Definitive Proof that GOD Exists?

[hobelim]

Since when do I need to prove something has reasoning ability in order to create intelligently or exist as spiritual energy?

...Yes, without lifting a physical finger which spiritual entities don't have.

How can anything without reasoning ability create intelligently?

You missed the point. The ability to create intelligently requires a reasoning ability.

Well, because it resides in a different realm than physical nature, certainly!
Here again, we run into a problem with how you comprehend the terms of the argument and how those who believe in spiritual nature comprehend those same terms. The only concept of rationality you have, is physical, from the physical realm. The spiritual realm is simply not confined to physical rationale. Yep... it's a pretty far out thing to try and wrap your mind around, I agree... that's precisely why man developed religions. .

You are wrong. I understand what you consider to be spiritual nature nothing more than a capacity of the mind, like dreaming or imagination, that exists within the realm of conscious thought, which has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the physical realm.

I didn't say that the intelligent designer was a physical entity living on a cloud with angels and a harp. That's quite mad, in my opinion. I believe spiritual energy created the physical universe, because physical energy did not yet exist. I see far too much circumstance which had to work out is specific ways, to specific degrees, and in specific timing to even enable the simplest scientific explanations for origin of life. Even if all of life sprang forth from a single cell organism, it came from spiritual energy. The evidence for an intelligent designer is order to the universe. The WHY behind the HOW in science. .

Hey, I just pointed out that the ability to create intelligently requires a reasoning ability.
pay attention.

Now... "intelligent designer" means different things to different people. To you, it means an individual expressing creative imagination, rationalizing and planning through a process, as humans do in the physical universe. But the spiritual universe is quite different. It does not have to conform to rules of the physical universe, and it doesn't. You can chortle that this is "convenient" but it's just the truth. It's why this question can't ever be answered for you. The ability to comprehend spiritual nature doesn't exist in your mind, it's not there. At every turn of the investigation, you mistakenly apply physical science and physical limitation on spiritual energy and spiritual existence. This causes you to draw completely illogical conclusions, which serve to support your disbelief.

No, I just pointed out that the ability to create intelligently requires a reasoning ability and instead of agreeing you went on a trip to outer space to avoid the embarrassment of acknowledging that you are wrong.

Are you trying to make me laugh or feel sorry for you?

 

[Youwerecreated]

even your mockery sucks slapdick..
always you're wrong

Poor daws.

I skip over most of his shit now; waste of time.

I need to do the same.

 

[Hollie]

Now... "intelligent designer" means different things to different people. To you, it means an individual expressing creative imagination, rationalizing and planning through a process, as humans do in the physical universe. But the spiritual universe is quite different. It does not have to conform to rules of the physical universe, and it doesn't. You can chortle that this is "convenient" but it's just the truth. It's why this question can't ever be answered for you. The ability to comprehend spiritual nature doesn't exist in your mind, it's not there. At every turn of the investigation, you mistakenly apply physical science and physical limitation on spiritual energy and spiritual existence. This causes you to draw completely illogical conclusions, which serve to support your disbelief.

Ok, so wait. This is getting stranger by the minute. So you're claiming that there is a separate and distinct "spiritual universe"?

 

[Derideo_Te]

Jim, you come across as a normal reasonable person who understands that not everyone believes as you do. Furthermore yours truly is more than willing to defend your right to your beliefs.

On the other hand Boss is attempting to claim something that defies all logic, facts, reason and common sense. When challenged with logic, reason, facts and common sense he starts screaming that these challenges are purely motivated by a "hatred" for "religion". His irrational responses have resulted in him attracting attention that his OP probably doesn't deserve. In many respects he is his own worst enemy but that fact seems to escape him too. Boss is entitled to his own beliefs but not his own unsubstantiated "truthiness" and "factoids".

I've repeatedly shown where your explanations for humans spirituality defy science, nature and logic. Where your explanations for its persistence as our most defining attribute, defies Darwin's own theories. How you have absolutely NO science to support your argument that spiritual nature is non existent.

I have never tried to entitle myself to my own facts. That is what you and the disbelievers want to do. You want to claim that it has been somehow 'proven' that spiritual nature doesn't exist, and those who believe it does, are refusing to accept science. You won't show us any scientific evidence to support your claims, you just keep acting as if this is common knowledge you need not support, while challenging others to present science to refute your views. Furthermore, you illogically demand the evidence for a spiritual entity be solely physical evidence, which spiritual entities do not provide, since they are spiritual and not physical.

