Did Jesus die for our sins, or his own?

[Avatar4321]

Kind of hard to die for your sins if you have none

 

[BluePhantom]

Kind of hard to die for your sins if you have none

Consider who you are talking to Avatar. Look I really don't know if Jesus was sinless or not. I wasn't alive then and I didn't walk beside Him to be able to see for myself. We are told that He was and maybe He really was. I suppose in some ways you could argue that Jesus was God's way of experiencing the human dilemma so if He didn't sin then God would not have received the experience, through Jesus, that He was aiming for. That's an interesting discussion right there.

But honestly it's really not important. It's what He represents that is important. It is the hope He gives us and the inspiration to better our lives and our way of dealing with those around us that is important. I will agree with atheists on one very significant thing...the point of Jesus was not to avoid Hell (which as you know I don't think exists). That is a fear based, negative outlook. The point of Jesus was to find communion with God, not out of fear, not out of obligation, but out of a true desire to do so.

I do not fear Hell and eternal torment as my motivation for seeking God. I don't think Hell exists. I don't think there are ANY consequences for rejecting God. I think it's bullshit that was created to terrify people into behaving the way the Church wanted them to behave and I can back that up with a knowledge of history. I choose the path of God because it is within my true character. I care about people, even total strangers. It's just who I am.

I don't do it for spiritual self-preservation or because I think God will be angry if I don't. It's just me. I would like to think it pleases God but that is not my motivation. I do not feel obligated to God. I simply want to act in a way that I think will please God, and trust me...I don't always succeed. LOL. My behavior is far more often wrong than it is right. Ask TrinityPower ...she will tell you. LOL. .

Does that make any sense at all?

 

[September]

I worship YHWH as a God of Creation and a God of Destruction. There is a powerful balance there...

I understand Jesus as something completely different. Jesus is not a God of Creation or a God of Destruction. Jesus represents forgiveness, unconditional love, mercy, salvation, redemption, humility, etc, and is a powerful force to embrace when people Will to invoke those kinds of attributes into themselves.

Did Jesus die for our sins, or his own? That is a foolish question to ask because none of us were there to witness what happened or if he even existed. What should instead be done is to learn from the legend of Jesus and take what you Will from it, whatever will help you in your spiritual/ religious journey.

​

 

[amrchaos]

I am still trying to figure the theoretical arguments that made Jesus Humanities 'spank boy'?

It is not in the messiah prophecies. And the Gospel only claim that is why Jesus died. But it does not explain how it came to be that Jesus can take up others punishment for himself.

Try this in any court. You commit a crime, but someone else offers to do the time. Our system of justice will fall apart if that was normal--innocent people in jail, criminals roam free. There is little consistency to justice.

 

[BluePhantom]

I am still trying to figure the theoretical arguments that made Jesus Humanities 'spank boy'?

It is not in the messiah prophecies. And the Gospel only claim that is why Jesus died. But it does not explain how it came to be that Jesus can take up others punishment for himself.

Try this in any court. You commit a crime, but someone else offers to do the time. Our system of justice will fall apart if that was normal--innocent people in jail, criminals roam free. There is little consistency to justice.

Ok let me lay it out for you.

Prior to Jesus, in order for sins to be forgiven one had to go to the Temple and bring an animal sacrifice. Often it was a lamb. The animal would be sacrificed to God and the priests would pray on your behalf to have your sins forgiven. That's just the way it worked. This happened very frequently on Passover and this is why we get the story of Jesus flipping out in the Temple. The Temple was filled with money changers and people selling sacrificial animals for ridiculous prices.

Jesus was killed either on the day of Passover or on the day of preparation depending upon which gospel you read. Jesus became the sacrificial animal for mankind. That is why you often hear Him referred to as the "Lamb of God". He was the sacrificial animal God offered on behalf of mankind. Thus all sins are forgiven and we no longer must go through the priests or the Temple to have access to God provided we accept they payment Jesus made on our behalf. That's the Pauline doctrine of justification through faith, or "grace".

Make sense now?

