Conservatives sold themselves two lies

[iceberg]

An example of my point. The country has changed, in part because the Right did nothing as the Left created a new culture over the last couple of generations.

I still think it's a mistake to use government to force social change, regardless of which side it's coming from, regardless of the change in question. The government is supposed to be the servant of the people, not their master.

Yeah, you'd think. But this culture is changing rapidly, and we're definitely headed in that direction.
.

The culture changing rapidly doesn't bother me. Special interest groups using government to manipulate that change does. The Democrats have been guilty of indulging that, and it's cost us. And they don't seem to have learned anything from their mistakes.

Well, that depends on how "culture" is defined. Identity Politics created those special interest groups, and I'd file that under culture because it's now so ingrained in our society.

It's frankly done quite a number on me personally to actually begin to lose interest in our political landscape. Identity politics has simply gone way, way to extremist in this country. The everyday bickering over it has grown beyond tryng. I believe Obama's time exacerbated this issue, and the Orange Virus has actually managed to make it 50 times worse. I think Orange is the beginning of a whole new breed of shitty politician. Blatant ignorance, racism and infidelity in our leaders is not only accepted, but even adored by some of the seriously impaired voters out there. The door is now wide open for a new generation of populist opportunists on both sides of the party lines.

i do agree obama started it with pushing the liberal agenda on conservatives whether they liked it or not. for the right to be such "obstructionists" he still pushed down a lot of liberal values. some i'm fine with, others i simply don't care about and some i do not like at all. kinda goes that way for all presidents if you put the pom poms down.

trump is the reply to obama, NOT the reply to pull is together. as long as trump is in office, this is what we have. it's a jacked up symbiotic relationship between trumps fucked up need to feed his ego and people's fucked up need to tell him what an ass he is. they both thrive on it and oddly enough probably like it. trump will do some good things for this country, some things i simply have zero opinion on, and some things i hate. i appreciate his business contributions and i ignore his tweets and think the wall is ass-nugget stupid. (queue TELL ISRAEL THAT ASSHOLE!!!). i think our problems with mexico can be resolved to our mutual benefit if you try but it will take some drug clean up in mexico and that's never fared well. so what else can we do to lessen their impact? i'd have to think legal weed has put a dent in their wallets but now they just do different drugs. can't make those legal so what else can we do? then what can we do to provide a solid temp visa solution that both sides are a part of creating so it won't become a political tool from admin to admin. i think he's fucking up hard here but he does that again to feed his ego.

while i agree the next generation will have to come in and hopefully "do better" i look around at hogg and his vile hate and see a cumulation of how we as adults have acted for pretty much all of his own life as a huge contributor to who he is today. you see, the bullshit we pull on each other we teach our kids. how we deal with each other, we teach our kids.

and these days we're letting them down hard all around, all sides. but hey, we can keep hating cause that's about all we have left anymore.

 

[Mac1958]

i look around at hogg and his vile hate and see a cumulation of how we as adults have acted for pretty much all of his own life as a huge contributor to who he is today. you see, the bullshit we pull on each other we teach our kids. how we deal with each other, we teach our kids.
and these days we're letting them down hard all around, all sides. but hey, we can keep hating cause that's about all we have left anymore.

This goes back to the notion that it has been so long since we communicated normally, that we have literally lost the skill to do so.

Like many skills, you use it or you lose it.

And of course, we're going to pass what remains to our kids. This is a part of a culture in decay.
.

 

[iceberg]

i look around at hogg and his vile hate and see a cumulation of how we as adults have acted for pretty much all of his own life as a huge contributor to who he is today. you see, the bullshit we pull on each other we teach our kids. how we deal with each other, we teach our kids.
and these days we're letting them down hard all around, all sides. but hey, we can keep hating cause that's about all we have left anymore.

This goes back to the notion that it has been so long since we communicated normally, that we have literally lost the skill to do so.

Like many skills, you use it or you lose it.

And of course, we're going to pass what remains to our kids. This is a part of a culture in decay.
.

yep. we can tell our kids to be better than us if we don't show us trying to practice what we preach.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

 

[iceberg]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

 

[Mac1958]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

 

[iceberg]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

people are so defensive and looking for a reason to dog on someone. i can do it also, to be sure. but at least i try to stop and understand what is being said. not always successful but it really takes 2 to have that type of a conversation. but we have many who love to pigeonhole people into a category so they can pre-define their thoughts and make them talk their way out of a place they never put themselves in.

gonna take a lot of patience with each other to get out of this mess and look around, we ain't got that.

