Zone1 Did mankind's spirits exist prior to coming to this earth?

[Stryder50]

I'm not religious but I've always believed there is an infinite dimension we cannot see that we are all apart of. We get to walk around in meat suits for a few decades or maybe some other biological shell but we always return to the infinite dimension. My own idea, I don't know or care if anyone agrees.

I've had something similar for a few decades now.

1. It starts with the assumption, based upon the consistent order and systems of the Cosmos, that there may be a Creative Designer or Intelligent Creator involved in making all this of the Universe/Cosmos.

2. Since logic would suggest "You can't get Something form Nothing."; then this Universe/Physical Existence must be product from the Substance of the Intelligent Creator/Creative Designer.

3. It then follows that if this Creator/Designer is Eternal, has no Beginning nor any End, then all that It* has made of It's own substance would also be Eternal.
* Being a single Entity and not in need of reproduction(sex) than the Creator/Designer doesn't need to be referred to as He or She.

4. Everything in this Universe(Existence) being Eternal and 'Of the Creator', than we humans would be a part of the Creator/Designer. We are "It" and "It" is we. The foundation of the implied message of Christ and others that we should treat all as we would ourselves; because "They are We, We are They".

5. Also, everything in the Universe/Existence being Eternal, than the Big Bang will become the Big Collapse, which will again become the Big Bang, and again the Big Collapse, Etc., Etc., Etc., ...

6. The above would also suggest that our Soul (the non-physical aspect of our Spirit) is Eternal (as is the Creator, which it is a part of *) and also would have no Beginning nor an End.
* Think of "us" as individual souls being like cells in the body of the Creator.

7. Our Souls having an Eternal aspect, then it's probable we would have many "lifetimes" (occupation of bodies; "meat suits"), a process often referred to as Reincarnation(s). The most probable purpose of such process would be to have a range of physical experiences that would also effect a path of Spiritual growth/education/progression leading back to a fully spiritual and non-physical existence. Alternatively, physical existence might be a game/recreation of sorts done for amusement and overcoming challenges.

8. While many to most "religions" present some to most of these concepts, no single "Religion" to date appears to have presented the full story/concept in this manner(as above). Partly why I take "The Bible - OT & NT" with a "grain of salt"; as with all other Religions and their dogma/texts. I suspect this may be because currently this planet is property of Extra Terrestrial colonists whom accelerated hominid evolution to create we humans (homo sapiens) for their purposes, and constrained Spiritual knowledge~growth might enable them to better control humans. (Religion is a population control device). As suggested in a thread I started here a while back;
The Geminga Scenario

 

[kyzr]

Under hypnosis many people describe their prior lives.
So is the soul permanent but bodies occasional?

 

[San Souci]

Your ENTIRE post is based onto "private" - self-written testimonials - that lack any proof whatsoever, so what is the point of your thread???

If you chose to believe onto something that lacks any proof - you can just as well believe anything that suits your personal mindset. Incl. that Trump was send by God and that his soul is unblemished and pure

He was indeed. Ordained by God to save the USA. Same as He was 2000 years ago.

 

[Kruska]

Under hypnosis many people describe their prior lives.
So is the soul permanent but bodies occasional?

Even under the improbable assumption that these "hypnosis-stories" would be true, it doesn't proof that these "prior lives" would have had a soul - but merely possessed the ability to feel and have a consciousness/awareness - that is controlled via nerve receptors and thus by the brain.

Therefore it would be a subconscious deficiency (aka a brain malfunction) - that these "prelife" folks, experience under hypnosis.

 

[kyzr]

Even under the improbable assumption that these "hypnosis-stories" would be true, it doesn't proof that these "prior lives" would have had a soul - but merely possessed the ability to feel and have a consciousness/awareness - that is controlled via nerve receptors and thus by the brain.
Therefore it would be a subconscious deficiency (aka a brain malfunction) - that these "prelife" folks, experience under hypnosis.

That makes no sense.
1. Person-1 lives and dies. All his brain cells die. He's cremated. ALL his memories are gone.
2. Person-2 has no physical or genetic connection to person-1, is born years later, in another country.

So how can person-2 explain person-1's life experiences unless they shared a common soul? A soul is immortal and non-physical. It is spiritual energy. It supposedly weighs 21-grams. Human lives may share souls. As you age you may even notice one.

21 grams experiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The human soul weighs 21-grams?