Contrary to your claims, I admitted in the first two paragraphs of the OP, that some people are incapable of acknowledging spiritual nature, and this question can never be answered for them. I do not demand that you believe the same as myself or agree with me, I go out of my way to point out that you don't, and won't ever. Still, you people go on for page after page, trying to argue a point that you can never make, and know that you'll never make, seeking an answer that you can never find, and know you will never find. When I point out why I think you do this irrational thing, you get angry... probably because I am right... and start attacking me for that as well.

I've been around message boards for years. I've pissed off many people to this degree, it's not new to me. Definitive Proof that GOD Exists? was my creation, and the title as well as the argument, is designed to provoke thought and challenge conventional wisdoms. I fully intended for you to become engaged in the conversation, intentionally provoked you, as a matter of fact. I knew that you, and other religion-haters, would not be able to resist such a title and argument, you'd have to entertain us with your thoughts. I admit, I had no idea it would be this popular.

Now, the thread has grown to 75 pages, and I suspect it will continue to grow, and although every refutation of the OP offered up, has been shown to defy nature, science, and logic, you have decided to 'win the argument' by claiming you won the argument long ago, and I am merely sticking around to be kicked about during your victory lap. There are no quotes posted by me, contradicted by you, so those aren't being proudly paraded around... something you normally do on such a victory lap. But that's okay, there are enough of your 'friends' here to slap you on the back and make you think this was pulled off.

I've seen this movie plenty of times.

So now Boss is admitting that he is incapable of learning from his past mistakes. Only a fool keeps on repeating the same mistake while expecting a different outcome each time.

 

[daws101]

.

cure 4 Atheism



cure 4 Atheism [Part 1/5] - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 2/5]. - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 3/5]. - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 4/5] - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [part 5/5].Yusuf Estes - YouTube

major waste of bandwidth....

 

[Boss]

How can anything without reasoning ability create intelligently?

Well, because it resides in a different realm than physical nature, certainly!
Here again, we run into a problem with how you comprehend the terms of the argument and how those who believe in spiritual nature comprehend those same terms. The only concept of rationality you have, is physical, from the physical realm. The spiritual realm is simply not confined to physical rationale. Yep... it's a pretty far out thing to try and wrap your mind around, I agree... that's precisely why man developed religions.

I didn't say that the intelligent designer was a physical entity living on a cloud with angels and a harp. That's quite mad, in my opinion. I believe spiritual energy created the physical universe, because physical energy did not yet exist. I see far too much circumstance which had to work out is specific ways, to specific degrees, and in specific timing to even enable the simplest scientific explanations for origin of life. Even if all of life sprang forth from a single cell organism, it came from spiritual energy. The evidence for an intelligent designer is order to the universe. The WHY behind the HOW in science.

Now... "intelligent designer" means different things to different people. To you, it means an individual expressing creative imagination, rationalizing and planning through a process, as humans do in the physical universe. But the spiritual universe is quite different. It does not have to conform to rules of the physical universe, and it doesn't. You can chortle that this is "convenient" but it's just the truth. It's why this question can't ever be answered for you. The ability to comprehend spiritual nature doesn't exist in your mind, it's not there. At every turn of the investigation, you mistakenly apply physical science and physical limitation on spiritual energy and spiritual existence. This causes you to draw completely illogical conclusions, which serve to support your disbelief.

Your promotion of religion under the guise of spirit worlds is no less a religion. Your appeals to spirit worlds carries with it most of the components of typical religious dogma. You have replaced a named gawd(s) with something you call "spiritual nature", yet this "spiritual nature" thing Is indistinguishable from the typical configurations of most deities.

Conveniently, you even configure your spirit worlds as absent any verifiable proofs, rational standards and physical existence, just as others have done in the formulation of their religions, ruled over by supernatural entities. In order to assess and access your spirit worlds, we must abandon any standard of rationality and reason. We must blindly accept your claims as true and inerrant, beyond any reasonable standard of proof.

Well, yeah, that is a bit difficult to wrap ones head around... because thinking humans can choose to reject such ridiculous "because I say so", nonsense.

First of all, what I have suggested is not a religion. You simply want to dismiss all spiritual belief as a religion, and I understand why. I didn't configure spiritual nature, it existed before I did, it existed before physical nature did. It doesn't exist 'because I say so.' It is indeed verifiable and provable, and I can even show you how, if you are willing to open your mind. It doesn't require abandoning rationality or reason at all, spirituality is a perfectly natural human behavioral state.

