Conservatives

[AnnECUCherry]

Are we redefining "poor" to only include those who are on welfare now? Cause they both still seemed poor to me.

A family described as "upper middle class," as Gates' family was, is "poor" to you?

And the college Jobs attended, Reed College, is private, selective, and costly.

 

[Said1]

Are we redefining "poor" to only include those who are on welfare now? Cause they both still seemed poor to me.

A family described as "upper middle class," as Gates' family was, is "poor" to you?

And the college Jobs attended, Reed College, is private, selective, and costly.

What's the yearly tuition at a decent college/university, today? For comparison purposes.

Did Jobs get a student loan?

 

[AnnECUCherry]

Steve Jobs was a poor, orphan drop out.

An adoptee is not an "orphan." And he inherited a high IQ. That he didn't complete a degree is no indication that he didn't benefit from his college eduction.

Jobs was born in San Francisco[1] and was adopted by Paul and Clara (née Hagopian) Jobs of Mountain View, Santa Clara County, California who named him Steven Paul. Paul and Clara also had a daughter, Patty. His biological parents, Joanne Carole Schieble and Abdulfattah Jandali[7] — a graduate student from Syria who became a political science professor[7] — later married and gave birth to Jobs' sister, the novelist Mona Simpson.

Jobs attended Cupertino Junior High School and Homestead High School in Cupertino, California,[13] and frequented after-school lectures at the Hewlett-Packard Company in Palo Alto, California. He was soon hired there and worked with Steve Wozniak as a summer employee.[15] In 1972, Jobs graduated from high school and enrolled in Reed College in Portland, Oregon....

In 1976, Steve Jobs and Stephen Wozniak, with funding from multimillionaire A.C. "Mike" Markkula, founded Apple....

Steve Jobs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Opps, he was adopted. I did not claim he didn't benefit from whatever education he did receive prior to dropping out - and inherited IQ? Genes that can influence IQ are inherited, but IQ itself is not. Inherited portions are unpredictable, too. So it's more like a correlation. which is not fact.

Anyway, you're missing the point entirely. He probably had a decent, modest upbringing, and a much less 'exclusive' secondary education than Gates.

However, his post-secondary education was at an exclusive college.

The point I am making is that pointing out people with extraordinary backgrounds, including family money and the genes to develop a high IQ, doesn't demonstrate that just anybody can accomplish what they did, if they only want it badly enough. Clearly, these two men had advantages many people don't -- and those advantages were the result of the circumstances into which they were born.

 

[Said1]

An adoptee is not an "orphan." And he inherited a high IQ. That he didn't complete a degree is no indication that he didn't benefit from his college eduction.

Jobs was born in San Francisco[1] and was adopted by Paul and Clara (née Hagopian) Jobs of Mountain View, Santa Clara County, California who named him Steven Paul. Paul and Clara also had a daughter, Patty. His biological parents, Joanne Carole Schieble and Abdulfattah Jandali[7] — a graduate student from Syria who became a political science professor[7] — later married and gave birth to Jobs' sister, the novelist Mona Simpson.

Jobs attended Cupertino Junior High School and Homestead High School in Cupertino, California,[13] and frequented after-school lectures at the Hewlett-Packard Company in Palo Alto, California. He was soon hired there and worked with Steve Wozniak as a summer employee.[15] In 1972, Jobs graduated from high school and enrolled in Reed College in Portland, Oregon....

In 1976, Steve Jobs and Stephen Wozniak, with funding from multimillionaire A.C. "Mike" Markkula, founded Apple....

Steve Jobs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Opps, he was adopted. I did not claim he didn't benefit from whatever education he did receive prior to dropping out - and inherited IQ? Genes that can influence IQ are inherited, but IQ itself is not. Inherited portions are unpredictable, too. So it's more like a correlation. which is not fact.

Anyway, you're missing the point entirely. He probably had a decent, modest upbringing, and a much less 'exclusive' secondary education than Gates.

However, his post-secondary education was at an exclusive college.

The point I am making is that pointing out people with extraordinary backgrounds, including family money and the genes to develop a high IQ, doesn't demonstrate that just anybody can accomplish what they did, if they only want it badly enough. Clearly, these two men had advantages many people don't -- and those advantages were the result of the circumstances into which they were born.

I don't know how Jobs paid for the little education he did receive, do you? Being in an environment where you can make the connections needed is important, that much IS true.

But, as I said, genes are inherited, IQ is not. IQ is largely dependent on environment - Jobs could have went an entirely different direction with different parents.

Your reductionism does not explain the hole.