 

[HaShev]

The convoluted logic of Jeremiah...Jesus is gd...So gd said to himself I am going to send you/ myself to earth to sacrifice yourself for the humans while I rule from the heavens...Dont worry after you die you will come back to me and become me....Yada Yada Yada....Makes complete sense to me...Rolling my eyes.. Only the trulty delusional can figure that even though gd stated he was not a man and we are told there is no vicarious attonement in eze 18 and other places...Yup Lui ci fer still managed to fool one third of the world ....Interesting to say the least...I wonder if it was a "test" and one third of the grade failed and will have to be held back in remedial school and not partake in going to the next level..Too bad because the only thing they did was believe instead of doing their homework and studying the scriptures to come to the proper understandings..But hey thats what you get by watering down the curriculum by giving them something new (testament) to read when the old(testament) texts were better for them to say the least...

Ironically that takes us back to Jeremiah's own what would the devil do discussion. Like I replied in that post, through the fallacious resurrection story they lead people to worship an image of a failed prophet, made people think there was life and hope in death, thus perverted and twisted life and death causing mankind to covet & worship death.

 

[HaShev]

I am still trying to figure the theoretical arguments that made Jesus Humanities 'spank boy'?

It is not in the messiah prophecies. And the Gospel only claim that is why Jesus died. But it does not explain how it came to be that Jesus can take up others punishment for himself.

Try this in any court. You commit a crime, but someone else offers to do the time. Our system of justice will fall apart if that was normal--innocent people in jail, criminals roam free. There is little consistency to justice.

Because even in their own iconograph it's lucifer's deception to hold down the Judgement balance scales of justice and weight of your deeds to fool people into thinking you can get away with anything as long as you stroke satan's (adversary's) ego (need to be worshiped).
Lucifer (the fallen false prophet) weighs himself more important then your deeds and being.
Islam makes this same mistake weighing their prophet more then their acts thus creating destruction, division, and chaos over affiliation pride and obsorbed ego from idolizing an iconic figure.
=deadly form of idolization.

 

[HaShev]

Kind of hard to die for your sins if you have none

Then by your own standatd Jesus was Lucifer fulfilling son of perdition in Ezekiel 28:14-15 whereby the only prophet ever deemed perfect can be the only fulfilled son of 'perdition' (to fall to the pit) and indeed Jesus did fall to the pit (acts 2:27,1Peter3:19)
and did admit he was the fallen one -rev 22:16 morning star is the symbolism of the fallen one because the arc of venus falls is called the morning star. Plus it's a claim to be the nemesis of the Evening star (rising arc-symbol for Michael who rises Dan 12:1-4).

 

[onefour1]

Kind of hard to die for your sins if you have none

Consider who you are talking to Avatar. Look I really don't know if Jesus was sinless or not. I wasn't alive then and I didn't walk beside Him to be able to see for myself. We are told that He was and maybe He really was. I suppose in some ways you could argue that Jesus was God's way of experiencing the human dilemma so if He didn't sin then God would not have received the experience, through Jesus, that He was aiming for. That's an interesting discussion right there.

But honestly it's really not important. It's what He represents that is important. It is the hope He gives us and the inspiration to better our lives and our way of dealing with those around us that is important. I will agree with atheists on one very significant thing...the point of Jesus was not to avoid Hell (which as you know I don't think exists). That is a fear based, negative outlook. The point of Jesus was to find communion with God, not out of fear, not out of obligation, but out of a true desire to do so.

I do not fear Hell and eternal torment as my motivation for seeking God. I don't think Hell exists. I don't think there are ANY consequences for rejecting God. I think it's bullshit that was created to terrify people into behaving the way the Church wanted them to behave and I can back that up with a knowledge of history. I choose the path of God because it is within my true character. I care about people, even total strangers. It's just who I am.

I don't do it for spiritual self-preservation or because I think God will be angry if I don't. It's just me. I would like to think it pleases God but that is not my motivation. I do not feel obligated to God. I simply want to act in a way that I think will please God, and trust me...I don't always succeed. LOL. My behavior is far more often wrong than it is right. Ask TrinityPower ...she will tell you. LOL. .

Does that make any sense at all?

