Conservatives sold themselves two lies

[Flash]

The big lie of Liberals is that they are utterly convinced that this country would be better off living under the Communist Manifesto rather than The Bill of Rights.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Had I said the same thing about Democrats, he'd be just fine with it.

This place does get silly.
.

people are so defensive and looking for a reason to dog on someone. i can do it also, to be sure. but at least i try to stop and understand what is being said. not always successful but it really takes 2 to have that type of a conversation. but we have many who love to pigeonhole people into a category so they can pre-define their thoughts and make them talk their way out of a place they never put themselves in.

gonna take a lot of patience with each other to get out of this mess and look around, we ain't got that.

/——/ My point is, the OP’s subject line is:
Conservatives sold themselves two lies. And I reject that as a straw man argument.

as do i. but i talk through it to narrow it down and use this as a discussion starter, not ender.

/——-/ You should reject their false premises. They have gone unchallenged for decades. All conservatives are racists, bigots who hate children blah blah blah. When these libs start an honest debate, then I’ll respond in kind.

there's a lot of ways to reject something. screaming FUCK YOU while is a way has not been very productive for either side or we'd be better off today than 5 years ago by now.

/----/ OK when did I scream "FUCK YOU" ???? I said I address their false premises rather than accepting them as fact and try to modify. Why is that so confusing?

 

[JoeB131]

Anyone who thinks, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Kerry and Al Gore are all "moderates" is either incredibly stupid or willing to lie through their teeth rather than admit the obvious!

Again, guy, you are too far off to the right wing to know a moderate if he shook your hand.

What I don't see in your little diatribe is what RADICAL positions they took.

 

[JoeB131]

/——-/ Actually both of your strawman arguments are wrong. We never thought “everyone” would agree on anything. But alas, straw man arguments are your forte.

Wow, we are in agreement.... which is just when we get Mac to say something like, "The extreme left and right are the same", and not 'Mac is a pompous ass who makes bullshit arguments."

 

[JoeB131]

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

He's not generalizing... he's starting off with a bullshit premise and arguing the hell out of it. When someone, left or right, points out why his premise is bullshit, then he says that's proof of how unreasonable everyone else is.

His premise is that Democrats pandered to minorities..

Um. No, Republicans made the decision back in the 1980's to pander to white insecurities and can't change the songbook. Democrats only picked up the minority vote by default.

His other premise is that the Democrats are winning by incrementalism. Um. No. The pendulum does swing back and forth, but the main reason why Democrats will ultimately prevail is that not even Republicans want to live in the world their thought leaders imagine.

 

[Cellblock2429]

he's simply generalizing. would be literally impossible to speak in a way that won't get micro-analyzed these days to look for something to complain about.

He's not generalizing... he's starting off with a bullshit premise and arguing the hell out of it. When someone, left or right, points out why his premise is bullshit, then he says that's proof of how unreasonable everyone else is.

His premise is that Democrats pandered to minorities..

Um. No, Republicans made the decision back in the 1980's to pander to white insecurities and can't change the songbook. Democrats only picked up the minority vote by default.

His other premise is that the Democrats are winning by incrementalism. Um. No. The pendulum does swing back and forth, but the main reason why Democrats will ultimately prevail is that not even Republicans want to live in the world their thought leaders imagine.

/——/ Yeah, we all secretly want to live in DemocRAT utopia, Detroit.

 

[JoeB131]

/——/ Yeah, we all secretly want to live in DemocRAT utopia, Detroit.

Well, let's look at that.

Why is Detroit the mess it's in?

Used to a vibrant city, back in the day, when we had an auto industry. Guys brought home good union paychecks making cars.

Then the guys in the silk suits who supported Republicans got greedy, and put cars like the Pinto and the Gremlin and the Escort and the Chevette on the market, while the Germans and Japanese were producing quality cars.