 

[Kruska]

That makes no sense.

Exactly - neither your statement about a soul, nor "reincarnation" - makes any sense.

1. Person-1 lives and dies. All his brain cells die. He's cremated. ALL his memories are gone.

Exactly

2. Person-2 has no physical or genetic connection to person-1, is born years later, in another country.

Exactly

So how can person-2 explain person-1's life experiences unless they shared a common soul? A soul is immortal and non-physical. It is spiritual energy. It supposedly weighs 21-grams. Human lives may share souls. As you age you may even notice one.

He read a lot of books (e.g. Patton) therefore specific knowledge is embedded in his brain - and his brain miss-functions and/or recollects this stored information (e.g. a previously seen photo of Carthage) under a state of hypnosis or mental dilemma.

Just because e.g. Patton "mentioned" in the ruins of Carthage - "I have been here before" - doesn't proof anything. That Patton was plagued by several mental/physiological issues is well known. And others simply bullshit, in order to get into headlines or to gain attention.

21 grams experiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The human soul weighs 21-grams?

Sure, so where is it, what does it look like and what does it say?? - feel free to post some photos or interviews with a soul.

A Soul Has Weight - Fact or Myth?

There is no scientific evidence that shows that living beings have a soul or that a soul has weight. However, the notion that a soul has weight (specifically 21 grams) does come from a scientific study.

factmyth.com

Physician Duncan MacDougall published a study in 1907 that concluded that a soul (or, in his own words, “soul substance”) may have weight. Specifically, the study, to some extent, implied that a soul might weigh “three-fourths of an ounce” or 21.3 grams.
This data was gathered from a limited set of people in a nursing home who were weighed upon their death by MacDougall.

While his findings did show that a few patients lost weight upon death, and one lost 21.3 grams specifically, the results were a bit all over the place. Ultimately only one of the six patients weighed lost the famed “21 grams.”

Further, and somewhat disturbingly, MacDougall also allegedly poisoned 15 dogs and weighed them to test his theory… and none of them lost weight. This led MacDougall to conclude dogs didn’t have souls (?).

Given the limited sample size, the fact that only one result matched exactly, and that one of its conclusions was “dogs don’t have souls,”… it is safe to say that this study does not act as evidence of the weight of the soul.

BTW - Vishnu, just talked to me and said - don't waste your time with these people.
And Odysseus also told me that he never had this idea with the horse - but one of his Trojan serfs - hey I must have been Odysseus in my previous life.

 

[zaangalewa]

Did mankind's spirits exist prior to coming to this earth?​

Everyone, everything is an answer to this what had happened before. The moment we could change the past - if the past is still existing as is existing the moment "now" (what I doubt about) - the answers would be other answers. The moment something happens the anwers in the future will be different living answers. That's perhaps the real reason why we always find more and more new questions when we try to find an answer to one of our own questions.

The new modern German pagans interpret older and oldest stories about "the godess" in this way:

... Und es kündet dein Erscheinen Glück und Frieden jedem Stand
Eisen schläft, die Waffen schweigen, und gestorben ist das Weh
Froh darfst du zum Bade steigen im geheimnisvollen See

Oft auch tief im Waldesschatten hat man weinend dich erblickt
Wie einst Freya ihrem Gatten goldne Tränen nachgeschickt
Bist du Freya, die den Frohen Freude bringt trotz eigner Qual?
Bist du gar des höchsten Hohen, bist du Wodans Licht Gemahl?
Lodert frommen Herdbrands Feuer doch auch dir in heilger Glut
Und wie jener ist dir teuer junger Ehe köstlich Gut
Oder muss ich tiefer dringen bis zu Hel durch Gruft und Grab?
Steigst du, Leben zu erzwingen, gar zur Totenwelt hinab?

Denn dort ruhen die Ungeborenen, wartend, dass du sie befreist
Wie du auch den Frühverlorenen dort zurück die Pfade weist
Und so knüpfen deine Hände der Vollendung großen Ring:
Tod und Leben, Anfang, Ende, alles kommt auf deinen Wink
Heilige Göttin, vielgestaltig wandelst du auf deutschem Grund
Und im Wirken mannigfaltig wird uns deine Gottheit kund
Wer du sein magst, Frigga, holde, zählst du Hellias Reiche zu:
Mir, im Haar von lichtem Golde bist Allmutter Erde du ...