It was absolutely critical that Jesus was a sinless sacrifice. For this reason were they asked to offer a lamb without blemish as a sacrifice.

Numbers 6:14
14 And he shall offer his offering unto the Lord, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,

Ezekiel 46:4
4 And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the Lord in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.

Exodus 12:5
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:

It was a type of what was to come.

Moses 5:6-7
6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.
7 And then the angel spake, saying: This thing is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten of the Father, which is full of grace and truth.

Please read this quote:

Out of our own spiritual lack, our own darkness, there may be profund misgivings about the significance of Jesus' example and His relationship to us.

We may say for example, "He was God from the beginning. H was not really akin to us." The truth is He lived, as we lived, in the pre-existent presence of the Father. He offered Himself as the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world," and assisted in the organization of the earth. In these senses He was the greatest of all and was properly called God. But mortality was for Him, as for us, a genuine second estate, a growth process, And in it

He received not of the fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace until He received a fullness. (Doctrine and Covenants 93:13)

We say, "But surely He was not subject to the conditions we face." The truth is that though by His Divine inheritance He had power over death, He was tempted in "all points" as we are, yet without sin, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations every kind. He did not "ascend up on high" until He had

descended below all things that He might be in and through all things the light of truth. (Doctrine and Covenants 88:16)

Behold I am the light; I have set an example for you. (3 Nephi 18:16)

What manner of men ought ye to be. Behold, verily I say unto you, even as I am. (3 Nephi 27:27)

We say, "But because He did not violate the law of God as we do, He does not know the burden of guilt and alienation." The truth is because of His sensitive, uncompromising submission to the Father's will, He was the only one of the Father's family who did not transgress, who in no sense deserved the throes of sin and the withdrawal of the Spirit. Yet through His life, climaxed by those incomprehensible hours in ta Garden beyond the brook Cedron, He suffered "according to the flesh" (Alma 7) the pains and afflictions of all forms of human evil doing. He participated, voluntarily, in the actual conditions that follow in the wake of deliberate transgression. He experienced the cumulative impact of our vicious thoughts, motive, and acts.

We say, "But it was easier for Him because of His Divine Sonship." The truth is it was infinitely harder. He endured " even more than man can suffer except it be unto death," (Mosiah 3:7) how exquisite and hard to bear we know not, which caused Him:

to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore and to suffer both body and spirit. And would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink. Nevertheless, glory be to the Father , and I partook, and finished my preparation unto the children of men. (Doctrine and Covenants 19:13, 19)

We say, "But He was never left as we are unto Himself." The truth is few can comprehend His cry on the cross, "My God, My God, why has Thou forsaken me?" Who can fathom His reiterated statement in modern times,

I have trodden the winepress alone, even the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. (Doctrine and Covenants 88:106)

We say, "But what He did twenty centuries ago cannot affect me now." The truth is the Christ who was, is the Christ who is. Out of His life came a full knowledge of righteousness and a full knowledge of the effects of sin. This means that no human encounter, no tragic loss, no spiritual failure is beyond the pale of His present knowledge and compassion gained,

according to the flesh - that He might succor His people according to their infirmities. (Alma 7.)

No act in all history has united intelligence, virtue and mercy in so complete an expression of love, a love which, even dimly glimpsed, will "draw all men unto him;" a love which underlies His present living roles as Mediator, Revelator, Savior, Redeemer, and Advocate with the Father.

We say, "But His glorious triumph has no bearing on my own." The truth is that exalted now on high, Jesus Christ is He by whom "life, light, Spirit, and power" are shed forth from the presence of and by the will of God. (Doctrine and Covenants 50:27.) Through Jesus Christ, we may come unto the Father. The pattern ordained is a pattern which begins when the light of Christ is given to every man who enters the world. It leads, if it is honored, into the first principles and ordinances. It includes sublime blessings: knowledge, glory and communion, love, joy and peace, blessings even of personal visitation, which transcend the highest aspirations of martyr or mystic, and of enlightened souls in every age.