And while people of my Dad's generation would never buy a Japanese car because they were pissed off over World War 2, people of my generation bought a Chevette or a Pinto and had nothing but trouble with it as a starter car, and went to a Japanese car instead.

To the point where the "Big Three" needed government bailouts to survive.

Um, yeah, but it was democratic policies that did that to Detroit. I know you really, really need to believe it.

 

[Oldstyle]

Anyone who thinks, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Kerry and Al Gore are all "moderates" is either incredibly stupid or willing to lie through their teeth rather than admit the obvious!

Again, guy, you are too far off to the right wing to know a moderate if he shook your hand.

What I don't see in your little diatribe is what RADICAL positions they took.

As I said before...examine each candidate's voting record while in the Senate. Clinton, Obama, Kerry and Gore have voting records that ALL were among the most liberal in the Senate! Your claim that they are all "moderates" is laughable!

 

[JoeB131]

As I said before...examine each candidate's voting record while in the Senate. Clinton, Obama, Kerry and Gore have voting records that ALL were among the most liberal in the Senate! Your claim that they are all "moderates" is laughable!

Wow, great job AVOIDING the question.

If their records were so fucking liberal, you can cite bills they actually voted for that were soooo out of the mainstream.

You really can't. If anything, they were too cautious.

 

[Oldstyle]

/——/ Yeah, we all secretly want to live in DemocRAT utopia, Detroit.

Well, let's look at that.

Why is Detroit the mess it's in?

Used to a vibrant city, back in the day, when we had an auto industry. Guys brought home good union paychecks making cars.

Then the guys in the silk suits who supported Republicans got greedy, and put cars like the Pinto and the Gremlin and the Escort and the Chevette on the market, while the Germans and Japanese were producing quality cars.

And while people of my Dad's generation would never buy a Japanese car because they were pissed off over World War 2, people of my generation bought a Chevette or a Pinto and had nothing but trouble with it as a starter car, and went to a Japanese car instead.

To the point where the "Big Three" needed government bailouts to survive.

Um, yeah, but it was democratic policies that did that to Detroit. I know you really, really need to believe it.

As usual, Joey...you're clueless! The Japanese were producing "compact" cars while Detroit was turning out large gas guzzlers. Chevettes and Pintos were hurriedly turned out by a Detroit struggling to downsize vehicles when we got hit with the oil embargo. People started buying Japanese and German cars because they were made by people who took pride in their craft and not union workers who made big bucks and didn't care what came off their assembly line. That wasn't the fault of the GOP.

 

[Oldstyle]

As I said before...examine each candidate's voting record while in the Senate. Clinton, Obama, Kerry and Gore have voting records that ALL were among the most liberal in the Senate! Your claim that they are all "moderates" is laughable!

Wow, great job AVOIDING the question.

If their records were so fucking liberal, you can cite bills they actually voted for that were soooo out of the mainstream.

You really can't. If anything, they were too cautious.

I'm citing their actual voting records in the Senate you buffoon! What are you citing? Every single one of those Democrats are at the far left of the Party for their voting records. So how is it that you can claim that they're all "moderates"? What do you base that claim on?

 

[JoeB131]

As usual, Joey...you're clueless! The Japanese were producing "compact" cars while Detroit was turning out large gas guzzlers. Chevettes and Pintos were hurriedly turned out by a Detroit struggling to downsize vehicles when we got hit with the oil embargo. People started buying Japanese and German cars because they were made by people who took pride in their craft and not union workers who made big bucks and didn't care what came off their assembly line. That wasn't the fault of the GOP.

Okay, guy, a whole bunch of things wrong with that statement.

It wasn't the union guys on the assembly line who approved bad designs, it was the suits in the office.

For instance, the Pinto (The barbecue that seats four) could have had its major design flaw fixed for $11.00 a unit, but the Guys in Silk Suits decided that it would be cheaper to just pay off the people who got burned than recall millions of units.