 

[Derideo_Te]

.

cure 4 Atheism



cure 4 Atheism [Part 1/5] - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 2/5]. - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 3/5]. - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 4/5] - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [part 5/5].Yusuf Estes - YouTube

major waste of bandwidth....

That was an understatement. No self respecting person would ever allow themselves to be talked down to in such a condescending manner. As for the content, there are kids in elementary schools who could poke holes in that nonsense.

 

[daws101]

.

cure 4 Atheism



cure 4 Atheism [Part 1/5] - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 2/5]. - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 3/5]. - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 4/5] - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [part 5/5].Yusuf Estes - YouTube

major waste of bandwidth....

That was an understatement. No self respecting person would ever allow themselves to be talked down to in such a condescending manner. As for the content, there are kids in elementary schools who could poke holes in that nonsense.

 

[Boss]

Since when do I need to prove something has reasoning ability in order to create intelligently or exist as spiritual energy?

...Yes, without lifting a physical finger which spiritual entities don't have.

How can anything without reasoning ability create intelligently?

You missed the point. The ability to create intelligently requires a reasoning ability.

Prove your statement true, or stop making it. We can say, from what we know of intelligent physical entities, they require reasoning to create intelligently. I have no problem with that statement, but that isn't what you said.

You are wrong. I understand what you consider to be spiritual nature nothing more than a capacity of the mind, like dreaming or imagination, that exists within the realm of conscious thought, which has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the physical realm.

Again, if you are going to make a declarative statement, you need to prove it. Your understanding of something, does not make you correct and others wrong. Although, this is getting to be common in this thread.

I didn't say that the intelligent designer was a physical entity living on a cloud with angels and a harp. That's quite mad, in my opinion. I believe spiritual energy created the physical universe, because physical energy did not yet exist. I see far too much circumstance which had to work out is specific ways, to specific degrees, and in specific timing to even enable the simplest scientific explanations for origin of life. Even if all of life sprang forth from a single cell organism, it came from spiritual energy. The evidence for an intelligent designer is order to the universe. The WHY behind the HOW in science. .

Hey, I just pointed out that the ability to create intelligently requires a reasoning ability.
pay attention.

Pay attention, you presented your OPINION and didn't back it up with anything at all. Until you can prove your opinion true, it is subject to whether or not I have faith in it. I don't.

Now... "intelligent designer" means different things to different people. To you, it means an individual expressing creative imagination, rationalizing and planning through a process, as humans do in the physical universe. But the spiritual universe is quite different. It does not have to conform to rules of the physical universe, and it doesn't. You can chortle that this is "convenient" but it's just the truth. It's why this question can't ever be answered for you. The ability to comprehend spiritual nature doesn't exist in your mind, it's not there. At every turn of the investigation, you mistakenly apply physical science and physical limitation on spiritual energy and spiritual existence. This causes you to draw completely illogical conclusions, which serve to support your disbelief.

No, I just pointed out that the ability to create intelligently requires a reasoning ability and instead of agreeing you went on a trip to outer space to avoid the embarrassment of acknowledging that you are wrong.

You didn't point anything out, you gave your opinion on something, and offered nothing at all to support your opinion, and now you are acting as if your opinion was established as a fact that can't be refuted.

Are you trying to make me laugh or feel sorry for you?

I'm trying to get you to understand that your opinions are not facts, but you are being rather hard headed about this. Seems you think, whenever you have bestowed your profound opinions, we are not to question them or ask for proof.

 

[Boss]

.

cure 4 Atheism



cure 4 Atheism [Part 1/5] - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 2/5]. - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 3/5]. - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [Part 4/5] - YouTube


cure 4 Atheism [part 5/5].Yusuf Estes - YouTube

major waste of bandwidth....

That was an understatement. No self respecting person would ever allow themselves to be talked down to in such a condescending manner. As for the content, there are kids in elementary schools who could poke holes in that nonsense.

But we notice, Dorito doesn't attempt to poke holes in anything, proving he is not as smart as a typical elementary school kid, by his own admission.

