Creationists

[UltimateReality]

The "gentleman" is a religious loon.

Host a Group or Private Canyon Tour



As is so typical with creationist loons, his first paragraph reeks of conspiracy theory babble.

Are there really "mile deep layers of strata which have been removed from above the rim of Grand Canyon"? Gee whiz, it must have been those "evilutionists" out under the cover of darkness with rakes and shovels removing those alleged "mile deep layers of strata"

What a sorry, pathetic joke.

The next paragaph is more conspiracy, loonish behavior. So is there really a "CREATION", gawd rock?

Where do they find these loons?

I love it when your hatred gets revealed.

I love it when you have have nothing to offer as a rebuttal and are thus forced to offer only juvenile personal attacks.

 

[Hollie]

Did anyone notice that the fundies' "quotes" are frequently 1950's vintage material from a Christian creationist website?

Chuckle.

Funny, coming from the tool who repeatedly borrows Dawkins question from The God Delusion of who designed the designer and then claims she doesn't know who Dawkins is.

My creepy stalker feels ignored.

 

[Hollie]

I love it when your hatred gets revealed.

I love it when you have have nothing to offer as a rebuttal and are thus forced to offer only juvenile personal attacks.

Desperate, creepy stalker.

 

[Hollie]

Can someone on the creationist side advise why nearly all if not every radiometric dating method is wrong?

Assumptions and presuppositions are used.

Creationist will denigrate those methods of science which refute biblical tales and fables.

 

[Hollie]

New research may show that Neanderthals did not go extinct.
DNA derived from the Neanderthals has been found in many human populations around the globe.
http://wsws.org/en/articles/2011/12/nean-d27.html

Proof they were human.

Proof only that Christian fundamentalism is a serious illness.

 

[Hollie]

Can someone also advise how many species survived the global flood?

No way to answer this question.

Of course there is. Only Noah and his immediate family survived the flood tale.

The gawds provided incestuous relationships as the way to re-populate the earth.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Can someone also advise how many species survived the global flood?

No way to answer this question.

Well, can you advise how salt water fish survived as I assume the rain water was fresh. Also, how could fish that can only live in the rivers and not the oceans survive.

If you are looking for technical explanation here is one.



How Could Fish Survive the Genesis Flood?

by Kenneth B. Cumming, Ph.D.

Introduction

Much attention has been given to how the animals would be brought to, fit in, and survive on Noah's Ark.[1] But little or no concern has been voiced as to how aquatic animals could have lived outside in the Flood. Obviously, terrestrial air-breathing animals could not live through the land-covering deluge, but one would think aquatic animals would be right at home in all that water. Not so!

Water life has specific physiological and ecological requirements just like terrestrial life.[2] A catastrophe the size of the Flood would certainly bring with it gigantic problems affecting the very survival of many species. Indeed, the fossil record indicates that many taxonomic groups became extinct during the deposition of the geologic sedimentary layers.[3] Some organisms would have simply succumbed to the trauma of the turbulence. Others would have found suitable living space destroyed, and hence died for lack of appropriate habitat. For example, too much fresh water for obligate (bound to) marine species or vice versa would have led to death of those unable to adapt. Not only are there salt-concentration problems, but also temperature, light, oxygen, contaminants, and nutritional considerations. These must all be evaluated in discussing survival of water-dwelling creatures.

To simplify the exercise, five examples have been selected of fishes that are bound to fresh or salt water and those that can go between these major habitats. The chosen fishes (sunfish, catfish, trout, eel, and codfish) will be used to represent clear fresh water, muddy fresh water, anadromous (running up to fresh water from sea water to spawn), catadromous (the reverse) and obligate marine habitats or behavior, respectively. These categories will be discussed with reference to three main factors affecting their survival: salinity, temperature, and turbidity.