Oh, for the record, Japanese and German Automakers have stronger unions than we do. They even have a say in who the executives of the company are.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm citing their actual voting records in the Senate you buffoon! What are you citing? Every single one of those Democrats are at the far left of the Party for their voting records. So how is it that you can claim that they're all "moderates"? What do you base that claim on?

Okay, so we are on your THIRD TRY at answering this question, and you have yet to cite to me a law that they supported that was 'way out of the mainstream".

It would seem to be a pretty simple task, really.

 

[Oldstyle]

As usual, Joey...you're clueless! The Japanese were producing "compact" cars while Detroit was turning out large gas guzzlers. Chevettes and Pintos were hurriedly turned out by a Detroit struggling to downsize vehicles when we got hit with the oil embargo. People started buying Japanese and German cars because they were made by people who took pride in their craft and not union workers who made big bucks and didn't care what came off their assembly line. That wasn't the fault of the GOP.

Okay, guy, a whole bunch of things wrong with that statement.

It wasn't the union guys on the assembly line who approved bad designs, it was the suits in the office.

For instance, the Pinto (The barbecue that seats four) could have had its major design flaw fixed for $11.00 a unit, but the Guys in Silk Suits decided that it would be cheaper to just pay off the people who got burned than recall millions of units.

Oh, for the record, Japanese and German Automakers have stronger unions than we do. They even have a say in who the executives of the company are.

People didn't stop buying American cars because of design flaws...they stopped buying them because of the quality of construction and the cost...something that can be traced right back to UAW union workers making huge money and doing shoddy work. To be blunt...way too many of those workers simply stopped caring about putting out a well made car.

 

[Oldstyle]

I'm citing their actual voting records in the Senate you buffoon! What are you citing? Every single one of those Democrats are at the far left of the Party for their voting records. So how is it that you can claim that they're all "moderates"? What do you base that claim on?

Okay, so we are on your THIRD TRY at answering this question, and you have yet to cite to me a law that they supported that was 'way out of the mainstream".

It would seem to be a pretty simple task, really.

Here's the perfect illustration of what I'm talking about, Joey. Who's being touted as the favorite Democrat to run for President in the next election? I'll give you a hint...she's the candidate who has the most liberal voting record in the US Senate right now! You of course will claim that she's a "moderate" because you don't have an honest bone in your body!

 

[JoeB131]

People didn't stop buying American cars because of design flaws...they stopped buying them because of the quality of construction and the cost...something that can be traced right back to UAW union workers making huge money and doing shoddy work. To be blunt...way too many of those workers simply stopped caring about putting out a well made car.

Okay, you do realize that quality and design are related, right?

Here's the perfect illustration of what I'm talking about, Joey. Who's being touted as the favorite Democrat to run for President in the next election? I'll give you a hint...she's the candidate who has the most liberal voting record in the US Senate right now! You of course will claim that she's a "moderate" because you don't have an honest bone in your body!

I gave you four tries at this question, you have YET- YET to give me an example of an out of the mainstream law that these last four candidates supported that Most Americans would have said, "Yeah, that sounds pretty reasonable."

Come on, one more time, buddy. List some crazy law these guys supported that was pretty much marching us off the gulags.

 

[Oldstyle]

People didn't stop buying American cars because of design flaws...they stopped buying them because of the quality of construction and the cost...something that can be traced right back to UAW union workers making huge money and doing shoddy work. To be blunt...way too many of those workers simply stopped caring about putting out a well made car.

Okay, you do realize that quality and design are related, right?

Here's the perfect illustration of what I'm talking about, Joey. Who's being touted as the favorite Democrat to run for President in the next election? I'll give you a hint...she's the candidate who has the most liberal voting record in the US Senate right now! You of course will claim that she's a "moderate" because you don't have an honest bone in your body!

I gave you four tries at this question, you have YET- YET to give me an example of an out of the mainstream law that these last four candidates supported that Most Americans would have said, "Yeah, that sounds pretty reasonable."