 

[Hollie]

Well, because it resides in a different realm than physical nature, certainly!
Here again, we run into a problem with how you comprehend the terms of the argument and how those who believe in spiritual nature comprehend those same terms. The only concept of rationality you have, is physical, from the physical realm. The spiritual realm is simply not confined to physical rationale. Yep... it's a pretty far out thing to try and wrap your mind around, I agree... that's precisely why man developed religions.

I didn't say that the intelligent designer was a physical entity living on a cloud with angels and a harp. That's quite mad, in my opinion. I believe spiritual energy created the physical universe, because physical energy did not yet exist. I see far too much circumstance which had to work out is specific ways, to specific degrees, and in specific timing to even enable the simplest scientific explanations for origin of life. Even if all of life sprang forth from a single cell organism, it came from spiritual energy. The evidence for an intelligent designer is order to the universe. The WHY behind the HOW in science.

Now... "intelligent designer" means different things to different people. To you, it means an individual expressing creative imagination, rationalizing and planning through a process, as humans do in the physical universe. But the spiritual universe is quite different. It does not have to conform to rules of the physical universe, and it doesn't. You can chortle that this is "convenient" but it's just the truth. It's why this question can't ever be answered for you. The ability to comprehend spiritual nature doesn't exist in your mind, it's not there. At every turn of the investigation, you mistakenly apply physical science and physical limitation on spiritual energy and spiritual existence. This causes you to draw completely illogical conclusions, which serve to support your disbelief.

Your promotion of religion under the guise of spirit worlds is no less a religion. Your appeals to spirit worlds carries with it most of the components of typical religious dogma. You have replaced a named gawd(s) with something you call "spiritual nature", yet this "spiritual nature" thing Is indistinguishable from the typical configurations of most deities.

Conveniently, you even configure your spirit worlds as absent any verifiable proofs, rational standards and physical existence, just as others have done in the formulation of their religions, ruled over by supernatural entities. In order to assess and access your spirit worlds, we must abandon any standard of rationality and reason. We must blindly accept your claims as true and inerrant, beyond any reasonable standard of proof.

Well, yeah, that is a bit difficult to wrap ones head around... because thinking humans can choose to reject such ridiculous "because I say so", nonsense.

First of all, what I have suggested is not a religion. You simply want to dismiss all spiritual belief as a religion, and I understand why. I didn't configure spiritual nature, it existed before I did, it existed before physical nature did. It doesn't exist 'because I say so.' It is indeed verifiable and provable, and I can even show you how, if you are willing to open your mind. It doesn't require abandoning rationality or reason at all, spirituality is a perfectly natural human behavioral state.

What you're requiring of me is precisely the requirement that religions require: that I "believe" you. According to you, I must 'open my mind", to accept your assertions. What dies that mean, to "open my mind"? This is why your claims are phony.

I don't need to "open my mind" to understand the natural world. I can experience the natural, rational world around me. If I need explanations for the effects of gravity or what causes a lunar eclipse, I can research peer reviewed science journals and get the consensus of those who research the phenomenon. There is no requirement to "open my mind" to science as there is for your spirit worlds and other such claims which are asserted but carry a requirement to "believe", absent reliable corroboration.

Save "belief" for Sunday school. In the natural, rational world, facts have a way trumping "belief".

 

[daws101]

major waste of bandwidth....

That was an understatement. No self respecting person would ever allow themselves to be talked down to in such a condescending manner. As for the content, there are kids in elementary schools who could poke holes in that nonsense.

But we notice, Dorito doesn't attempt to poke holes in anything, proving he is not as smart as a typical elementary school kid, by his own admission.

who's we?
hmmmmm. your "evidence" is subjective , so any hole poking would be also..

 

[daws101]

Your promotion of religion under the guise of spirit worlds is no less a religion. Your appeals to spirit worlds carries with it most of the components of typical religious dogma. You have replaced a named gawd(s) with something you call "spiritual nature", yet this "spiritual nature" thing Is indistinguishable from the typical configurations of most deities.

Conveniently, you even configure your spirit worlds as absent any verifiable proofs, rational standards and physical existence, just as others have done in the formulation of their religions, ruled over by supernatural entities. In order to assess and access your spirit worlds, we must abandon any standard of rationality and reason. We must blindly accept your claims as true and inerrant, beyond any reasonable standard of proof.

Well, yeah, that is a bit difficult to wrap ones head around... because thinking humans can choose to reject such ridiculous "because I say so", nonsense.

