Do Americans need weapons?

[hadit]

You claim guns and criminals, but you also claim the bulk of gun deaths is suicide, so your argument that you need a gun for self defence against criminals is vastly reduced. Thank you for clarifying the self defence fallacy. The 2 Amendment would appear it increases suicides in the US.

There is no need to justify gun ownership in the US. The Constitution allows it, the end.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

There is no need to justify gun ownership in the US. The Constitution allows it, the end.

The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact.

Right now the 2A is being leveraged well beyond it's rational original intent. America has the highest gun ownership rate of any developed nation on earth and we have along with it the highest gun homicide rate.

At some point we need to re-equilibrate our "rights" when countless thousands die every year.

The Constitution was NOT written by God in stone. It has, built into it, the ability to change or alter its content.

THAT'S the true power of the Constitution.

 

[hadit]

The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact.

Right now the 2A is being leveraged well beyond it's rational original intent. America has the highest gun ownership rate of any developed nation on earth and we have along with it the highest gun homicide rate.

At some point we need to re-equilibrate our "rights" when countless thousands die every year.

The Constitution was NOT written by God in stone. It has, built into it, the ability to change or alter its content.

THAT'S the true power of the Constitution.

Right, so get a new amendment ratified that cancels the 2nd. For now, there's no need for anyone to justify owning a firearm in the United States, but the fact that murder rates have gone down while gun ownership has gone up indicates that something other than just guns is a factor.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Right, so get a new amendment ratified that cancels the 2nd.

How about one that simply clarifies some limitations on the second?

For now, there's no need for anyone to justify owning a firearm in the United States, but the fact that murder rates have gone down while gun ownership has gone up indicates that something other than just guns is a factor.

Murder rates going down in America is kind of like being proud of being the skinniest kid at fat camp. (Old joke)

America patting itself on its back because record breaking murder rates are slightly less than they were a few years back is not really an impressive feat. It's actually kind of sick.

 

[hadit]

How about one that simply clarifies some limitations on the second?

Whatever. That's how you do something about the 2nd, but you have to convince an awful lot of people to agree with you.

Murder rates going down in America is kind of like being proud of being the skinniest kid at fat camp. (Old joke)

America patting itself on its back because record breaking murder rates are slightly less than they were a few years back is not really an impressive feat. It's actually kind of sick.

You're missing the point, which is that a LOT more guns was met with LOWER murder rates. Using gun-grabber logic, it should have gone UP, not DOWN. Basically, the right people got the guns, which is kind of the point, after all.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You're missing the point, which is that a LOT more guns was met with LOWER murder rates.

But again, that's laughable. America has the highest gun homicide rate of any developed first world nation by far! Sometimes orders of magnitude higher.

If this argument of More Guns = Less Murder held ANY water it would mean that Japan and Belgium and the UK would be piled high with corpses. It's absurd on its face.

 

[hadit]

But again, that's laughable. America has the highest gun homicide rate of any developed first world nation by far! Sometimes orders of magnitude higher.

If this argument of More Guns = Less Murder held ANY water it would mean that Japan and Belgium and the UK would be piled high with corpses. It's absurd on its face.

The stats are what they are. We added a lot more guns and had less murder. The bottom line is, you can't just blame guns as the driving force behind murder.

 

[2aguy]

The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact.

Right now the 2A is being leveraged well beyond it's rational original intent. America has the highest gun ownership rate of any developed nation on earth and we have along with it the highest gun homicide rate.

At some point we need to re-equilibrate our "rights" when countless thousands die every year.

The Constitution was NOT written by God in stone. It has, built into it, the ability to change or alter its content.

THAT'S the true power of the Constitution.

No, actually it isn't...

Americans own some 600 million guns, and use them 1.1 million times a year to save lives from rape, robbery, murder, beatings and stabbings.....

You, of course, include suicide, since you are a dishonest, anti-gun fascist.......

Of the criminal murder rate in the U.S., the majority of the victims are criminals...murdered by other criminals......of the rest, the majority are the friends and family of criminals living in democrat party controlled cities, where the major cause of these murders is the democrat party war on police, and the democrat party policy of releasing violent gun criminals over and over again, no matter how many times they commit gun crimes....

The Constitution and Bill of Rights were written to remind us that loony tunes, anti-gun fascists like you, can't take away Rights, simply because you have feelings....