-----

Translation:

... And your appearance heralds happiness and peace to every estate
Iron sleeps, the weapons are silent, and the woe is dead
Gladly you may rise to bathe in the mysterious lake

Often, even deep in the forest shadows, you have been seen weeping
As Freya once sent golden tears after her husband
Are you Freya, who brings joy to the happy despite your own torment?
Are you even the highest high one, are you Wodan's light consort?
Does the fire of the pious hearth blaze with holy ardor?
And, like him, thy young marriage is precious to thee
Or must I penetrate deeper to Hel through tomb and grave?
Do you descend to the world of the dead to force life?

For there the unborn rest, waiting for you to set them free
Just as you show the paths back to the prematurely lost there
And so your hands tie the great ring of perfection:
Death and life, beginning, end, everything comes at your beck and call
Holy Goddess, manifold you walk on German soil
And in your work manifold your divinity becomes known to us
Who you may be, Frigga, fair one, you belong to Hellia's realm:
To me, in hair of bright gold, you are All-Mother Earth ...

-----

In my view to the world this makes sense. We all come from one point and will go back. We are able to die every moment - but we are also able never to be born - for example in case of an abortion. But also before we get the ticket to live something was physically (so also destroyable) here - for example a year ago before we had been biologically born - what will be one day our current "I". And this process started - as we can see today - in this what we call physically "the big bang" (which was little and no bang) . Perhaps we may see "birth" as a continuing process of creation and death. And in this process we are able "Die Weichen zu stellen für den Zug des Lebens." ... = "Setting the course for the train of life." The problem: We do not know what we do when we are setting this course - eventually for the whole universe. A most little cause is able to have a maximal effect.





By the way: German is as far as I know the only language in the world with a female grammatical gender for the sun. The live spending sun was always a representant of the highest god. So it is clear that the original highest god in Germany once had been a godess. The problem: We know absolutelly nothing about this very old religion any longer. But we all should be aware: God is not only our all father, god is also our all mother as Hildegard von Bingen once said. In my own words: God is not only creator but also caregiver. I think it's never wrong to trust in god - whether we understand or do not understand what are his/her/their ways - whether we understand or do not understand the way of god. God is love. God is life.

 

[Ace Nova]

The Spirit from which mankind “came” is eternal.

Your soul, on the other hand, is an extension and a gift of the Eternal Holy Spirit.

 

[kyzr]

Exactly - neither your statement about a soul, nor "reincarnation" - makes any sense.
Exactly
Exactly
He read a lot of books (e.g. Patton) therefore specific knowledge is embedded in his brain - and his brain miss-functions and/or recollects this stored information (e.g. a previously seen photo of Carthage) under a state of hypnosis or mental dilemma.
Just because e.g. Patton "mentioned" in the ruins of Carthage - "I have been here before" - doesn't proof anything. That Patton was plagued by several mental/physiological issues is well known. And others simply bullshit, in order to get into headlines or to gain attention.
Sure, so where is it, what does it look like and what does it say?? - feel free to post some photos or interviews with a soul.

Physician Duncan MacDougall published a study in 1907 that concluded that a soul (or, in his own words, “soul substance”) may have weight. Specifically, the study, to some extent, implied that a soul might weigh “three-fourths of an ounce” or 21.3 grams.
This data was gathered from a limited set of people in a nursing home who were weighed upon their death by MacDougall.
While his findings did show that a few patients lost weight upon death, and one lost 21.3 grams specifically, the results were a bit all over the place. Ultimately only one of the six patients weighed lost the famed “21 grams.”
Further, and somewhat disturbingly, MacDougall also allegedly poisoned 15 dogs and weighed them to test his theory… and none of them lost weight. This led MacDougall to conclude dogs didn’t have souls (?).
Given the limited sample size, the fact that only one result matched exactly, and that one of its conclusions was “dogs don’t have souls,”… it is safe to say that this study does not act as evidence of the weight of the soul.

BTW - Vishnu, just talked to me and said - don't waste your time with these people.
And Odysseus also told me that he never had this idea with the horse - but one of his Trojan serfs - hey I must have been Odysseus in my previous life.

You can keep denying scientific facts all you want.
1. Hypnosis is total bullshit. (it is actually real)
2. People lie under hypnosis. (don't think so)
3. Patton must have dreamed that he was there at Carthage and it seemed real. (I don't know how he'd do under hypnosis)
4. MacDougall's study is nonsense. (so you say, but the science is there)
5. Near death experiences where the soul left the body and hovered above seeing everything that was happening, describing it in detail, when their body was legally dead, until revived.