First of all, what I have suggested is not a religion. You simply want to dismiss all spiritual belief as a religion, and I understand why. I didn't configure spiritual nature, it existed before I did, it existed before physical nature did. It doesn't exist 'because I say so.' It is indeed verifiable and provable, and I can even show you how, if you are willing to open your mind. It doesn't require abandoning rationality or reason at all, spirituality is a perfectly natural human behavioral state.

What you're requiring of me is precisely the requirement that religions require: that I "believe" you. According to you, I must 'open my mind", to accept your assertions. What dies that mean, to "open my mind"? This is why your claims are phony.

I don't need to "open my mind" to understand the natural world. I can experience the natural, rational world around me. If I need explanations for the effects of gravity or what causes a lunar eclipse, I can research peer reviewed science journals and get the consensus of those who research the phenomenon. There is no requirement to "open my mind" to science as there is for your spirit worlds and other such claims which are asserted but carry a requirement to "believe", absent reliable corroboration.

Save "belief" for Sunday school. In the natural, rational world, facts have a way trumping "belief".

me thinks that "opening you mind is a badly thought out euphemism for disregarding objectivity or any analytically derived fact.
but that's just me.

 

[Boss]

More profound ignorance from the Boss. Needless to say you are incapable of substantiating either of those mindless allegations with hard scientific facts from reputable sources.

1. Matter cannot create matter.
2. Show anything in the universe you believe will never end.

1. Only believers are obsessed with the concept of "creation". The rest of us have moved beyond such infantile obsessions.

2. Rampant ignorance and blatant stupidity seems like a good candidate. Do you have even the vaguest clue what the law of conservation of mass means?

You can't logically explain creation without creation. Testable evidence shows, whenever there is a "big bang" things are disorganized and chaotic as a result, they don't find order and pattern. Testable evidence also shows, whenever there is a "big bang" there has to be an energy source responsible. Testable evidence shows that physical matter is unable to create physical matter. (laws of conservation of mass)

Do you exist? Seriously, answer that question! If we can conclude you do exist, then you must be the product of creation. You obviously haven't existed forever, and you won't exist indefinitely. The state of your matter changed from inorganic to organic, and will again change to inorganic. Spiritual nature is what causes inorganic matter to become organic.

You don't have to agree with this, you can continue to believe that physical mass created itself through an unexplained explosion, and this cataclysm resulted in harmonious order and predictable physics across the universe. That is more of a 'miracle' than any god ever conceived.

 

[daws101]

[ame=http://youtu.be/wHjsaEK4vnw]Keep Your Jesus Off My Penis - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Wake]

There are some things that raise a lot of questions. I'm neither religious, agnostic, or atheistic.... just indifferent and curious.

If you're religious, you have a LOT of philosophical things to contend with. How do you reckon the possible existence of other gods, when you've set your heart on a certain deity? How can you prove your god exists? How do you know you're truly on the path of salvation? The whole issue with religion is that you can't know. You have to have faith. If God intended people to have unrefutable evidence of his existence and mandates, well, there wouldn't be any need for faith. If God wants us to have faith, He wouldn't provide ground-breaking proof that He exists.

If you're atheistic, there's a lot of things you have to work with, too. Do you just not believe and continue life randomly and pointlessly on a rock in space? How do you explain the origins of life? If you are an atheist, do youbelieve in abiogenesis? If human came from ape-like things, and they came from scurrying things and so on and so forth backwards in time, what was before the first living thing? Can a living thing pop into existence? Can it come from a chemical reaction? It doesn't make sense. If life can't come from rocks and other materials... how'd it get here?

 

[Youwerecreated]

major waste of bandwidth....

That was an understatement. No self respecting person would ever allow themselves to be talked down to in such a condescending manner. As for the content, there are kids in elementary schools who could poke holes in that nonsense.

But we notice, Dorito doesn't attempt to poke holes in anything, proving he is not as smart as a typical elementary school kid, by his own admission.

Nor do the others yammering about it but that is typical.

 

[BreezeWood]

But I have made no argument for any specific kind of god. Matter doesn't create matter, spiritual energy creates matter from elements we find across the universe. There is no special reason such a force would require creation itself. This is a strawman argument, generally thrown out by disbelievers. You see... you are now arguing that the physically non-existent spiritually entity can't be real, or it would have to at some point, been physically created. Do you see the flaw here? When we speak of something being created, we mean a physical creation of something, and spiritual energy doesn't physically exist. It doesn't require physical creation, it is just there and always has been. Even before the physical universe.