 

[2aguy]

But again, that's laughable. America has the highest gun homicide rate of any developed first world nation by far! Sometimes orders of magnitude higher.

If this argument of More Guns = Less Murder held ANY water it would mean that Japan and Belgium and the UK would be piled high with corpses. It's absurd on its face.

We have more murders because we have a political party that creates and supports gun crime......the democrat party attacks the police, then releases repeat gun offenders....

Meanwhile, the "other countries," around the world have had more murder than we have had because their governments turned on their citizens and murdered 15 million of them in Europe.....more people murdered in 6 years than in 82 years......and if you throw in Russia and China and their government murder, our murder rate would never match theirs......no matter how hard our criminals tried.....

More guns = less gun murder, less gun crime, less violent crime.....

Over 27 years, from 1993 to the year 2015, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

 

[2aguy]

But again, that's laughable. America has the highest gun homicide rate of any developed first world nation by far! Sometimes orders of magnitude higher.

If this argument of More Guns = Less Murder held ANY water it would mean that Japan and Belgium and the UK would be piled high with corpses. It's absurd on its face.

More gun ownership?

Does not equal more gun murder.....you idiot...

Another statistical qualification is that while the raw numbers of gun deaths in 2020 represent new records, the rates do not, because there are many more Americans now. But given recent trends, those records might not stand for long.

The 6.2 gun murders per 100,000 people in 2020 is a full percentage point below the 7.2 per 100,000 recorded in 1974 and the seven gun suicides per 100,000 is below the 7.7 rate recorded in 1977. But the rate of gun murders has been climbing steeply since 2015 while the rate of gun suicides has been climbing more gradually.

Gun Deaths Increase As Gun Laws Are Loosened in Ohio and Other States

Incidents of gun violence have increased while Ohio lawmakers create legislation to loosen firearm restrictions.

www.citybeat.com

2015?

What happened?

1) The democrat party went to war against our police.

2) The democrat party decided to increase the number of violent gun criminals they released from prison, over and over again.

3) The democrat party unleashed their brown shirts, blm/antifa, to burn, loot and murder for 7 months, in primarily black neighborhoods, and ordered the police to stand down and not stop the burning, looting and killing.......

 

[Captain Caveman]

Are you dumb…..your posts reveal the answer……

Japan and Sourh Korea have higher rates of successful suicide you idiot…….guns aren’t the issue. Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings and stabbings…..according to the centers for disease control…….can you tell which number is bigger?

I'm not interested in other countries. Your argument is that a major reason for the 2nd Amendment was having firearms for self defence, yet you now claim the bulk of gun incidents are down to suicides. Now you stated that thicko, you blew your own balls off with that. I've told you all along, the self defence argument was just a guise, and you've confirmed it. So if you want to call anyone dumb, then start with yourself, dummy.

So allowing everyone to freely obtain a gun without infringing their rights for self defence is an utter load of bollox, and you've just confirmed it.

 

[Captain Caveman]

There is no need to justify gun ownership in the US. The Constitution allows it, the end.

But to have a debate, you have to get beyond the Rinse, Wash, Repeat statements. So forget the 2A, we all know it's there, it's discussing the topic beyond that. I would say gun nuts won't/don't because they know their argument is weak to piss poor.

 

[hadit]

But to have a debate, you have to get beyond the Rinse, Wash, Repeat statements. So forget the 2A, we all know it's there, it's discussing the topic beyond that. I would say gun nuts won't/don't because they know their argument is weak to piss poor.

Remember the mindset of the people who wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Their intent was for the population to be able to fight back against a corrupt government. Those who insist we would need nukes and F-15s to fight the US military forget that a very large percentage of the military would not only refuse to take up arms against their fellow citizens but would make those weapons available for use by them, and as we have seen in other countries an armed populace can make even a heavily armed military presence very costly. So fine, put the 2nd aside for a moment. Everyone needs to decide if the illusion of safety brought by law-abiding citizens having no guns is worth being completely helpless against armed intruders, either foreign or domestic.

The bottom line is, freedom is messy, chaotic, dangerous and requires people to act like adults to maintain it. It's also preferable to the alternative.

 

[2aguy]

More gun ownership?

Does not equal more gun murder.....you idiot...