Come on, one more time, buddy. List some crazy law these guys supported that was pretty much marching us off the gulags.

Where did I ever claim anyone was passing laws that would march people off to the "gulags"? I simply pointed out that your claim that Clinton, Obama, Kerry and Gore were all "moderates" was belied by their voting records in the Senate before you Democrats nominated them! So who's being put forth as the front runner for the next Democratic nominee? That would be Kamala Harris. So who has the most liberal voting record in the Senate right now? That would be Kamala Harris! Running far left candidates is what the Democratic Party does, Joey and the fact that you're unwilling to admit that shows how dishonest you are!

 

[JoeB131]

I simply pointed out that your claim that Clinton, Obama, Kerry and Gore were all "moderates" was belied by their voting records in the Senate before you Democrats nominated them!

So you should be able to point out an exact law they supported that was out of the mainstream. Come on, man, I've given you FIVE CHANCES now to cite something they supported that was crazy liberal.

So who's being put forth as the front runner for the next Democratic nominee? That would be Kamala Harris. So who has the most liberal voting record in the Senate right now? That would be Kamala Harris!

Except no one is really supporting her, and frankly, if she is a viable candidate, it would be because Trump has fucked this up so badly that a black woman would seem viable and Oprah is busy.

So again- you can no doubt cite a totally crazy law she supported that most Americans don't agree with.

This isn't really a complicated thing. Then again, your movement is against denying people what they want. If we had a national referendum, we'd probably ban guns and have universal health care, and that would be the point where you'd tell us that the Founding Slave Rapists gave us a Republic for a reason instead of direct democracy.

 

[Cellblock2429]

/——/ Yeah, we all secretly want to live in DemocRAT utopia, Detroit.

Well, let's look at that.

Why is Detroit the mess it's in?

Used to a vibrant city, back in the day, when we had an auto industry. Guys brought home good union paychecks making cars.

Then the guys in the silk suits who supported Republicans got greedy, and put cars like the Pinto and the Gremlin and the Escort and the Chevette on the market, while the Germans and Japanese were producing quality cars.

And while people of my Dad's generation would never buy a Japanese car because they were pissed off over World War 2, people of my generation bought a Chevette or a Pinto and had nothing but trouble with it as a starter car, and went to a Japanese car instead.

To the point where the "Big Three" needed government bailouts to survive.

Um, yeah, but it was democratic policies that did that to Detroit. I know you really, really need to believe it.

/----/ OH it's Republicans who are responsible for Detroit turning out low quality crap. All of the Republican bean counters who took control away from the engineers and designers were democrats. Man you really are the expert on the Big Three.
So tell us, did the DemocRATs take control again in the 1980s by addressing the poor quality the Republicans engineered into the cheap econo cars?
80s, poor quality tripped the big 3; then they got ... - Automotive News
www.autonews.com/.../in-80s-poor-quality-tripped-the-big-3%3B-then-they-got-their...
Jun 26, 1996 - Harbour and other analysts refuse to nail down a date when U.S. auto quality turned around, but they repeatedly point out two hallmarks: Saturn's 1991 ... of the LeBaron and other K-car spinoffs was the same old small engine when cheap gasoline was spurring demand for bigger cars with bigger engines.

 

[JoeB131]

OH it's Republicans who are responsible for Detroit turning out low quality crap. All of the Republican bean counters who took control away from the engineers and designers were democrats. Man you really are the expert on the Big Three.

Given I've worked for manufacturers who provide parts to the big three... um, yeah.

So tell us, did the DemocRATs take control again in the 1980s by addressing the poor quality the Republicans engineered into the cheap econo cars?

Um, you clowns were in charge in the 1980's. You even got Reagan to protect Detroit by putting limits on what the Japanese could import. (which the Japanese got around by simply doing final assembly here.)

My point stands, though. While the Japanese and Germans concentrated on quality, Detroit concentrated on obscene profits.

And they lost.