Boss: But I have made no argument for any specific kind of god - spiritual energy creates matter from elements we find across the universe - and spiritual energy doesn't physically exist. It doesn't require physical creation, it is just there and always has been. Even before the physical universe.


"spiritual energy creates matter from elements we find across the universe"


really, without lifting a finger

oh, and is there any reasoning behind what is created, are you speaking of life forms as well.

Since when do I need to prove something has reasoning ability in order to create intelligently or exist as spiritual energy?

...Yes, without lifting a physical finger which spiritual entities don't have.

Now to the "definitive proof" part. Since we have now determined that Spiritual evidence is what is needed to prove God's existence, we take you back 70,000 years or so, to the ancient people of Lake Mungo, one of the oldest human civilizations ever discovered. There, they found evidence of ritual burial using red ochre in ceremony. This is important because it signifies presence of spirituality. We can trace this human connection with spirituality all through mankind's history to present day religions. Mankind has always been spiritually connected to something greater than self. Since our very origins.

... greater than self.

Boss: Since when do I need to prove something has reasoning ability in order to create intelligently or exist as spiritual energy?

(Boss) - - - > greater than self - Since when do I need to prove something has reasoning ability ...


ok Boss, then maybe the people of Lake Mungo were Neanderthals ....

 

[Boss]

Your promotion of religion under the guise of spirit worlds is no less a religion. Your appeals to spirit worlds carries with it most of the components of typical religious dogma. You have replaced a named gawd(s) with something you call "spiritual nature", yet this "spiritual nature" thing Is indistinguishable from the typical configurations of most deities.

Conveniently, you even configure your spirit worlds as absent any verifiable proofs, rational standards and physical existence, just as others have done in the formulation of their religions, ruled over by supernatural entities. In order to assess and access your spirit worlds, we must abandon any standard of rationality and reason. We must blindly accept your claims as true and inerrant, beyond any reasonable standard of proof.

Well, yeah, that is a bit difficult to wrap ones head around... because thinking humans can choose to reject such ridiculous "because I say so", nonsense.

First of all, what I have suggested is not a religion. You simply want to dismiss all spiritual belief as a religion, and I understand why. I didn't configure spiritual nature, it existed before I did, it existed before physical nature did. It doesn't exist 'because I say so.' It is indeed verifiable and provable, and I can even show you how, if you are willing to open your mind. It doesn't require abandoning rationality or reason at all, spirituality is a perfectly natural human behavioral state.

What you're requiring of me is precisely the requirement that religions require: that I "believe" you. According to you, I must 'open my mind", to accept your assertions. What dies that mean, to "open my mind"? This is why your claims are phony.

I don't need to "open my mind" to understand the natural world. I can experience the natural, rational world around me. If I need explanations for the effects of gravity or what causes a lunar eclipse, I can research peer reviewed science journals and get the consensus of those who research the phenomenon. There is no requirement to "open my mind" to science as there is for your spirit worlds and other such claims which are asserted but carry a requirement to "believe", absent reliable corroboration.

Save "belief" for Sunday school. In the natural, rational world, facts have a way trumping "belief".

I didn't require you to believe me. However, you must have faith and belief in anything, including science, in order to accept it and believe in it. I posed the question earlier: Do you believe gravity will behave on Earth tomorrow, as it behaves on Earth today? Most will say, yes! This is because the evidence is strong, gravity has behaved in a predictable way up until today, therefore, it is rational to presume it will behave the same tomorrow... but we can't ever absolutely "prove" it will. We have faith it will.

Science is nothing more than theory of probability and predictability. Earlier, I presented the question asked by Theoretical Physicist, Dr. Michio Kaku, to his new students; Calculate the possibility that your body will disintegrate and re-materialize on the other side of a brick wall. Now, you are a smart person who puts all you faith and hope in science and the scientific method... do you have a calculation? Believe it or not, there is an actual calculation, and there is this possibility. Kaku says you would have to calculate longer than the universe has existed, but the possibility does indeed exist and is calculable.

What you and others continue to do, is dismiss spiritual nature on the grounds that it doesn't seem to conform to physical nature, or limits/requirements on physical nature. The flaw is simple, spiritual nature is not physical nature, it is entirely different. It's kind of like saying water can't possibly contain oxygen because we obviously can't breathe it. You are applying a criteria to oxygen that it doesn't have to meet to exist.