Another statistical qualification is that while the raw numbers of gun deaths in 2020 represent new records, the rates do not, because there are many more Americans now. But given recent trends, those records might not stand for long.

The 6.2 gun murders per 100,000 people in 2020 is a full percentage point below the 7.2 per 100,000 recorded in 1974 and the seven gun suicides per 100,000 is below the 7.7 rate recorded in 1977. But the rate of gun murders has been climbing steeply since 2015 while the rate of gun suicides has been climbing more gradually.

Gun Deaths Increase As Gun Laws Are Loosened in Ohio and Other States

Incidents of gun violence have increased while Ohio lawmakers create legislation to loosen firearm restrictions.

www.citybeat.com

Again....

I'm not interested in other countries. Your argument is that a major reason for the 2nd Amendment was having firearms for self defence, yet you now claim the bulk of gun incidents are down to suicides. Now you stated that thicko, you blew your own balls off with that. I've told you all along, the self defence argument was just a guise, and you've confirmed it. So if you want to call anyone dumb, then start with yourself, dummy.

So allowing everyone to freely obtain a gun without infringing their rights for self defence is an utter load of bollox, and you've just confirmed it.

Yes....suicides, which would be done with other tools if they didn't have guns....which you see in Japan, China, South Korea and a lot of European countries with extreme gun control..

Moron.....what part of my quoting 1.1 million times a year that guns are used by normal people for self defense "blew my own balls off..." you idiot....

You really are stupid...

Which is a bigger number...1.1 million or the number of suicides by gun...you moron.....

 

[Open Bolt]

You claim guns and criminals, but you also claim the bulk of gun deaths is suicide, so your argument that you need a gun for self defence against criminals is vastly reduced. Thank you for clarifying the self defence fallacy.

First, this "need" nonsense is, well, nonsense. Free people don't bother to justify that we have a need for a weapon. If we choose to have a gun, we go buy that gun.

Second you are exercising very poor logic. The existence of suicides does not change the fact that some Americans choose to have guns for self defense.

The 2 Amendment would appear it increases suicides in the US.

I am in favor of setting up a system where suicidal people can voluntarily and temporarily hand in their guns for safekeeping until they are better.

Your argument is that a major reason for the 2nd Amendment was having firearms for self defence, yet you now claim the bulk of gun incidents are down to suicides. Now you stated that thicko, you blew your own balls off with that.

The existence of suicides does not change the reality that some Americans choose to have guns for self defense.

I've told you all along, the self defence argument was just a guise, and you've confirmed it.

He has confirmed no such thing. Some Americans do choose to have guns for self defense.

So allowing everyone to freely obtain a gun without infringing their rights for self defence is an utter load of bollox, and you've just confirmed it.

That is incorrect. Some Americans do choose to have guns for self defense.

Nothing that he said confirms the opposite.

But to have a debate, you have to get beyond the Rinse, Wash, Repeat statements. So forget the 2A, we all know it's there, it's discussing the topic beyond that. I would say gun nuts won't/don't because they know their argument is weak to piss poor.

No. It's only the Freedom Haters who have bad arguments.

 

[Open Bolt]

The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact.

The Second Amendment causes no harm to the American people.

Right now the 2A is being leveraged well beyond it's rational original intent.

That is incorrect. Currently it is barely being enforced at all.

The original intent of the Second Amendment is that the American people have weapons like grenades, bazookas, and full-auto weapons.

The Heller ruling only gives us semi-autos with large magazines.

America has the highest gun ownership rate of any developed nation on earth and we have along with it the highest gun homicide rate.

So what? Who cares whether a murder victim is killed with a gun versus killed with some other sort of weapon?

At some point we need to re-equilibrate our "rights" when countless thousands die every year.

No we don't.

Even if our rights did increase the number of homicides, freedom would be more important than saving lives.

And as it happens, our rights have no impact on the number of homicides. Homicide victims are just as dead no matter what kind of weapon is used to kill them.

The Constitution was NOT written by God in stone. It has, built into it, the ability to change or alter its content.
THAT'S the true power of the Constitution.

True. If you want to amend the Constitution to abolish freedom in America, you have the right to try to do that.

How about one that simply clarifies some limitations on the second?

No. The Second Amendment is fine as it is. The meaning is already clear.

The only people who pretend that it isn't clear are those who want to violate what it says.