Vishnu and Odysseus may talk to you, but until you go under hypnosis and are asked about your prior lives, if any, you won't know for certain. So I'll just say you're lying.

 

[kyzr]

Everyone, everything is an answer to this what had happened before. The moment we could change the past - if the past is still existing as is existing the moment "now" (what I doubt about) - the answers would be other answers. The moment something happens the anwers in the future will be different living answers. That's perhaps the real reason why we always find more and more new questions when we try to find an answer to one of our own questions.

The new modern German pagans interpret older and oldest stories about "the godess" in this way:

... Und es kündet dein Erscheinen Glück und Frieden jedem Stand
Eisen schläft, die Waffen schweigen, und gestorben ist das Weh
Froh darfst du zum Bade steigen im geheimnisvollen See

Oft auch tief im Waldesschatten hat man weinend dich erblickt
Wie einst Freya ihrem Gatten goldne Tränen nachgeschickt
Bist du Freya, die den Frohen Freude bringt trotz eigner Qual?
Bist du gar des höchsten Hohen, bist du Wodans Licht Gemahl?
Lodert frommen Herdbrands Feuer doch auch dir in heilger Glut
Und wie jener ist dir teuer junger Ehe köstlich Gut
Oder muss ich tiefer dringen bis zu Hel durch Gruft und Grab?
Steigst du, Leben zu erzwingen, gar zur Totenwelt hinab?

Denn dort ruhen die Ungeborenen, wartend, dass du sie befreist
Wie du auch den Frühverlorenen dort zurück die Pfade weist
Und so knüpfen deine Hände der Vollendung großen Ring:
Tod und Leben, Anfang, Ende, alles kommt auf deinen Wink
Heilige Göttin, vielgestaltig wandelst du auf deutschem Grund
Und im Wirken mannigfaltig wird uns deine Gottheit kund
Wer du sein magst, Frigga, holde, zählst du Hellias Reiche zu:
Mir, im Haar von lichtem Golde bist Allmutter Erde du ...

-----

Translation:

... And your appearance heralds happiness and peace to every estate
Iron sleeps, the weapons are silent, and the woe is dead
Gladly you may rise to bathe in the mysterious lake

Often, even deep in the forest shadows, you have been seen weeping
As Freya once sent golden tears after her husband
Are you Freya, who brings joy to the happy despite your own torment?
Are you even the highest high one, are you Wodan's light consort?
Does the fire of the pious hearth blaze with holy ardor?
And, like him, thy young marriage is precious to thee
Or must I penetrate deeper to Hel through tomb and grave?
Do you descend to the world of the dead to force life?

For there the unborn rest, waiting for you to set them free
Just as you show the paths back to the prematurely lost there
And so your hands tie the great ring of perfection:
Death and life, beginning, end, everything comes at your beck and call
Holy Goddess, manifold you walk on German soil
And in your work manifold your divinity becomes known to us
Who you may be, Frigga, fair one, you belong to Hellia's realm:
To me, in hair of bright gold, you are All-Mother Earth ...

-----

In my view to the world this makes sense. We all come from one point and will go back. We are able to die every moment - but we are also able never to be born - for example in case of an abortion. But also before we get the ticket to live something was physically (so also destroyable) here - for example a year ago before we had been biologically born - what will be one day our current "I". And this process started - as we can see today - in this what we call physically "the big bang" (which was little and no bang) . Perhaps we may see "birth" as a continuing process of creation and death. And in this process we are able "Die Weichen zu stellen für den Zug des Lebens." ... = "Setting the course for the train of life." The problem: We do not know what we do when we are setting this course - eventually for the whole universe. A most little cause is able to have a maximal effect.

By the way: German is as far as I know the only language in the world with a female grammatical gender for the sun. The live spending sun was always a representant of the highest god. So it is clear that the original highest god in Germany once had been a godess. The problem: We know absolutelly nothing about this very old religion any longer. But we all should be aware: God is not only our all father, god is also our all mother as Hildegard von Bingen once said. In my own words: God is not only creator but also caregiver. I think it's never wrong to trust in god - whether we understand or do not understand what are his/her/their ways - whether we understand or do not understand the way of god. God is love. God is life.

