEAP. So the republicrats acted like democrooks and handed out money. Conservatives got pissed, and didn't show up to vote again till 2010.

Since 2010 however all we've heard is about the conflict within the GOP. People who think more like you and I, and many libertarians at least on ficsal issues have dragged the GOP kicking and screaming in a better direction.

Ron Paul helped encourage actual pandering by some in the GOP for libertarian votes. There were calls for getting rid of the entire tax system, huge agencies, and EVERYONE wanted to repeal obozocare. If they're pandering to you, they're at least hearing you.

The problem is, I dont want to HEAR anymore about it. We've said our peace. The problem is that they say one thing adn do the opposite. Which, seems to be a trend in politics with all politicians. Repuiblicans talk about limit constitutional government and sound fiscal policiy and thats where it all ends. It's lip service and nothing more.

I'm not falling for that crap.

then you will help the liberal democrats to one party rule and a virtual king.

Frankly, you have your head up your ass.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

As if the republicans want something different. Is that the boogeyman tactic, or what?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Except you can't. You're going to get served one or the other. You should at least choose which one you can stomach the best until you have a better choice.

Yes, those of you who will still vote for a turd sandwich or a douche milkshake will, of course, want me to sit at teh table and share in your grotesque meal. My only true freedom in this is being able to stand on my principles. Statists will force me to eat the same turd sammich they ordered for everyone, but I get the smug satisfaction of knowing that i did NOT choose that at all. You have to force it on me.

I get your point. I really do. But the deal is this, whether you vote or not, you are still going to get a president out of the deal. Dinner....you can skip. An elected leader.....not so much. I can't remember that I've ever gotten to vote for MY candidate in very many elections, but vote I did and it was often to keep the worse of the two choices out of office. That is just reality.

That's fine. I have principles and integrity to abide. I'm not going to participate in something that is broken for the sake of seeing it get broken slower. I could care less. Let the fucker break. If the voting all leads to over the cliff, U'd just as soon ride shotgun in the fast lane than sit in the back with a Sunday driver.

 

[Oddball]

With all due respect, people aren't exactly lining up to buy your product either.

How about giving real freedom and free enterprise and real cuts in spending and bureaucracy a fair hearing in the arena of ideas, rather than smearing and lying about libertarians like liberoidals do?

I agree with that. Republicrats and "conservatives" demonize libertarians far too often. I don't agree with libertarians on every issue, but the foundation of constitutionally limited government is what should be the focus. Defeating the democrook agenda should be the greatest priority, so we should be able to more easily embrace these people.

Crush the democrooks first, then we can fight amongst each other about how far right we go, and opposed to how slowly left we go.

Republicans did that in 2000....They held all the stroke campaigning on fiscal restraint , reigning bureaucracy and no nation building...Then they expanded spending and bureaucracy faster than did the "liberal" predecessor and turned into the next coming of Woodrow Wilson on the international scene.

I quit buying that "give us the power and we'll hash out the details later" crap in '95....I was totally unsurprised when Chimpola and Jabba Hastert went full libtard when they controlled everything.

I'm not voting GOP again, until they put someone in there who means it and backs up the words with action....Until then, all the GOP fluffers and apologists can suck it.

 

[Oddball]

With all due respect, people aren't exactly lining up to buy your product either.

How about giving real freedom and free enterprise and real cuts in spending and bureaucracy a fair hearing in the arena of ideas, rather than smearing and lying about libertarians like liberoidals do?

Because narco-libertarians come with other baggage, like isolationism and a healthy dose of anti semitism. Also radical views on social issues. This is why they lose every time.
How about giving up the social crap and join the GOP to push out the statists in the party and move towards more free enterprise?

Blow it out your ass with the "narco-libertarian" smear...It's totally lame.....You sound exactly like statist asshole liberoidal gun grabbers.

 

[Oddball]

That's very noble and I'm sure you sleep well at night congratulating yourself on how principled you are.
In the adult world though such actions make you irrelevant to the political process.

Tough fucking titties.

Quit blaming the customer for your horseshit neocon product.

With all due respect, people aren't exactly lining up to buy your product either.

Oh, yes they do line up to buy the product, when a persuasive republican poseur is peddling it.

See: Reagan, both Bushes, Gingrich, Kasich, Graham, Flake, et.al.

Problem is that none of them meant it.

I won't get bait-and-switched by the neocon dirtballs again.

 

[Oddball]

I agree with your frustration, I was pissed off about it too. They had the bull by the horns from 2002-2006 and nothing was rolled back, reversed, or even slowed down. It's partly because people got complacent. The economy was roaring, the democrooks seemed powerless, and ammo was CHEAP. So the republicrats acted like democrooks and handed out money. Conservatives got pissed, and didn't show up to vote again till 2010.

Since 2010 however all we've heard is about the conflict within the GOP. People who think more like you and I, and many libertarians at least on ficsal issues have dragged the GOP kicking and screaming in a better direction.

Ron Paul helped encourage actual pandering by some in the GOP for libertarian votes. There were calls for getting rid of the entire tax system, huge agencies, and EVERYONE wanted to repeal obozocare. If they're pandering to you, they're at least hearing you.

The problem is, I dont want to HEAR anymore about it. We've said our peace. The problem is that they say one thing adn do the opposite. Which, seems to be a trend in politics with all politicians. Repuiblicans talk about limit constitutional government and sound fiscal policiy and thats where it all ends. It's lip service and nothing more.

I'm not falling for that crap.

then you will help the liberal democrats to one party rule and a virtual king.

Frankly, you have your head up your ass.

With liberoidal douchbag republicans like McLouse and greaseball Romney as my "choices", there is no choice.

Someone needs to pull their head out of their ass and it ain't TASB.

 

[thanatos144]

The problem is, I dont want to HEAR anymore about it. We've said our peace. The problem is that they say one thing adn do the opposite. Which, seems to be a trend in politics with all politicians. Repuiblicans talk about limit constitutional government and sound fiscal policiy and thats where it all ends. It's lip service and nothing more.

I'm not falling for that crap.

then you will help the liberal democrats to one party rule and a virtual king.

Frankly, you have your head up your ass.

With liberoidal douchbag republicans like McLouse and greaseball Romney as my "choices", there is no choice.

Someone needs to pull their head out of their ass and it ain't TASB.

So when are you going to admit to truly being a democrat hippy stoner?

 

[Oddball]

Nope...Because I'm not.

But at least you're content being an above-board Wilsonian progressive authoritarian goombah...So we got that going for us.

 

[thanatos144]

Nope...Because I'm not.

But at least you're content being an above-board Wilsonian progressive authoritarian goombah...So we got that going for us.

Lol sorry i dont buy your bullshit act

 

[Oddball]

You'll buy any bullshit act...Look at the poseurs you support and vote for.

 

[thanatos144]

You'll buy any bullshit act...Look at the poseurs you support and vote for.

You don't know who i support.

 

[Oddball]

You'll support any neocon bullshit artist with an (R) by his name, and you know I know it.

You might as well vote for Vince the Sham-Wow! guy.

 

[thanatos144]

You'll support any neocon bullshit artist with an (R) by his name, and you know I know it.

You might as well vote for Vince the Sham-Wow! guy.

that is not saying much since in your democrat mind all republicans are neocons... All but the fraud Ron Paul

 

[Oddball]

I'm not the one with the democrat mind, Gomer....That would be you.

Same communistic bullshit...Only the (D) & (R) is different.

 

[thanatos144]

I'm not the one with the democrat mind, Gomer....That would be you.

Same communistic bullshit...Only the (D) & (R) is different.

Why do you keep up the act?