But again, that's laughable. America has the highest gun homicide rate of any developed first world nation by far! Sometimes orders of magnitude higher.
If this argument of More Guns = Less Murder held ANY water it would mean that Japan and Belgium and the UK would be piled high with corpses. It's absurd on its face.

He was not arguing that guns reduce murders. He was pointing out that guns do not increase murders.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

The Second Amendment causes no harm to the American people.

The way Americans act with it would indicate otherwise. Certainly the SCIENCE disagrees with you.

That is incorrect. Currently it is barely being enforced at all.

Oh, wah, wah, wah. You gun fetishists always scream and moan about your 2A rights as if ANYONE is really doing anything against you. LOL.

If you guys are that scared all the time over nothing, imagine how many bodies you'll have to drop when something scary DOES happen.

The original intent of the Second Amendment is that the American people have weapons like grenades, bazookas, and full-auto weapons.

Well, I can understand that. Which is why the blather about the 2A is a joke because even YOU 2A fetishists understand that there are RATIONAL LIMITS. You just like to have the NRA push it to the point that we are over the line.

So what? Who cares whether a murder victim is killed with a gun versus killed with some other sort of weapon?

Oh so you don't know anything about guns? Well, let me inform you: guns are exceptionally efficient killing machines that can act a LONG DISTANCES. This is why mass shooters, drug gangs and "evil doers of all sorts" USE GUNS.

Even if our rights did increase the number of homicides, freedom would be more important than saving lives.

That's truly psychopathic.

The only people who pretend that it isn't clear are those who want to violate what it says.

Don't forget Supreme Court Justices. But I'm sure you think they don't know what they are talking about in relation to the Constitution either.

LOL.

 

[JoeBlow]

RIP over 30,000 people who die by guns in USA every year.

Weapons are of little use except murder and suicide.

What about protecting your stash?

 

[koshergrl]

RIP over 30,000 people who die by guns in USA every year.

Weapons are of little use except murder and suicide.

Most of whom die at the hands of criminals who don't give two shits for gun laws.
And that number doesn't seem real.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Most of whom die at the hands of criminals who don't give two shits for gun laws.

Where do you think the evil doers get their guns?

If you have a nation in which there are sufficient guns in circulation such that every man, woman and child could have one it means that there is a much higher probability that guns will be stolen or misplaced or otherwise get into the hands of people who want to do harm.

This is why the sheer number of guns in our society becomes a problem. MORE GUNS = higher probability of guns making it into the hands of those who wish to do harm.

As for people being able to defend themselves: well that's a noble ideal and certainly one that would be nice. But the fact of the matter is study after study after study shows that guns kept in the home are far more likely to be used against people in that same home (murders, suicides, etc.) and few guns are actually utilized in terms of "self defense"


From THIS SOURCE:
9-10. Few criminals are shot by decent law-abiding citizens

Using data from surveys of detainees in six jails from around the nation, we worked with a prison physician to determine whether criminals seek hospital medical care when they are shot. Criminals almost always go to the hospital when they are shot. To believe fully the claims of millions of self-defense gun uses each year would mean believing that decent law-abiding citizens shot hundreds of thousands of criminals. But the data from emergency departments belie this claim, unless hundreds of thousands of wounded criminals are afraid to seek medical care. But virtually all criminals who have been shot went to the hospital, and can describe in detail what happened there.

May, John P; Hemenway, David. Oen, Roger; Pitts, Khalid R. Medical Care Solicitation by Criminals with Gunshot Wound Injuries: A Survey of Washington DC Jail Detainees. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 48:130-132.

May, John P; Hemenway, David. Do Criminals Go to the Hospital When They are Shot? Injury Prevention. 2002; 8:236-238.



11. Self-defense gun use is rare and not more effective at preventing injury than other protective actions

Victims use guns in less than 1% of contact crimes, and women never use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault (in more than 300 cases). Victims using a gun were no less likely to be injured after taking protective action than victims using other forms of protective action. Compared to other protective actions, the National Crime Victimization Surveys provide little evidence that self-defense gun use is uniquely beneficial in reducing the likelihood of injury or property loss.

This article helps provide accurate information concerning self-defense gun use. It shows that many of the claims about the benefits of gun ownership are largely myths.

Hemenway D, Solnick SJ. The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007-2011. Preventive Medicine. 2015; 79: 22-27.