God is love. God is life.

Good conclusion!
The modern German Pagans may still sing and dance?

 

[Stryder50]

Soul Survivor: The Reincarnation of a World War II Fighter Pilot Paperback – June 11, 2010​

...
This is the story of James Leininger, who-- a little more than two weeks after his second birthday-- began having blood-curdling nightmares that just would not stop. When James began screaming out recurring phrases like, "Plane on fire! Little man can't get out!" the Leiningers finally admitted that they truly had to take notice.

When details of planes and war tragedies no two-year-old boy could know continued-- even in stark daylight-- Bruce and Andrea Leininger began to realize that this was an incredible situation. Soul Survivor is the story of how the Leiningers pieced together what their son was communicating and eventually discovered that he was reliving the past life of World War II fighter pilot James Huston. As Bruce Leininger struggled to understand what was happening to his son, he also uncovered details of James Huston's life-- and death-- as a pilot that will fascinate military buffs everywhere.

In Soul Survivor, we are taken for a gripping ride as the Leiningers' belief system is shaken to the core, and both of these families come to know a little boy who, against all odds and even in the face of true skeptics, harbors the soul of this man who died long ago.
...

BTW, note that while the cover of this book shows a Vought F4U Corsair, which Huston had trained on and flown for a while, he was flying a Grumman F4F Wildcat from the escort carrier he was stationed on when shot down and died.

(Not getting the Amazon link to copy correctly.)

 

[kyzr]

I like to hear about "God Winks", just say hello...

After Years In Darkness, Akiane Kramarik's Famous Painting Of Jesus Brought 'Into The Light Again'

Chicago-area prodigy Akiane Kramarik made a name for herself in the art world at just 8 years old when her painting of Jesus launched her career.

www.cbsnews.com

At the age of four, Colton Burpo, whose story was featured in the best-selling book Heaven Is for Real and the film adaptation of the same name, underwent a critical operation after his appendix burst. Although it was not a near-death experience (his heart never stopped), he did say he had an experience of visiting Heaven and had visions of Jesus. Years later, when he saw Kramarik's Prince of Peace on TV, he told his father "Dad, that one’s right.

 

[zaangalewa]

God is love. God is life.

Good conclusion!
The modern German Pagans may still sing and dance?

I'm no pagan, I'm a Catholic and I think truth is always true - independent from the person who speaks out a truth. And god was always here - independent from anything else. And music is ... ¿divine? ... it looks to me as if even hate is not real hate when someone sings a hateful song - because real hate not sings. And the answer to a song is a song - not tyranny.

Here one of my favorite "pagan" German songs:

 

[Kruska]

You can keep denying scientific facts all you want.
1. Hypnosis is total bullshit. (it is actually real)
2. People lie under hypnosis. (don't think so)
3. Patton must have dreamed that he was there at Carthage and it seemed real. (I don't know how he'd do under hypnosis)
4. MacDougall's study is nonsense. (so you say, but the science is there)
5. Near death experiences where the soul left the body and hovered above seeing everything that was happening, describing it in detail, when their body was legally dead, until revived.

Vishnu and Odysseus may talk to you, but until you go under hypnosis and are asked about your prior lives, if any, you won't know for certain. So I'll just say you're lying.

Keep your "mission" going - you and others are obviously in desperate need of it.

BTW - the act of Hypnosis as such is a scientific fact - not some religious bull. However the interpretations of statements under hypnosis - aren't underlying a single scientific fact - but merely represent the personal interpretations/opinions by a respective hypnotherapist.

And persons with a deranged personality - e.g. reincarnation folks, will naturally under hypnosis, express/confirm these derangement's. aka will lie under hypnosis just as any schizophrenic person - who factually believes into his own "disturbed mind".

And there is no proof, not to mention a scientific proof for - "near death experiences"
One person started this nonsense, and since then they are all hovering above the OP table and report a white light. Just like UFO's are all disk shaped and have flashy lights - okay some now describe them also as being e.g. triangular with flashy lights.

BTW - Jesus must have been "beamed" up, into one of them.