PHYSIOLOGICAL RANGES
Salinity

Fish have a problem in balancing the fluids outside their bodies with those inside. In general, freshwater fishes are constantly getting too much fresh water in their bodies from food, drinking water, and tissue transfer. On the opposite side, marine fishes get too little fresh water to maintain fluid balance due to the large input of salt in the drinking water and constant osmotic pressure to draw fresh water out of these tissues into the surrounding sea.[4]

The kidneys and gills are the two organs used to manage this balance. If a freshwater fish gets too much water, then the kidney is called upon to dump as much water as possible while retaining the circulating salts. Marine bony fish have to get rid of the excess salts largely through the gills and conserve the internal water through resorption.

Sea-run trout move from sea water to fresh water to spawn, while eels do just the opposite. Both have to be able to reverse their removal of water and salt according to the amount of salt in their environment. Sun fishes and cod remain in fresh water and sea water, respectively, for their whole life cycle. Salt content might range from nearly zero in freshwater to 35 parts per thousand (x103 ppm or 35,000 mg/l) in sea water. Obligate freshwater fish typically have an upper lethal level of seven parts per thousand (7,000 mg/l). Obligate marine species have a very narrow limit of salt tolerance.[5] Dromous (running/migrating) species are able to adapt to the new environments by osmotic regulation.

Temperature

The range of temperatures tolerated by fishes varies from species to species and the assorted habitats. Some fish have a very narrow range of tolerance at the cold, warm, or hot temperature parts of the heat scale. Others show a wide range of heat tolerance from freezing to hot waters (0-32° C). Developmental stages are frequently limited by narrow temperature requirements within the overall range of the adult.

Most species, including cold-water types, can tolerate at least brief exposures to 24°C and low temperatures approaching 2°C, as long as there are prolonged acclimation periods (several days to weeks). Preferred temperatures for the representative adult fish are as follows: Trout, 16-21°C; sunfish, 16-28°C; catfish, 21-29°C; eel, probably 16-28°C; codfish 12-16° C. [6,7]

Turbidity

Particulate matter that is in suspension in natural waters is measured photoelectrically as turbidity. It consists of erosional silt, organic particles, bacteria, and plankton. Such materials adversely affect fish by covering the substrate with a smothering layer that kills food organisms and spawning sites. In addition, the molar action of the silt damages gills and invertebrate respiratory structures. Fish combat such materials by secreting mucus that carries the particles away. Indirectly, turbidity screens out light and decreases the photic zone for photosynthesis. The range of turbidity might be described as: clear < 10 ppm (mg/l), turbid 10 to 250 ppm, and very turbid > 250 ppm. Wallen[8] found that many fish species survive turbidities of 100,000 ppm for one week or more.

SURVIVAL STRATEGY
Runoff to the Ocean

Heavy rainfall over the land would quickly fill the river basins with torrential flows. These in turn would empty out onto the encroaching coastline as a freshwater blanket. Odum[5] refers to situations similar to this as a "highly stratified or `salt-wedge' estuary." Such a massive freshwater outflow from the continents would join with the oceanic rainfall to form a halocline or strong density gradient, in which fish flushed out from the land aquatic systems could continue to survive in a freshwater environment. Stratification like this might even survive strong winds, if the freshwater depth was great enough to prevent internal current mixing. Thus, a situation might be envisioned where freshwater and marine fishes could survive the deluge in spite of being temporarily displaced.

Turbidity Flows

On the other hand, large turbid particles and enormous bedloads could move into the ocean as settleable particulate rain and ground-hugging slurries. Heavier particles would fall out in the slower-moving coastal waters, and the mudflows would sediment out over the ocean floor. Although there would be turbulence at the freshwater/saltwater interface, the particle insertion would probably occur without appreciable mixing. With the range of tolerance given above, many fishes might be able to survive extended exposure to high turbidity .

Serendipity at Mount St. Helens

The biotic recovery at Mount St. Helens after the May 18, 1980 eruption demonstrates rapid and widely ranging restoration. Obviously, the Flood would have been one or more orders of magnitude greater a catastrophe than that eruption. But such an event does help us to see ways of recovery.





