Do Muslims believe in the separation of Church and State?

[JQPublic1]

From what I know of Islam, there does not seem to be a discernible secular component to it at all.
In a brief search for the answer to that question I have come across varied Muslim offerings on the matter.

The "No's"

Dr. Ja`far Sheikh Idris at Islaam.com posits:

"So how are Muslims to approach the modern trend of separation of religion and state? The basic belief in Islam is that the Qur’an is one hundred percent the word of Allah, and the Sunna was also as a result of the guidance of Allah to the Prophet sallallahu allayhe wasalam. Islam cannot be separated from the state because it guides us through every detail of running the state and our lives. Muslims have no choice but to reject secularism for it excludes the law of Allah."

Does that sound ominous?Hold on, Dr. Idris attempt to put us at ease with:

"What needs to be pointed out is that under the law of Islam, other religions are not prohibited. At the same time, people are provided with doctrines for legislation and running of state that will protect people of all faiths living in the state."

OK, I feel much better now knowing that not all Muslims are out to convert or kill all people of other faiths. Hopefully this revelation by Idris is not some form of Taqiyya.. The recent story of Muslims protecting Christians in Kenya lends some credence to his words.

Continuing with more excerpts from Dr. Idris's narrative:

"Secularists in the West will agree with this, then they will point out that under Islamic law, people are not all equal. No non-Muslim, for example, could become the president. Well, in response to that fact, in turn, secularism is no different. No Muslim could become president in a secular regime, for in order to pledge loyalty to the constitution, a Muslim would have to abandon part of his belief and embrace the belief of secularism — which is practically another religion. For Muslims, the word ‘religion’ does not only refer to a collection of beliefs and rituals, it refers to a way of life which includes all values, behaviours, and details of living."

There it is. Dr. Idris, has put it succinctly and convincingly: The Separation of Church and State is not an option for Muslims. He is joined in that opinion by

Jamil Hamami:


Jamil Hamami, a Hamas leader and lecturer at Al Quds University, in a May 29, 1999 seminar posted on the Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs (PASSIA) website titled "Political Islam in the Arab World," wrote:

"Some people think that talking about political Islam implies that there is a separation between religion and state. An in-depth look at the way and spirit of Islam would show that this is not true. Islam is state, religion and a way of life -- which includes all aspects of the daily life of the Muslim -- combined."



May 29, 1999 - Jamil Hamami

Is Islam Compatible with the Concept of the Separation of Religion and State? - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

The Yes men....to be continued......

 

[JQPublic1]

The Yes men:

Nazih N. M. Ayubi, PhD, the late Professor of Political Science at University of California, Los Angeles, in a 1980 International Journal of Middle East Studies article titled "The political Revival of Islam: The Case of Egypt," stated the following:

"To start with, it should be remembered that Islam is an all-encompassing belief system that involves matters of man's relationship to God ('Ibadat) as well as his relationship to his fellow men (Mu'amalat). It follows from this that there is no dichotomy in Islam between religious and civil matters. It is inaccurate, however, to say that in Islam there is no separation between state and church, since Islam - at least Sunni (Orthodox) Islam - has no 'church' in the sence of a formal ecclesiastical hierarchy. Even in Shi'ite Islam, which has more of a clerical elite, no claim has ever been made by the Ulama (religious scholars) to assume government directly by themselves."

Alfred Stepan, PhD, Wallace Sayre Professor of Government at Columbia University, in a 2000 Journal of Democracy article titled "Religion, Democracy, and the 'Twin Tolerations,'" stated the following:

"Although Islamic fundamentalists are attempting to appropriate political Islam, there are also other voices--in the Koran, in scholarly interpretations of the Koran, and among some major contemporary Islamic political leaders. For example, Sura (verse) 256 of the Koran states that 'There shall be no compulsion in Religion.' This injunction provides a strong Koranic base for religious tolerance... moreover, political activists, journalists, and even professors sometimes misleadingly equate Islam with Arab culture. They then assert correctly that there are no democracies in the Islamic countries of the Arab world, leaving the false impression there are no Muslims living under democratic regimes. In fact, however, a case can be made that about half of all the world's Muslims, 435 million people (or over 600 million, if we include Indonesia), live in democracies, near-democracies, or intermittent democracies."


Perhaps this is the one barometer with which we should measure those Muslims who are fit for immigration to these shores. If they are pro Separation of Church and State, that is one positive sign that lessens the possibility of harboring Jihadist ideology.