 

[Mac1958]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

people are so defensive and looking for a reason to dog on someone. i can do it also, to be sure. but at least i try to stop and understand what is being said. not always successful but it really takes 2 to have that type of a conversation. but we have many who love to pigeonhole people into a category so they can pre-define their thoughts and make them talk their way out of a place they never put themselves in.

gonna take a lot of patience with each other to get out of this mess and look around, we ain't got that.

I still hold out hope, but I don't see how it happens.
.

 

[iceberg]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

people are so defensive and looking for a reason to dog on someone. i can do it also, to be sure. but at least i try to stop and understand what is being said. not always successful but it really takes 2 to have that type of a conversation. but we have many who love to pigeonhole people into a category so they can pre-define their thoughts and make them talk their way out of a place they never put themselves in.

gonna take a lot of patience with each other to get out of this mess and look around, we ain't got that.

I still hold out hope, but I don't see how it happens.
.

patience.

i've made headway with people in here i never thought i would. some i'll never reach and that's fine. that's life. but i'll keep looking for some common ground when i can, stand my ground when i can't.

 

[Cellblock2429]

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

people are so defensive and looking for a reason to dog on someone. i can do it also, to be sure. but at least i try to stop and understand what is being said. not always successful but it really takes 2 to have that type of a conversation. but we have many who love to pigeonhole people into a category so they can pre-define their thoughts and make them talk their way out of a place they never put themselves in.

gonna take a lot of patience with each other to get out of this mess and look around, we ain't got that.

I still hold out hope, but I don't see how it happens.
.

patience.

i've made headway with people in here i never thought i would. some i'll never reach and that's fine. that's life. but i'll keep looking for some common ground when i can, stand my ground when i can't.

/——/ MAC gave two false premises and I refuse to accept them. Everyone means everyone, not many, not some and not a few. Libs have tried to paint all Republicans with the same brush for decades and I push back. No apologies.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

/——/ Well I can generalize too. ALL liberals want to shred the Constitution and turn America into a third world communist shit hole in the name of fairness. OK?

 

[Cellblock2429]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

/——-/ If you mean me, I reject all generalizations. Not all Democrats are left wing radicals hell bent on destroying our way of life. Some are, but not the majority.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

people are so defensive and looking for a reason to dog on someone. i can do it also, to be sure. but at least i try to stop and understand what is being said. not always successful but it really takes 2 to have that type of a conversation. but we have many who love to pigeonhole people into a category so they can pre-define their thoughts and make them talk their way out of a place they never put themselves in.

gonna take a lot of patience with each other to get out of this mess and look around, we ain't got that.

/——/ My point is, the OP’s subject line is:
Conservatives sold themselves two lies. And I reject that as a straw man argument.

 

[iceberg]

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

people are so defensive and looking for a reason to dog on someone. i can do it also, to be sure. but at least i try to stop and understand what is being said. not always successful but it really takes 2 to have that type of a conversation. but we have many who love to pigeonhole people into a category so they can pre-define their thoughts and make them talk their way out of a place they never put themselves in.

gonna take a lot of patience with each other to get out of this mess and look around, we ain't got that.

I still hold out hope, but I don't see how it happens.
.

patience.

i've made headway with people in here i never thought i would. some i'll never reach and that's fine. that's life. but i'll keep looking for some common ground when i can, stand my ground when i can't.

/——/ MAC gave two false premises and I refuse to accept them. Everyone means everyone, not many, not some and not a few. Libs have tried to paint all Republicans with the same brush for decades and I push back. No apologies.

and they do the same and here we are pushing and not listening.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Have you looked at FairVote?

Be realistic. That will never happen at a national level.

 

[iceberg]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

people are so defensive and looking for a reason to dog on someone. i can do it also, to be sure. but at least i try to stop and understand what is being said. not always successful but it really takes 2 to have that type of a conversation. but we have many who love to pigeonhole people into a category so they can pre-define their thoughts and make them talk their way out of a place they never put themselves in.

gonna take a lot of patience with each other to get out of this mess and look around, we ain't got that.