SPIRIT LAKE





April 4, 1980

June 30, 1980



Alkalinity (mg/l)

0.01

150.5



Temperature (°C)

4.0

22.4



Turbidity (mg/l)

0.75

24.61



With regard to the three factors of interest (salinity&#8212;approximately alkalinity, in the sense of dissolved solutes&#8212;, temperature, and turbidity), significant changes were seen in the affected areas (data transformed to units used previously).[9,10]

Still, a little more than a month after the eruption, the lake most exposed to the catastrophic event, Spirit Lake, had tolerable alkalinity, ambient temperature, and low turbidity. This is not to deny that all the endemic fish were killed in the event and probably could not have survived if replanted in these waters on June 30, 1980, due to large organic oxygen demands from decaying tree debris and seeps of methane and sulfur dioxide. But within ten years, the lake appears to be able to support fish, as many other aquatic species are back and well established. If the lake were connected directly to the Toutle River, then salmonids probably would have made their reentry by this time.

Perhaps the most significant observation, though, in examining the post-eruption history, is that a variety of habitats within and adjacent to the blast zone survived the event with minimal impact on the continuity of the ecosystem. Meta Lake, within the blast zone for example, had an ice cover at the time of the searing blast, which protected the dormant ecosystem from experiencing much disruption from the heat, anoxia, and air-fall tephra. Fish and support systems picked up where they left off before the onset of the winter season.

Similar experiences were observed in Swift Reservoir, in spite of massive mud and debris flows into the lake by way of Muddy Creek (personal conversation with aquatic biologist on duty at that time). Fish were displaced into the adjacent unaffected watersheds or downstream into lower reservoirs. However, within two years, massive plankton blooms had occurred and ecosystem recovery was well underway with migrant recruits.

Such a confined catastrophe (500 square miles) enables one to project expectations from a major catastrophe, such as the Flood. First, in spite of the enormous magnitude of such events, there appear to be refuges for survival even in close proximity to the most damaging action. Second, recovery can be incredibly fast&#8212;from one month to ten years. Third, recruitment from minimally affected zones can occur with normal migratory behavior of organisms. Although some animal and plant populations or even species might be annihilated in such events, remnant individuals can reestablish new populations.

How Could Fish Survive the Genesis Flood?

 

[Youwerecreated]

Can someone on the creationist side advise why nearly all if not every radiometric dating method is wrong?

Assumptions and presuppositions are used.

Well, it seems illogical for these assumption and presuppositions are never correct in every attempt they use these methods.

Also, if the world is 6000 years old then how could gasoline, coal, and diamonds that take millions of years to form be around?

How can assumptions and presuppositions always be accurate ? besides there have been many examples produced to show the dating methods are unreliable.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Did anyone notice that the fundies' "quotes" are frequently 1950's vintage material from a Christian creationist website?

Chuckle.

Funny, coming from the tool who repeatedly borrows Dawkins question from The God Delusion of who designed the designer and then claims she doesn't know who Dawkins is.

My creepy stalker feels ignored.

I just think you are wishful thinking again.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Can someone on the creationist side advise why nearly all if not every radiometric dating method is wrong?

Assumptions and presuppositions are used.

Creationist will denigrate those methods of science which refute biblical tales and fables.

Hollie I am an honest person and have no reason to do as you claim.

 

[Youwerecreated]

New research may show that Neanderthals did not go extinct.
DNA derived from the Neanderthals has been found in many human populations around the globe.
http://wsws.org/en/articles/2011/12/nean-d27.html

Proof they were human.

Proof only that Christian fundamentalism is a serious illness.

You still don't get it,figures.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Can someone also advise how many species survived the global flood?

No way to answer this question.

Of course there is. Only Noah and his immediate family survived the flood tale.

The gawds provided incestuous relationships as the way to re-populate the earth.

Hollie in the bible it was the sons of noah who had wives that re-populated the earth.

 

[Hollie]

Assumptions and presuppositions are used.

Well, it seems illogical for these assumption and presuppositions are never correct in every attempt they use these methods.

Also, if the world is 6000 years old then how could gasoline, coal, and diamonds that take millions of years to form be around?

How can assumptions and presuppositions always be accurate ? besides there have been many examples produced to show the dating methods are unreliable.