 

[kyzr]

Keep your "mission" going - you and others are obviously in desperate need of it.
BTW - the act of Hypnosis as such is a scientific fact - not some religious bull. However the interpretations of statements under hypnosis - aren't underlying a single scientific fact - but merely represent the personal interpretations/opinions by a respective hypnotherapist.
And persons with a deranged personality - e.g. reincarnation folks, will naturally under hypnosis, express/confirm these derangement's. aka will lie under hypnosis just as any schizophrenic person - who factually believes into his own "disturbed mind".
And there is no proof, not to mention a scientific proof for - "near death experiences"
One person started this nonsense, and since then they are all hovering above the OP table and report a white light. Just like UFO's are all disk shaped and have flashy lights - okay some now describe them also as being e.g. triangular with flashy lights.
BTW - Jesus must have been "beamed" up, into one of them.

1. I assume you are a card carrying atheist? (An agnostic is an atheist with no balls)

2. We are on this "Religion Forum" to discuss religion. Not sure why you are here? Worried that you may be wrong about God?

3. If you want to read a good book about God by an astrophysicist I recommend Bernard Haisch books, "The God Theory" and "The Miracle of our Universe". The books prove mathematically that we could not be here by random chance.

4. Not sure you are into high level debates about God, but this one is an example that I found fascinating:

 

[zaangalewa]

... An agnostic is an atheist with no balls ...

What's nonsense. Atheism is a belief. Agnosticism is a philosophy. An agnostics not knows whether god exists or not exists. That's all - although the whole philosophy is much more complex because it show that god is able to be ... how to say this? ... an impossibilty to think even in case this impossibility is real ... is able to cause effects.

Today most people think agnosticism justifies atheism - what's more than only totally stupid. Most people who are called "agnostics"- or who call themselve "agnostics" - are just simple atheists who do not doubt only a little that god not exists. They think their belief is knowledge while they believe not to believe.

 

[kyzr]

What's nonsense. Atheism is a belief. Agnosticism is a philosophy. An agnostics not knows whether god exists or not exists. That's all - although the whole philosophy is much more complex because it show that god is able to be ... how to say this? ... an impossibility to think even in case this impossibility is real ... is able to cause effects.

Today most people think agnosticism justifies atheism - what's more than only totally stupid. Most people who are called "agnostics"- or who call themselves "agnostics" - are just simple atheists who do not doubt only a little that god not exists. They think their belief is knowledge while they believe not to believe.

Thanks for the reply. Part of the fun of replying to your posts is interpreting what the translator writes compared what you intended it to write.
1. True, atheism is a belief that there is no God. True atheists are anti-religion. They oppose all public displays of religious thought, like Nativity scenes at Christmas. I consider "Atheism" a religion, such that it cannot be promoted in schools just as religions cannot.

2. Agnosticism is a philosophy? I think "agnostic" means you can't prove something. If you refer to the question "does God exist?" Agnostics say "don't know, I can't prove he does or doesn't". I call agnostics "shallow thinkers" because they don't explore the science either for or against the "proof of God".

3. I think we agree that agnostics are "simple atheists", as opposed to "militant atheists". I was born into a religious household in a religious family. I was taught by Catholic nuns and priests. I can imagine that there are other families who are not religious. Growing up in a family where "faith" is not an important factor may explain why some people are agnostic or atheist. There is a saying that "there are no atheists in foxholes" (during war). Lenin said "religion is the opium of the people".

All things considered, "God" is a concept that gives focus and meaning to life. Without God we're no different than bugs.

 

[zaangalewa]

Thanks for the reply. Part of the fun of replying to your posts is interpreting what the translator writes compared what you intended it to write.

Which interpreter and/or translator?

1. True, atheism is a belief that there is no God. True atheists are anti-religion.

No. Atheism is a hotchpotch of "religions". One of the most aggressive atheistic "sects" had been the Soviets for example.

They oppose all public displays of religious thought, like Nativity scenes at Christmas. I consider "Atheism" a religion, such that it cannot be promoted in schools just as religions cannot.

2. Agnosticism is a philosophy? I think "agnostic" means you can't prove something.

No. Agnosticism asks what we are able to know about the existence of god.

If you refer to the question "does God exist?" Agnostics say "don't know, I can't prove he does or doesn't". I call agnostics "shallow thinkers" because they don't explore the science either for or against the "proof of God".

It's exactly in the opposite. All sciences come from philosophy. Immanuel Kant did do a great job in this context when he showed the invalidity of all known proofs of god. Currently "only" one proof for the existence of god from Kurt Goedel is not falsified.