But beyond these we are promised,

If you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fullness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father: therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace. (Doctrine and Covenants 93:20)

Moved, as few who have tasted of His Spirit and love fail to be, with "a broken heart and contrite spirit" we may walk the path whereby to become, as President David O. McKay has repeatedly testified with Peter, "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) As He was begotten of God the Father both in spirit and body, so by being begotten of Jesus Christ through His laws and ordinances, we may be transformed into a like condition of complete fulfillment, sons of God in the fullest sense, like Him.

Wherefore, all things are theirs whether life or death, or things present or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's and Christ is God's. And they shall overcome all things. (Doctrine and Covenants 76:59, 60.)

Whatever else the "pre-eminence of Jesus Christ" means (and it means much, much more) this is the heart of it. Today, in testimonies of living witnesses and the radiance of lives endowed with His power, in the spirit and operations of His Priesthood, and in the covenants and ordinances of His holy temples, this drama enacted in the land of Palestine, in conveyed to our souls. As His sufferings and death brought man nearer to God and each other, so individually, as we seek to comprehend Him, He brings us ever nearer the realization of our spiritual destiny, that the light in us may "grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day." (Doctrine and Covenants 50:24) No hour of life need be so despairing or so exalting as to blot out His voice:

Listen to him who is your advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him -
Saying, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of Thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified.
Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life. (Doctrine and Covenants 45:4)

--Christ and the Inner Life by Truman Madsen

It was absolutely essential that Christ be a sinless sacrifice. If not, then the justice for his unjust suffering would not have come about and He would not have been able to become our advocate with the Father. Our sins would not be washed away in his blood if he had deserved his punishments.

 

[tyroneweaver]

I don't get the whole "Jesus died for our sins" thing. If I knew I was the son of God, and was going to rule heaven and Earth for all eternity once I died, and that it would save all of humanity from eternal damnation, I'd go get crucified right now!

The problem is OS is to satisfy the ends of justice, the sacrifice had to be perfect. The sacrifice didn't start at the cross, it started in Gethsemane with the sweating of great drops of blood.

 

[tyroneweaver]

The fallen false prophet managed to get them to break all 10 commandments.
But this topic was warned about in Ezekiel 28:14-15 regarding the fallen son of perdition who would be deemed
Christ (anointed) Nazarene (cherub=guardian) seen as an image of a man deemed perfect until they were revealed all the inquities in that fabricated image.

I think EZE was scolding to the Hebrew of his day, their sinful, idolatrous ways, worst than Sodom.

Your reply had nothing to do with Ezekiel 28, which is why you had no reference sources.
You inadvertantly called your priests and preachers wrong for using Ezekiel 28 to be about Lucifer.
Tarsus was at friendly terms at that time leading to Ezekiel chapter 28 so it was not occuring in their day.
The term anointed Cherub fits only The first of only 2Guardian messiahs. Jesus being the only prophet coming as the first messiah called perfect means only Jesus can be Lucifer of Ezekiel 28.
When you disagree you end up giving up your own standard and logic used in the fallacious placement of Jesus into OT verses as claimed fulfilled Messiah.
This is called checkmate, your claims of messiah are destroyed by your own terms which ironically make him Lucifer...either move you lose your luciferous king.=checkmate!
You HELPED prove Jesus is Lucifer.

Yes , well I do not believe Jesus was God , ok. Eze was talking to you Hebrews, how sinful, worst than Sodom. So apparently you didn't get the message.

So you don't believe Jesus was Jehovah
or you don't believe Jesus was Elohim. which????

 

[Penelope]

The fallen false prophet managed to get them to break all 10 commandments.
But this topic was warned about in Ezekiel 28:14-15 regarding the fallen son of perdition who would be deemed
Christ (anointed) Nazarene (cherub=guardian) seen as an image of a man deemed perfect until they were revealed all the inquities in that fabricated image.

I think EZE was scolding to the Hebrew of his day, their sinful, idolatrous ways, worst than Sodom.