Assumptions and presuppositions are not always accurate. However, as you are ignorant of the mechanisms used by reliable dating methods and have a preconceived bias negatively affecting your ability to offer relevant commentary, you're not at all reliable when it comes to separating fact from religious dogma.

 

[Hollie]

No way to answer this question.

Of course there is. Only Noah and his immediate family survived the flood tale.

The gawds provided incestuous relationships as the way to re-populate the earth.

Hollie in the bible it was the sons of noah who had wives that re-populated the earth.

In Moby Dick, Ahab was eaten by the whale. This was the same whale that swallowed Jonah, BTW.

 

[Hollie]

Proof they were human.

Proof only that Christian fundamentalism is a serious illness.

You still don't get it,figures.

You're still befuddled.

 

[Hollie]

Funny, coming from the tool who repeatedly borrows Dawkins question from The God Delusion of who designed the designer and then claims she doesn't know who Dawkins is.

My creepy stalker feels ignored.

I just think you are wishful thinking again.

It's curious that both you and my stalker have repeatedly threatened to leave but remain, only to spread your message of religious hate.

 

[Hollie]

Chapter 17 FOSSILS AND STRATA Part 5

Evolution Handbook 3

“evolution-facts.org” is another Christian creationist hate site. This particular site is maintained by Vance Ferrell.

Our pal Vance has some rather emphatic views on all non-christian cultists.

Vance Ferrell, evolution-facts.org

It becomes extremely dangerous when materialistic men are set in positions of power to dictate that which the masses will believe in regard to human morality. Hardened evolutionists are determined not to merely let men choose for themselves the type of morality they will follow. Evolution is foisted upon people, from kindergarten to the grave. Evolutionist zealots are dedicated to wiping out every religion but their own. Atheism and only atheism is their creed and their objective. Darwinism inherently teaches the most vicious set of moral principles. Declaring that man is but an animal, instruction is then given that the most successful animals are those that are the first to attack and destroy. The collected views men are taught determine their system of morals and their way of life.

These kinds of comments are valuable for a glimpse into the gaping maw of the true, twisted ideology of totalitarian christian cult values. Employing “evolution-facts.org” leaves us only to see exampled the net effect of a cult, promoting fear and hate.

“evolution-facts.org” is but one christian cult and its hate-filled diatribes demonstrate the most fear-promoting, intellect-killing ideology ever to part ways with man's formidable imagination.

 

[Hollie]

Assumptions and presuppositions are used.

Creationist will denigrate those methods of science which refute biblical tales and fables.

Hollie I am an honest person and have no reason to do as you claim.

You are not an honest person and have been exposed repeatedly as a liar.

 

[Hollie]

Flood Stories from Around the World

Flood Stories from Around the World

Anyone contemplating an alleged global flood would be wise to consider sources such as the ICR. They are a fundamentalist Christian cult which, contrary to their moniker, doesn’t do any actual research.

It’s also notable that biblical accounts to a global flood are really just variations on similar tales and fables that have been circulating for thousands of years.

The claim to fish surviving a global flood is obviously rhetorical. Like so many biblical tales and fables, the global flood (for which there is no evidence), requires that a miracle had to take place. Many miracles had to occur for the flood myth to have occurred. The context of the Genesis Flood is Genesis 1:1 and very many other Divine works (miracles), none of which survive actual investigation. So again, what’s the point?

 

[Big_D2]

Assumptions and presuppositions are used.

Well, it seems illogical for these assumption and presuppositions are never correct in every attempt they use these methods.

Also, if the world is 6000 years old then how could gasoline, coal, and diamonds that take millions of years to form be around?

How can assumptions and presuppositions always be accurate ? besides there have been many examples produced to show the dating methods are unreliable.

I'm not sure what you're referring to: sciencedaily .com/releases/2010/09/100915171534.htm]Radiometric dating still reliable (again), research shows[/url]

There's a reason this satisfies scientists. It went through the rigorous tests needed to win their approval.

Also, if the world is 6000 years old then how could gasoline, coal, and diamonds that take millions of years to form be around?

You should switch from a young earth to an old earth creationist like myself.