 

[AnnECUCherry]

Are we redefining "poor" to only include those who are on welfare now? Cause they both still seemed poor to me.

A family described as "upper middle class," as Gates' family was, is "poor" to you?

And the college Jobs attended, Reed College, is private, selective, and costly.

What's the yearly tuition at a decent college/university, today? For comparison purposes.

Did Jobs get a student loan?

According to Wikipedia, the tuition at the college Jobs attended is in the Duke range.

It's, of course, possible to attend less expensive schools, but not only did Jobs attend a costly school (no idea whether or not he received financial aid) but the one he attended is considered very exclusive, very difficult to get into. It touts the high percentage of its graduates who go on to earn doctorates.

...in 2005 Reed did submit statistics to the Princeton Review, and received first in Overall Undergraduate Academic Experience. They continued to rank in the top 5 every year since.


[edit] Academic honors

Reed has produced the second-highest number of Rhodes scholars for any liberal arts college—31—as well as over fifty Fulbright Scholars, over sixty Watson Fellows, and two MacArthur ("Genius") Award winners.[6][34] A very high proportion of Reed graduates go on to earn Ph.D.s, particularly in the sciences, history, political science, and philosophy. Reed is third in percentage of its graduates who go on to earn Ph.D.s in all disciplines, after only Caltech and Harvey Mudd.[7] In 1961, Scientific American declared that second only to Caltech, "This small college in Oregon has been far and away more productive of future scientists than any other institution in the U.S."[35][36] Reed is first in this percentage in biology, second in chemistry and humanities, third in history, foreign languages, and political science, fourth in the physical sciences, math and computer science, and science and engineering, fifth in physics and social sciences, sixth in anthropology, seventh in area and ethnic studies and linguistics, and eighth in English literature and the medical sciences.[7]

Reed's debating team, which had existed for only two years at the time, was awarded the first place sweepstakes trophy for Division II schools at the final tournament of the Northwest Forensics Conference in February 2004.

Loren Pope, former education editor for The New York Times, called Reed "the most intellectual college in the country."[37] The Princeton Review, in its publication "The Best 361 Colleges," ranked Reed number one in the category "Best Overall Academic Experience For Undergraduates". It also ranked number one in the "Students Never Stop Studying" category and in the category of "Students Ignore God on a Regular Basis". In August 2006, Newsweek magazine named Reed as one of twenty-five "New Ivies,"[38] listing it among "the nation's elite colleges"....

Reed College - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

You're the one who brought up the term 'socialist.'

Is that because you have the belt-buckle with the term?

BTW, you know that Keynes criticized FDR, don't you?

I'm just trying to head off any inaccurate misconceptions about the New Deal. I've actually heard some claim that Keynesianism is a form of socialism.

ROFLMNAO... SWEET MOTHER...

Keynsianism...? Keynsian economics IS socialism... PERIOD.

And this without regard to the infinite subtle layers of true socialism, which can never be 'called' socialism, because each layer is comprised of infinite socialist facets; each one directly attributable to historic circumstances wherein non-socialists subverted true socialism by forcing true socialism to succumb to the imperfections of the non-socialism...

 

[Yukon]

A Conservative is really nothing more than a frustrated facist.

 

[Annie]

A Conservative is really nothing more than a frustrated facist.

And liberals are unfrustrated fascists!

 

[Yukon]

Liberals love nymphomaniacs and Conservatives are afraid of them.

 

[Annie]

Liberals love nymphomaniacs and Conservatives are afraid of them.

Conservatives don't touch them, if they know. Just smart.

 

[Yukon]

They dont know what to do with them.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

I'm against the patriot act and FISA, obviously. Against both wars. Against pretty much everything Bush did. But Obama is the same old statist, in a different face. Same policies, coming from a different political party, does not have different outcomes. He expanded the war in Afghanistan. Obama has not reversed the Patriot Act. He has not reversed FISA. Instead, he bails out those not worthy of bailouts with money of those that had nothing to do with this crisis.

As for what I would do if I was FDR. Realizing that Hoover's interventionist policies were a complete and utter failure, I'd allow the market to work. Realizing Hoover's bailouts would never cure the economy, I'd simply allow bad companies to fail. I'd certainly not create the conditions for more men to be forced out of work, out of food and without shelter. But I am a reasonable man, and FDR was a ruthless dictator.

Einstein said the mark of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for different results. I think we can firmly conclude that the entire government is insane, by that justification.

the powers available in the Patriot act are very serious, and with an honorable man in charge of them, someone like John Ashcroft, i had no problems with them
when he left, i had BIG problems

as for FISA, the telephone network is not a private system, its a public network
anyone and everyone can access it
you do NOT have privacy in public
btw, the internet uses virtually the same network

Now that is rich! You don't judge laws on the merits, but who is enforcing them. Beautiful.