 

[Two Thumbs]

They make it really clear in their actions.

they are either under a king
a ruthless dictator
or they can elect a person that the mullahs picked

and good luck observing another religion or getting a fair trial if you aren't.

 

[Spinster]

Are you kidding?? The only thing they understand is indoctrination. Separation of religion and stste is far too difficult/foreign a policy for them to comprehend.

 

[JQPublic1]

They make it really clear in their actions.

they are either under a king
a ruthless dictator
or they can elect a person that the mullahs picked

and good luck observing another religion or getting a fair trial if you aren't.

OK but what about those coming here? Don't they have to pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA and the Republic for which it stands? If you look at the Nos, Muslims who believe as they do cannot take the oath.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

A better question is how many religious people of any faiths respect the separation of church and state?

 

[JQPublic1]

Are you kidding?? The only thing they understand is indoctrination. Separation of religion and stste is far too difficult/foreign a policy for them to comprehend.

See post #5.

 

[JQPublic1]

A better question is how many religious people of any faiths respect the separation of church and state?

That is a fair question... got an answer?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

A better question is how many religious people of any faiths respect the separation of church and state?

That is a fair question... got an answer?

...no...

 

[frigidweirdo]

It seems, based on this forum at the very least, that most religious people don't particularly like the separation of church and state.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"Do Muslims believe in the separation of Church and State?"

Many Christians are opposed to the Framers' mandate that church and state remain separate.

'Muslims' do not think, believe, or act as a single entity, to maintain otherwise fails as a composition fallacy.

Muslims are no better or worse than anyone else – there are Muslims who correctly understand that the First Amendment prohibits conjoining church and state, and there are likely some who don't; and those Muslims are just as wrong as Christians and Jews hostile to First Amendment jurisprudence.

 

[Dhara]

Another Muslim bash thread. Yawn.

 

[JQPublic1]

A better question is how many religious people of any faiths respect the separation of church and state?

That is a fair question... got an answer?

...no...

So you are in agreement with Dr. Idris who says Muslims cannot conjoin SOCAS
and ISLAM...Ok, well noted...

 

[JQPublic1]

Another Muslim bash thread. Yawn.

Not at all. I have presented arguments from Muslims only. There appears to be two schools off Muslim thought on the issue... Read the op.

 

[Dhara]

It's a bash thread.

 

[JQPublic1]

"Do Muslims believe in the separation of Church and State?"

Many Christians are opposed to the Framers' mandate that church and state remain separate.

'Muslims' do not think, believe, or act as a single entity, to maintain otherwise fails as a composition fallacy.

Muslims are no better or worse than anyone else – there are Muslims who correctly understand that the First Amendment prohibits conjoining church and state, and there are likely some who don't; and those Muslims are just as wrong as Christians and Jews hostile to First Amendment jurisprudence.

I have been objective here. I posted opinions from several erudite Muslim authorities with opposing views. Those who agree with you are listed under the Yes heading. Did they express their views to your satisfaction? I am still trying to decide which side I believe the most.

 

[JQPublic1]

It's a bash thread.

In what way? I am only seeking knowledge... However, I guess it is true that I am i more wary of Muslim immigrants who do not believe in SOCAS and are unwilling to pledge allegiance to the flag and the Republic for which it stands.

 

[Dhara]

I'm more interested in whether Christians believe in separation of church and state in America. Whether they do or don't is more important because of their numbers and influence in our country.

I don't buy your claim to only be seeking knowledge. If that were the case you'd be talking to Muslims instead of reading whatever backs your bias against them.

 

[JQPublic1]

I'm more interested in whether Christians believe in separation of church and state in America. Whether they do or don't is more important because of their numbers and influence in our country.

I don't buy your claim to only be seeking knowledge. If that were the case you'd be talking to Muslims instead of reading whatever backs your bias against them.

Presently, Christian extremists do not present a viable threat to our national security. I think we both can agree that Islamic extremists here and abroad do represent a viable terrorist threat. We cannot readily tell by looking at Muslims whether they are good or bad. If we do not address that reality we are inviting disaster. Given the views of Dr. Idris prefacing the op, I wondered how those who believed as he does ever become citizens of the USA. Obviously according to Idris, the doctrine of SOCAS is anathema to the ISLAMIC faith. Therefore when the pledge of allegiance is administered, how do Muslims like Idris get around it?Do you think the pledge should NOT be given to Muslim immigrants as a condition for citizenship?

 

[ninja007]

in islam religion is state you fucking idiot.