Your reply had nothing to do with Ezekiel 28, which is why you had no reference sources.
You inadvertantly called your priests and preachers wrong for using Ezekiel 28 to be about Lucifer.
Tarsus was at friendly terms at that time leading to Ezekiel chapter 28 so it was not occuring in their day.
The term anointed Cherub fits only The first of only 2Guardian messiahs. Jesus being the only prophet coming as the first messiah called perfect means only Jesus can be Lucifer of Ezekiel 28.
When you disagree you end up giving up your own standard and logic used in the fallacious placement of Jesus into OT verses as claimed fulfilled Messiah.
This is called checkmate, your claims of messiah are destroyed by your own terms which ironically make him Lucifer...either move you lose your luciferous king.=checkmate!
You HELPED prove Jesus is Lucifer.

Yes , well I do not believe Jesus was God , ok. Eze was talking to you Hebrews, how sinful, worst than Sodom. So apparently you didn't get the message.

So you don't believe Jesus was Jehovah
or you don't believe Jesus was Elohim. which????

Both. Yahweh was a tribal god, and Jesus, was the son of God according to the scriptures. As a RC we never worshipped Jesus as God.

 

[IsaacNewton]

Warning believers, this won't sit well with you. Trust me, watch at your own risk.

 

[TheOldSchool]

I don't get the whole "Jesus died for our sins" thing. If I knew I was the son of God, and was going to rule heaven and Earth for all eternity once I died, and that it would save all of humanity from eternal damnation, I'd go get crucified right now!

The problem is OS is to satisfy the ends of justice, the sacrifice had to be perfect. The sacrifice didn't start at the cross, it started in Gethsemane with the sweating of great drops of blood.

Oh well that clears everything up...

 

[tyroneweaver]

I don't get the whole "Jesus died for our sins" thing. If I knew I was the son of God, and was going to rule heaven and Earth for all eternity once I died, and that it would save all of humanity from eternal damnation, I'd go get crucified right now!

The problem is OS is to satisfy the ends of justice, the sacrifice had to be perfect. The sacrifice didn't start at the cross, it started in Gethsemane with the sweating of great drops of blood.

Oh well that clears everything up...

Well, let me explain it this way
The Creation
The Fall of Adam
The Atonement of Jesus Christ

These are 3 verities as to why God created you and this planet. All of them were essential and part of the plan

 

[tyroneweaver]

The fallen false prophet managed to get them to break all 10 commandments.
But this topic was warned about in Ezekiel 28:14-15 regarding the fallen son of perdition who would be deemed
Christ (anointed) Nazarene (cherub=guardian) seen as an image of a man deemed perfect until they were revealed all the inquities in that fabricated image.

I think EZE was scolding to the Hebrew of his day, their sinful, idolatrous ways, worst than Sodom.

Your reply had nothing to do with Ezekiel 28, which is why you had no reference sources.
You inadvertantly called your priests and preachers wrong for using Ezekiel 28 to be about Lucifer.
Tarsus was at friendly terms at that time leading to Ezekiel chapter 28 so it was not occuring in their day.
The term anointed Cherub fits only The first of only 2Guardian messiahs. Jesus being the only prophet coming as the first messiah called perfect means only Jesus can be Lucifer of Ezekiel 28.
When you disagree you end up giving up your own standard and logic used in the fallacious placement of Jesus into OT verses as claimed fulfilled Messiah.
This is called checkmate, your claims of messiah are destroyed by your own terms which ironically make him Lucifer...either move you lose your luciferous king.=checkmate!
You HELPED prove Jesus is Lucifer.

Yes , well I do not believe Jesus was God , ok. Eze was talking to you Hebrews, how sinful, worst than Sodom. So apparently you didn't get the message.

So you don't believe Jesus was Jehovah
or you don't believe Jesus was Elohim. which????

Both. Yahweh was a tribal god, and Jesus, was the son of God according to the scriptures. As a RC we never worshipped Jesus as God.

The scriptures are pretty replete with Jesus is Jehovah. Jesus Himself declarded, "before Abraham was, I am. Jesus is not God in the sense that He is not the Father, but he is God the Son.
When Jesus hung on the cross He called HIs Father, Eloi , or Elohim.

 

[Mudda]

I think EZE was scolding to the Hebrew of his day, their sinful, idolatrous ways, worst than Sodom.