You can have all the understanding in the world, of science and physical nature... your science can never explain the WHY, just the HOW part. I stated in the OP, that certain things we are aware of, don't really have a "physical" presence we can put our finger on... like "talent." We can certainly measure brain wave activity and see that the brain is functioning or in thought, and we can detect chemical reactions happening and neurons firing, etc. But what made Mozart's neurons fire differently? Chance? I know through science, how friction causes atoms to become electrically charged, producing electricity... but can you explain why that happens? Of course not, because all science breaks down to basic physical laws and principles we accept as part of reality in a physical universe. Did all of this assimilation of order just happen by randomness and chance?

Now I personally dig science, I think it's wonderful and great, and probably the best thing that has ever come from human spiritual understanding. It helps us to see (sometimes) how the miracles of spiritual nature work. But this constant using it to try and defy spiritual nature, is laughable to me. It's as if you have discovered a working computer on the beach... and you've chosen to believe it exists because of random chances which all fell into place and created the computer there on the beach. Others suggest it was intelligently designed, but you demand evidence and proof. As you dig into the guts, you find a CPU... Ah-ha! You see... there is the "answer" the CPU surely created the computer through evolution! No intelligent designer needed! Yeah, because... the silicone is natural and available in nature... and heavy metals... and they just happened to wash up on the beach in the right combo, along with a bolt of lightning which electrically charged the CPU and brought it to life, and from there... natural selection, baby!

I thought the Muslim guy in the video posted earlier, made an interesting observation about the universe. Isn't it curious, we find atoms, the smallest thing in the universe we can see... and they are orbited by little round protons, neutrons, and electrons. Then we can go to the most powerful telescopes and as far out into the universe as we can look, we see small suns, orbited by planets and planets orbited by moons... a pattern. Big Bangs do not create patterns, they create chaos. This is a testable hypothesis. So what can be the physical science explanation for pattern, order, logic, where we should find chaos?

Spiritual energy.

 

[Boss]

Boss: But I have made no argument for any specific kind of god - spiritual energy creates matter from elements we find across the universe - and spiritual energy doesn't physically exist. It doesn't require physical creation, it is just there and always has been. Even before the physical universe.


"spiritual energy creates matter from elements we find across the universe"


really, without lifting a finger

oh, and is there any reasoning behind what is created, are you speaking of life forms as well.

Since when do I need to prove something has reasoning ability in order to create intelligently or exist as spiritual energy?

...Yes, without lifting a physical finger which spiritual entities don't have.

Now to the "definitive proof" part. Since we have now determined that Spiritual evidence is what is needed to prove God's existence, we take you back 70,000 years or so, to the ancient people of Lake Mungo, one of the oldest human civilizations ever discovered. There, they found evidence of ritual burial using red ochre in ceremony. This is important because it signifies presence of spirituality. We can trace this human connection with spirituality all through mankind's history to present day religions. Mankind has always been spiritually connected to something greater than self. Since our very origins.

... greater than self.

Boss: Since when do I need to prove something has reasoning ability in order to create intelligently or exist as spiritual energy?

(Boss) - - - > greater than self - Since when do I need to prove something has reasoning ability ...


ok Boss, then maybe the people of Lake Mungo were Neanderthals ....

Look... my remark was purely a philosophical comment. I did not mean to indicate that I thought spiritual nature was non-reasoning or "irrational" but that spiritual energy need not conform. What we humans have decided to call "rationality" or "reasoning" and "reckoning" are attributes assigned to the process of human thought. Why the hell would a spiritual entity need or require human attributes? The fact that we can't conceive how intelligence can exist without reasoning, doesn't mean that it doesn't. Perhaps this is yet another area where our semantics are confused, depending on your understanding of spiritual nature, or lack thereof? We know what "intelligence" is, as it relates to human beings in a physical universe. That's all we know, because we are incapable of relating to a realm we aren't physically aware of, and certainly if we aren't willing to open our minds to.

I find this is the biggest error made by the disbelievers. They constantly want to apply physical science, laws of physics and physical nature, and preconceptions of thought and words pertaining to physical reality, to the spiritual nature. I think that we can ALL agree, spiritual nature doesn't physically exist. Why would the rules and concepts behind physical nature, have anything at all to do with spiritual nature? ...Other than, to prove that spiritual nature is intelligent in the designing of physical nature itself?