Since you think that these powers have fallen into the wrong hands, I must ask, were you stupid enough to think that wouldn't happen? Ooops.....forgot who I was talking to. Yep. Plenty stupid.

He wasn't judging law, he was judging character... and he is exactly right... There were honorable people, Ashcroft being one, who can be trusted with such power...

There are no honorable leftists... thus we can trust this administration to abuse their power and the Powers of the USAPA and FISA are probably already in the bag. Of course if NBC had video tape with a .000001 time stamp, of The Lord of the Idiots: King Hussein personally listening in on the Telephone Conversation of some 7 year old little girl and her grandmother.... while another Spook was in Granny's office rifling through her tax returns... we wouldn't hear a word about it.

But it'll come out sooner or later...

 

[DiveCon]

They dont know what to do with them.

no, we know what to do with them, we just dont want to do it WITH them

 

[Said1]

A family described as "upper middle class," as Gates' family was, is "poor" to you?

And the college Jobs attended, Reed College, is private, selective, and costly.

What's the yearly tuition at a decent college/university, today? For comparison purposes.

Did Jobs get a student loan?

According to Wikipedia, the tuition at the college Jobs attended is in the Duke range.

It's, of course, possible to attend less expensive schools, but not only did Jobs attend a costly school (no idea whether or not he received financial aid) but the one he attended is considered very exclusive, very difficult to get into. It touts the high percentage of its graduates who go on to earn doctorates.

...in 2005 Reed did submit statistics to the Princeton Review, and received first in Overall Undergraduate Academic Experience. They continued to rank in the top 5 every year since.


[edit] Academic honors

Reed has produced the second-highest number of Rhodes scholars for any liberal arts college—31—as well as over fifty Fulbright Scholars, over sixty Watson Fellows, and two MacArthur ("Genius") Award winners.[6][34] A very high proportion of Reed graduates go on to earn Ph.D.s, particularly in the sciences, history, political science, and philosophy. Reed is third in percentage of its graduates who go on to earn Ph.D.s in all disciplines, after only Caltech and Harvey Mudd.[7] In 1961, Scientific American declared that second only to Caltech, "This small college in Oregon has been far and away more productive of future scientists than any other institution in the U.S."[35][36] Reed is first in this percentage in biology, second in chemistry and humanities, third in history, foreign languages, and political science, fourth in the physical sciences, math and computer science, and science and engineering, fifth in physics and social sciences, sixth in anthropology, seventh in area and ethnic studies and linguistics, and eighth in English literature and the medical sciences.[7]

Reed's debating team, which had existed for only two years at the time, was awarded the first place sweepstakes trophy for Division II schools at the final tournament of the Northwest Forensics Conference in February 2004.

Loren Pope, former education editor for The New York Times, called Reed "the most intellectual college in the country."[37] The Princeton Review, in its publication "The Best 361 Colleges," ranked Reed number one in the category "Best Overall Academic Experience For Undergraduates". It also ranked number one in the "Students Never Stop Studying" category and in the category of "Students Ignore God on a Regular Basis". In August 2006, Newsweek magazine named Reed as one of twenty-five "New Ivies,"[38] listing it among "the nation's elite colleges

Reed College - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This has nothing to do with what I asked. I have no qualms with Reed College being 'exclusive' etc.

There would be no such thing as scholarships if smart people didn't need money for college, right?


This is a good speach he gave some time ago, answers a few 'questions':

'You've got to find what you love,' Jobs says

This is the text of the Commencement address by Steve Jobs, CEO of Apple Computer and of Pixar Animation Studios, delivered on June 12, 2005.

I am honored to be with you today at your commencement from one of the finest universities in the world. I never graduated from college. Truth be told, this is the closest I've ever gotten to a college graduation. Today I want to tell you three stories from my life. That's it. No big deal. Just three stories.

The first story is about connecting the dots.

I dropped out of Reed College after the first 6 months, but then stayed around as a drop-in for another 18 months or so before I really quit. So why did I drop out?

It started before I was born. My biological mother was a young, unwed college graduate student, and she decided to put me up for adoption. She felt very strongly that I should be adopted by college graduates, so everything was all set for me to be adopted at birth by a lawyer and his wife. Except that when I popped out they decided at the last minute that they really wanted a girl. So my parents, who were on a waiting list, got a call in the middle of the night asking: "We have an unexpected baby boy; do you want him?" They said: "Of course." My biological mother later found out that my mother had never graduated from college and that my father had never graduated from high school. She refused to sign the final adoption papers. She only relented a few months later when my parents promised that I would someday go to college.