/——/ My point is, the OP’s subject line is:
Conservatives sold themselves two lies. And I reject that as a straw man argument.

as do i. but i talk through it to narrow it down and use this as a discussion starter, not ender.

 

[Cellblock2429]

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

people are so defensive and looking for a reason to dog on someone. i can do it also, to be sure. but at least i try to stop and understand what is being said. not always successful but it really takes 2 to have that type of a conversation. but we have many who love to pigeonhole people into a category so they can pre-define their thoughts and make them talk their way out of a place they never put themselves in.

gonna take a lot of patience with each other to get out of this mess and look around, we ain't got that.

/——/ My point is, the OP’s subject line is:
Conservatives sold themselves two lies. And I reject that as a straw man argument.

as do i. but i talk through it to narrow it down and use this as a discussion starter, not ender.

/——-/ You should reject their false premises. They have gone unchallenged for decades. All conservatives are racists, bigots who hate children blah blah blah. When these libs start an honest debate, then I’ll respond in kind.

 

[dblack]

Have you looked at FairVote?

Be realistic. That will never happen at a national level.

That's why the main fight is going on at the grassroots level. If it works well locally, and people get used to it, changing things nationally becomes a real possibility.

 

[MarcATL]

What makes no sense is that minorities are literally "RAISED" to believe that conservatives are racist! Ask yourself who is it that's drilling that idea into their heads and what motive they would have to do so?

I don't have to ask myself. I point out regularly that the Left has cynically leveraged PC and Identity Politics for the last couple of generations for political advantage, and that it has been wildly successful. My point here is that it's all about to pay off for them, as demographics are about to tip everything in their favor, and because the GOP has convinced itself - or, more accurately, allowed itself to be convinced by the wrong voices - that it doesn't have to do anything about it.

What makes no sense is that minorities are literally "RAISED" to believe that conservatives are racist! Ask yourself who is it that's drilling that idea into their heads and what motive they would have to do so? Perception isn't reality. Trump has never hung out with white nationalists. So why do so many of you on the left keep trying to claim that he's a racist? That's the main stream media and Democratic leaders misleading minorities. Why WOULD they do that, Mac? Isn't it obvious?

You're asking these questions as if I'm denying something. Are you not reading what I'm writing? Again, this is all being done for political advantage, because the Left understands that perception is reality when it comes to politics. I don't know why you and the GOP don't understand that. I'm agreeing with what you're saying and you don't seem to realize it. You're arguing against things I'm not saying.

However, you can't bring yourself to admit that there are indeed racists within the party. Good, old fashioned, butt scratching, tooth-missing, Hamm's-swilling, ignorant, racists. You can see them every day right here on this forum. You can't bring yourself to admit that Trump is supported by David Duke and white nationalists. You just deny the obvious, and minorities see that loud and clear. How in the world to you not realize they see this?

Everything you've said in our conversation is a perfect example of my point. You have been convinced that all you have to do is sit there, deny racism, pretend Duke and the white nationalists aren't there, and wait for minorities to wake up to how wonderful the GOP is. Such thinking is delusional in the extreme. It won't work. Minorities aren't buying it, nor will they. And here it comes, whether you understand it or not. Again, when Texas turns purple, this is over.
.

Basically.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[iceberg]

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

people are so defensive and looking for a reason to dog on someone. i can do it also, to be sure. but at least i try to stop and understand what is being said. not always successful but it really takes 2 to have that type of a conversation. but we have many who love to pigeonhole people into a category so they can pre-define their thoughts and make them talk their way out of a place they never put themselves in.

gonna take a lot of patience with each other to get out of this mess and look around, we ain't got that.

/——/ My point is, the OP’s subject line is:
Conservatives sold themselves two lies. And I reject that as a straw man argument.

as do i. but i talk through it to narrow it down and use this as a discussion starter, not ender.

/——-/ You should reject their false premises. They have gone unchallenged for decades. All conservatives are racists, bigots who hate children blah blah blah. When these libs start an honest debate, then I’ll respond in kind.

there's a lot of ways to reject something. screaming FUCK YOU while is a way has not been very productive for either side or we'd be better off today than 5 years ago by now.