Your reply had nothing to do with Ezekiel 28, which is why you had no reference sources.
You inadvertantly called your priests and preachers wrong for using Ezekiel 28 to be about Lucifer.
Tarsus was at friendly terms at that time leading to Ezekiel chapter 28 so it was not occuring in their day.
The term anointed Cherub fits only The first of only 2Guardian messiahs. Jesus being the only prophet coming as the first messiah called perfect means only Jesus can be Lucifer of Ezekiel 28.
When you disagree you end up giving up your own standard and logic used in the fallacious placement of Jesus into OT verses as claimed fulfilled Messiah.
This is called checkmate, your claims of messiah are destroyed by your own terms which ironically make him Lucifer...either move you lose your luciferous king.=checkmate!
You HELPED prove Jesus is Lucifer.

Yes , well I do not believe Jesus was God , ok. Eze was talking to you Hebrews, how sinful, worst than Sodom. So apparently you didn't get the message.

So you don't believe Jesus was Jehovah
or you don't believe Jesus was Elohim. which????

Both. Yahweh was a tribal god, and Jesus, was the son of God according to the scriptures. As a RC we never worshipped Jesus as God.

The scriptures are pretty replete with Jesus is Jehovah. Jesus Himself declarded, "before Abraham was, I am. Jesus is not God in the sense that He is not the Father, but he is God the Son.
When Jesus hung on the cross He called HIs Father, Eloi , or Elohim.

It's hearsay that Jesus declared anything, you really shouldn't be so naive.

 

[tyroneweaver]

Your reply had nothing to do with Ezekiel 28, which is why you had no reference sources.
You inadvertantly called your priests and preachers wrong for using Ezekiel 28 to be about Lucifer.
Tarsus was at friendly terms at that time leading to Ezekiel chapter 28 so it was not occuring in their day.
The term anointed Cherub fits only The first of only 2Guardian messiahs. Jesus being the only prophet coming as the first messiah called perfect means only Jesus can be Lucifer of Ezekiel 28.
When you disagree you end up giving up your own standard and logic used in the fallacious placement of Jesus into OT verses as claimed fulfilled Messiah.
This is called checkmate, your claims of messiah are destroyed by your own terms which ironically make him Lucifer...either move you lose your luciferous king.=checkmate!
You HELPED prove Jesus is Lucifer.

Yes , well I do not believe Jesus was God , ok. Eze was talking to you Hebrews, how sinful, worst than Sodom. So apparently you didn't get the message.

So you don't believe Jesus was Jehovah
or you don't believe Jesus was Elohim. which????

Both. Yahweh was a tribal god, and Jesus, was the son of God according to the scriptures. As a RC we never worshipped Jesus as God.

The scriptures are pretty replete with Jesus is Jehovah. Jesus Himself declarded, "before Abraham was, I am. Jesus is not God in the sense that He is not the Father, but he is God the Son.
When Jesus hung on the cross He called HIs Father, Eloi , or Elohim.

It's hearsay that Jesus declared anything, you really shouldn't be so naive.

How convenient

 

[Mudda]

Yes , well I do not believe Jesus was God , ok. Eze was talking to you Hebrews, how sinful, worst than Sodom. So apparently you didn't get the message.

So you don't believe Jesus was Jehovah
or you don't believe Jesus was Elohim. which????

Both. Yahweh was a tribal god, and Jesus, was the son of God according to the scriptures. As a RC we never worshipped Jesus as God.

The scriptures are pretty replete with Jesus is Jehovah. Jesus Himself declarded, "before Abraham was, I am. Jesus is not God in the sense that He is not the Father, but he is God the Son.
When Jesus hung on the cross He called HIs Father, Eloi , or Elohim.

It's hearsay that Jesus declared anything, you really shouldn't be so naive.

How convenient

Not for convenience, it's a fact that the earliest fragment of the bible, and it's only a fragment, dates to several generations after Jesus died. Nobody was writing anything down as he said it, even the bible doesn't claim that.

 

[onefour1]

Thank God for his personal revelations to confirm the truth of it in these latter days. We are not left with the bible only but modern revelation and the gift of the Holy Ghost.