And 17 years later I did go to college. But I naively chose a college that was almost as expensive as Stanford, and all of my working-class parents' savings were being spent on my college tuition. After six months, I couldn't see the value in it. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and no idea how college was going to help me figure it out. And here I was spending all of the money my parents had saved their entire life. So I decided to drop out and trust that it would all work out OK. It was pretty scary at the time, but looking back it was one of the best decisions I ever made. The minute I dropped out I could stop taking the required classes that didn't interest me, and begin dropping in on the ones that looked interesting.

It wasn't all romantic. I didn't have a dorm room, so I slept on the floor in friends' rooms, I returned coke bottles for the 5¢ deposits to buy food with, and I would walk the 7 miles across town every Sunday night to get one good meal a week at the Hare Krishna temple. I loved it. And much of what I stumbled into by following my curiosity and intuition turned out to be priceless later on. Let me give you one example:

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2005/june15/jobs-061505.html

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Hey Republicans--why not make a DVD called "HOW TO BE A CONSERVATIVE"

No seriously. Really! This is not a joke! Make an informational DVD on conservative principles and how to implement and apply them to everyday situations!!

Oh there are all manner of copies of the US founding charter...

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

A Conservative is really nothing more than a frustrated facist.

Fascism is solely, wholly, thoroughly and utterly a schism of leftism... it's socialism light.

Thus Fascism, like its marginally more offensive nieghboring schism: Socialism, is the very antithesis of the American... OKA: A Conservative.

 

[Yurt]

Hey Republicans--why not make a DVD called "HOW TO BE A CONSERVATIVE"

No seriously. Really! This is not a joke! Make an informational DVD on conservative principles and how to implement and apply them to everyday situations!!

nah, maybe republicans should copy the dem strategy of complaining, whining and lying....worked well for them

 

[AnnECUCherry]

Opps, he was adopted. I did not claim he didn't benefit from whatever education he did receive prior to dropping out - and inherited IQ? Genes that can influence IQ are inherited, but IQ itself is not. Inherited portions are unpredictable, too. So it's more like a correlation. which is not fact.

Anyway, you're missing the point entirely. He probably had a decent, modest upbringing, and a much less 'exclusive' secondary education than Gates.

However, his post-secondary education was at an exclusive college.

The point I am making is that pointing out people with extraordinary backgrounds, including family money and the genes to develop a high IQ, doesn't demonstrate that just anybody can accomplish what they did, if they only want it badly enough. Clearly, these two men had advantages many people don't -- and those advantages were the result of the circumstances into which they were born.

I don't know how Jobs paid for the little education he did receive, do you? Being in an environment where you can make the connections needed is important, that much IS true.

But, as I said, genes are inherited, IQ is not. IQ is largely dependent on environment - Jobs could have went an entirely different direction with different parents.

Your reductionism does not explain the hole.

Of course, Jobs could have ended up differently had he different parents. That's the point. Parents are part of the circumstances into which people are born.

No one is saying that people are doomed to failure or destined for success because of their particular circumstances, but it does have to be recognized that people born in advantaged circumstances -- and that doesn't just mean money -- have greater opportunity.

And it's important for us not to just blow off this truth with "Oh, everybody has the same opportunity. If they don't succeed, they're just lazy." Because that is simply not true. It is clearly very difficult for some people to overcome the negative circumstances into which they were born.

Our ignoring that some people start out at a disadvantage also lends itself to our not trying to do something to better their chances for success.

And it's not true that IQ is solely a function of environment. Retarded parents don't give birth to geniuses.

 

[KittenKoder]

No, Jobs would have likely still been as successful no matter what the circumstances, although the most spoiled and well off people when they are young tend to screw up a lot more and wind up nothing but movie stars ...

 

[AnnECUCherry]

What's the yearly tuition at a decent college/university, today? For comparison purposes.

Did Jobs get a student loan?

According to Wikipedia, the tuition at the college Jobs attended is in the Duke range.

It's, of course, possible to attend less expensive schools, but not only did Jobs attend a costly school (no idea whether or not he received financial aid) but the one he attended is considered very exclusive, very difficult to get into. It touts the high percentage of its graduates who go on to earn doctorates.

...in 2005 Reed did submit statistics to the Princeton Review, and received first in Overall Undergraduate Academic Experience. They continued to rank in the top 5 every year since.