3. I think we agree that agnostics are "simple atheists",

No. I am for example an agnostics and a Catholic. Not to know that god exists and/or not exists is not any reason not to believe in god. And not to believe "god exists" is also not a reason not to be a Catholic.

as opposed to "militant atheists".

I know that nearly the whole world says so meanwhile - but this shows only a titanic form of stupidity on an extremely high level of stupidity.

I was born into a religious household in a religious family. I was taught by Catholic nuns and priests. I can imagine that there are other families who are not religious. Growing up in a family where "faith" is not an important factor may explain why some people are agnostic or atheist.

No. I'm very sure never any of your family members said "I know god exists". They all spoke about their faith, feelings and imaginations - about their belief, trust and tradition. And about ways how to live a good life in the eyes of god. Isn't it?

There is a saying that "there are no atheists in foxholes" (during war).

Never heard someone say so. No idea what this could mean.

Lenin said "religion is the opium of the people".

Marx said so. Verbally he said:

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

I guess he refered with this poetic words to the poet Novalis and his use of opium as an universal medicine. Opium was seen at this time of history to be a universal medicine. Even today many people think "in vino veritas", "cannabis is a medicine", "LSD expands the mind" and so on and so on. With religions have alcohol and drugs nothing to do.

Because of this words which the atheist Karl Marx wrote down during his comfortable life in London the atheists Lenin, Stalin, Mao and others murdered decades of millions of people of many religions.

All things considered, "God" is a concept that gives focus and meaning to life. Without God we're no different than bugs.

Strange comparison. Why should a bug be unhappy because god made him to a bug? Do you not know that god is a bug?

 

[kyzr]

Which interpreter and/or translator?

No. Atheism is a hodgepodge of "religions". One of the most aggressive atheistic "sects" had been the Soviets for example.

No. Agnosticism asks what we are able to know about the existence of god.

It's exactly in the opposite. All sciences come from philosophy. Immanuel Kant did do a great job in this context when he showed the invalidity of all known proofs of god. Currently "only" one proof for the existence of god from Kurt Goedel is not falsified.

No. I am for example an agnostics and a Catholic. Not to know that god exists and/or not exists is not any reason not to believe in god. And not to believe "god exists" is also not a reason not to be a Catholic.

I know that nearly the whole world says so meanwhile - but this shows only a titanic form of stupidity on an extremely high level of stupidity.

No. I'm very sure never any of your family members said "I know god exists". They all spoke about their faith, feelings and imaginations - about their belief, trust and tradition. And about ways how to live a good life in the eyes of god. Isn't it?

Never heard someone say so. No idea what this could mean.

Marx said so. Verbally he said:
"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
I guess he referred with this poetic words to the poet Novalis and his use of opium as an universal medicine. Opium was seen at this time of history to be a universal medicine. Even today many people think "in vino veritas", "cannabis is a medicine", "LSD expands the mind" and so on and so on. With religions have alcohol and drugs nothing to do.
Because of this words which the atheist Karl Marx wrote down during his comfortable life in London the atheists Lenin, Stalin, Mao and others murdered decades of millions of people of many religions.

Strange comparison. Why should a bug be unhappy because god made him to a bug? Do you not know that god is a bug?

1. I assume you write posts in German. I read them in English. Sometimes the translations are sketchy.

2. I agree the Soviets were aggressive atheists. I don't think atheism is a combination of religions. Its binary, yes/no.

3. We agree on agnosticism

4. Gödel made a good "proof" but some of his assumptions were faulty.

Can God Be Proved Mathematically?

Some mathematicians have sought a logical proof for the existence of God. Here’s what they discovered

www.scientificamerican.com

5. Saying you're a Catholic-Agnostic means that you do not really "believe" in God. You go thru the motions like a robot would. I'm a Catholic-Lutheran, I like some things from both churches. My wife is Lutheran, so shes a Lutheran-Catholic.

6. We agree that aggressive atheists are stupid, ignorant, and should be ostracized.

7. A belief in God is a "belief" without proof. Catholics have many documented miracles, then there was Fatima, then there are occasional "God Winks". But for most of us that go to church, we believe in the New Testament and the New Covenant withoutr proof. (Blessed are they who have not seen...)