[edit] Academic honors

Reed has produced the second-highest number of Rhodes scholars for any liberal arts college—31—as well as over fifty Fulbright Scholars, over sixty Watson Fellows, and two MacArthur ("Genius") Award winners.[6][34] A very high proportion of Reed graduates go on to earn Ph.D.s, particularly in the sciences, history, political science, and philosophy. Reed is third in percentage of its graduates who go on to earn Ph.D.s in all disciplines, after only Caltech and Harvey Mudd.[7] In 1961, Scientific American declared that second only to Caltech, "This small college in Oregon has been far and away more productive of future scientists than any other institution in the U.S."[35][36] Reed is first in this percentage in biology, second in chemistry and humanities, third in history, foreign languages, and political science, fourth in the physical sciences, math and computer science, and science and engineering, fifth in physics and social sciences, sixth in anthropology, seventh in area and ethnic studies and linguistics, and eighth in English literature and the medical sciences.[7]

Reed's debating team, which had existed for only two years at the time, was awarded the first place sweepstakes trophy for Division II schools at the final tournament of the Northwest Forensics Conference in February 2004.

Loren Pope, former education editor for The New York Times, called Reed "the most intellectual college in the country."[37] The Princeton Review, in its publication "The Best 361 Colleges," ranked Reed number one in the category "Best Overall Academic Experience For Undergraduates". It also ranked number one in the "Students Never Stop Studying" category and in the category of "Students Ignore God on a Regular Basis". In August 2006, Newsweek magazine named Reed as one of twenty-five "New Ivies,"[38] listing it among "the nation's elite colleges

Reed College - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This has nothing to do with what I asked. I have no qualms with Reed College being 'exclusive' etc.

There would be no such thing as scholarships if smart people didn't need money for college, right?


This is a good speach he gave some time ago, answers a few 'questions':

'You've got to find what you love,' Jobs says

This is the text of the Commencement address by Steve Jobs, CEO of Apple Computer and of Pixar Animation Studios, delivered on June 12, 2005.

I am honored to be with you today at your commencement from one of the finest universities in the world. I never graduated from college. Truth be told, this is the closest I've ever gotten to a college graduation. Today I want to tell you three stories from my life. That's it. No big deal. Just three stories.

The first story is about connecting the dots.

I dropped out of Reed College after the first 6 months, but then stayed around as a drop-in for another 18 months or so before I really quit. So why did I drop out?

It started before I was born. My biological mother was a young, unwed college graduate student, and she decided to put me up for adoption. She felt very strongly that I should be adopted by college graduates, so everything was all set for me to be adopted at birth by a lawyer and his wife. Except that when I popped out they decided at the last minute that they really wanted a girl. So my parents, who were on a waiting list, got a call in the middle of the night asking: "We have an unexpected baby boy; do you want him?" They said: "Of course." My biological mother later found out that my mother had never graduated from college and that my father had never graduated from high school. She refused to sign the final adoption papers. She only relented a few months later when my parents promised that I would someday go to college.

And 17 years later I did go to college. But I naively chose a college that was almost as expensive as Stanford, and all of my working-class parents' savings were being spent on my college tuition. After six months, I couldn't see the value in it. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and no idea how college was going to help me figure it out. And here I was spending all of the money my parents had saved their entire life. So I decided to drop out and trust that it would all work out OK. It was pretty scary at the time, but looking back it was one of the best decisions I ever made. The minute I dropped out I could stop taking the required classes that didn't interest me, and begin dropping in on the ones that looked interesting.

It wasn't all romantic. I didn't have a dorm room, so I slept on the floor in friends' rooms, I returned coke bottles for the 5¢ deposits to buy food with, and I would walk the 7 miles across town every Sunday night to get one good meal a week at the Hare Krishna temple. I loved it. And much of what I stumbled into by following my curiosity and intuition turned out to be priceless later on. Let me give you one example:

Text of Steve Jobs' Commencement address (2005)

The circumstances into which people are born isn't limited to how much money their parents have, although money certainly buys a lot of advantages poor people can't afford.

The circumstances into which people are born also includes the advantage or disadvantage of having or not having a relatively high IQ. Jobs' biological parents, for example, were at least intelligent enough to achieve academic success -- graduate school, a professorship.

Jobs' adoptive parents also supported academic ambition.

Those are advantages that some others don't have, and they are advantages that helped endow Jobs with, for example, the intuition and curiosity to which he referred.

And why are we using Jobs and Gates as examples, anyway? Clearly, people with high IQs have greater opportunity than people who are less well endowed mentally.