8. In war when you are in a foxhole, and enemy artillery and mortars are landing all around you, even atheists pray.

<---------- NOT ATHEISTS

9. Correct, Marx not Lenin. I'm old, my brain is missing some data.

10. I think all bugs are happy just doing what their DNA tells them to do. I don't know if bugs technically have a "consciousness"? But humans are supposed to use their consciousness to make good life-choices. Without God we're no different than trees or flowers. We just live and then we die. If we have souls, there is a God. There is another thread where we're discussing souls and past lives. Atheists don't like that thread.

 

[zaangalewa]

1. I assume you write posts in German.

English is only a an antiquated German dialect full of Latin expessions. And you grammar is for me like a prison.

I read them in English. Sometimes the translations are sketchy.

Which translation? Ever thought about to think on your own and to try to understand what others think? What very most people say and think about agnosticism is just simple bullshit.

2. I agree the Soviets were aggressive atheists.

Same had been the Nazis but they also had been pragmatists who tried to misuse all forms of spirituality.

I don't think atheism is a combination of religions. Its binary, yes/no.

The religion atheism has the same problem like all other religions. No one is a good persons only because he is an atheist and/or pure materialist. Example: The modern world replaced the word "compassion" (background: life is the same as to suffer) with "empathy" (background: brain structures show a special mix of electric and humoral - ah sorry: hormonal - activation). But what for is good empathy without moral value? For the creation of moral values and justice? Or means this only that a torturer needs empathy for to find out what hurts another person?

3. We agree on agnosticism

Do we? ... Do I? If "yes" - how do you know?

4. Gödel made a good "proof" but some of his assumptions were faulty.

Can God Be Proved Mathematically?

Some mathematicians have sought a logical proof for the existence of God. Here’s what they discovered

www.scientificamerican.com

5. Saying you're a Catholic-Agnostic means that you do not really "believe" in God.

No. That's nonsense. I believe in god. I'm even very familiar "since ever" with god and I still remember for example how Jesus laughed when I found out that he is not existing. We often made jokes about his not-existence. Indeed it was a very amusing situation to find out that it is impossible to say that the own reality simulation is real while other reality simulations are unreal.

You go thru the motions like a robot would.

I'm like Arnold Terminator? - Or is Arny in reality no terminator?

I'm a Catholic-Lutheran, I like some things from both churches. My wife is Lutheran, so shes a Lutheran-Catholic.

My wife is also a Lutheran. She finds everything because she has a good relation to Saint Antonius.

6. We agree that aggressive atheists are stupid, ignorant, and should be ostracized.

I agree that senseless aggressive people make not a big sense - except to be no sparring partners.

7. A belief in God is a "belief" without proof.

You say here all monotheists are agnostics.

Catholics have many documented miracles, then there was Fatima, then there are occasional "God Winks". But for most of us that go to church, we believe in the New Testament and the New Covenant withoutr proof. (Blessed are they who have not seen...)

-----
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.
-----

-----

8. In war when you are in a foxhole, and enemy artillery and mortars are landing all around you, even atheists pray.
View attachment 939639 <---------- NOT ATHEISTS

God likes jokes.

9. Correct, Marx not Lenin. I'm old, my brain is missing some data.

¿Brain? - what for heavens sake is a brain? I will ask my wife - she will know. I'm sure St Anthony will tell her where I've stashed it again.

10. I think all bugs are happy just doing what their DNA tells them to do. I don't know if bugs technically have a "consciousness"?

Also a bug is language of god, is a song of god.

But humans are supposed to use their consciousness to make good life-choices.

To have or not to have a conscience: We are "the crown" - we are responsible for all and every life on planet earth - what is perhaps also all and every life in the whole universe. But a so called "bad conscience" is in reality a good conscience. "Pain" forces us often to do the right things - but it's better to do the right things on reason it is just simple good to do so.

Without God we're no different than trees or flowers.

I'm sure I would love it to be a tree or a flower.

We just live and then we die. If we have souls, there is a God.

Heaven is full of bugs, trees and flowers. But is it full of human beings? Who knows?

There is another thread where we're discussing souls and past lives. Atheists don't like that thread.

I guess that's the most important reason for me why I do not like to be an atheist. What for heavens sake like atheists except egocentrism and the feeling only all others are idiots believing in the wrong paradox things while they believe not to believe?

=====

PS: It's by the way not a question of belief that something existed once what you are now. If a time machine would exist I could go back a million years and could wipe you out of our history. That's what terminators are doing, isn't it? So something what you are now existed also a million years ago. Even when no one was able to see you a million years ago - your own pre-existence is nevertheless a reality.