Do Natural Rights Exist Without Government ?

[dilloduck]

In order to learn something new you need an open mind. You actually don't even have a defense of your position that is based on anything other than the belief that you are right, which is not how people with open minds actually argue.

My mind is still open and waiting to hear which natural right was not something that man decided was important to protect.

You just said they were cherry picked. How do you pick something that isn't real?

Simple----you choose a behavior and claim it to be natural and worthy of government protection.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I understand what you are saying. Its is just another example of how much thought went into this. My problem is with the assertion that this concept is actually correct. Where is the proof that these natural "rights" actually exist? It is totally unprovable and the evidence leans more to the side that they do not exist and have to be granted and protected by the government which is what this thread is about. It reminds me of the Papal Bull Dum Diversas in 1452 where the pope decreed Christians had a god given right to enslave people. How do you prove something like that?

Where is the evidence that they don't? How do you explain free will in the absence of rights?

Easy--we are free to do whatever we want. We don't need a license or permit.

We don't need government approval?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Thank you. I was hoping this is what you meant. Basically what you are telling me is that humans have natural rights because you or somebody else said so? Is this a correct assumption?

You dont have a right to life. I can kill you.
You dont have a right to liberty. I can imprison you.
You dont have a right to property private or otherwise. I can take it.

What natural rights do you have without the government there to protect you against someone bigger and stronger than you?

As usual, you are confused, and wrong. The fact that people die, even at the hands of others, is not ipso facto evidence that the right to life does not exist. You really should go back and read the thread so you don't repeat the same mistakes other people have made. Alternately, you could arrogantly presume that you are the smartest person ever and pretend that all of your arguments are original.

As usual you are deflecting from your inability to provide proof beyond the fact someone had a theory a long time ago. You keep making the same mistake in thinking your BS is actually convincing anyone you know anything at all about what you say. Show me where natural rights exist Quantum. Your theories nor anyone elses theories suffice as evidence. I want proof.

Yes, because pointing out that you are wrong is simply me deflecting from the fact that I am right.

 

[Asclepias]

I talk about aliens because I enjoy mocking absurd theories.

Like the theory of natural rights ?

If it was absurd you would be able to mock it, all you have been able to do is argue that it isn't real because you don't believe in it.

You are doing the exact same thing however, you dont have a shred of evidence. At least it can be said the evidence leans heavily to the side that natural rights are just a manmade construct and not floating in the air existing without humans.

 

[dilloduck]

Where is the evidence that they don't? How do you explain free will in the absence of rights?

Easy--we are free to do whatever we want. We don't need a license or permit.

We don't need government approval?

of course not---why would we ?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Yes---chosen and prioritized by a few elite who have decided that they just know better.

Know better than what?

than other people I guess-----an Arab might think that owning a herd of camels and a harem was his natural right

How would he be wrong?

 

[dilloduck]

I talk about aliens because I enjoy mocking absurd theories.

Like the theory of natural rights ?

If it was absurd you would be able to mock it, all you have been able to do is argue that it isn't real because you don't believe in it.

Oh it's easy to mock it----my favorite is still claiming they exist because the government made a law about them.

 

[dilloduck]

Know better than what?

than other people I guess-----an Arab might think that owning a herd of camels and a harem was his natural right

How would he be wrong?

My point exactly---we are free to think and do whatever we want. I don't need someone to come up with a list of so called natural rights for me when I already have the freedom to do whatever I want.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm sorely disappointed. I really thought I was going to learn something new. I should have known when Quantum starting talking about aliens and MD started writing dissertations. Well you know what they say.

In order to learn something new you need an open mind. You actually don't even have a defense of your position that is based on anything other than the belief that you are right, which is not how people with open minds actually argue.

I dont really have to defend anything at all to have an open mind. I am sitting here open to you proving natural rights (which is an oxymoron) exist without man. Please teach me by showing me proof. Theories dont count.

You claim that your disbelief in natural rights, even though you have absolutely no evidence to back up that belief, is proof they don't exist. You then demand that I overcome your unwillingness to accept the evidence by insisting that I prove that natural rights exist in three sentences or less. The fact that you are totally unwilling to go back and read the previous arguments, or even the arguments that are repeated upon demand, is all the evidence I need to prove your mind is closed.

Feel free to prove me wrong my actually addressing the arguments laid out in defense of natural rights, and laying out all your evidence to the contrary.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

My mind is still open and waiting to hear which natural right was not something that man decided was important to protect.

You just said they were cherry picked. How do you pick something that isn't real?

Simple----you choose a behavior and claim it to be natural and worthy of government protection.

Does that mean behavior is not real in your universe?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Like the theory of natural rights ?

If it was absurd you would be able to mock it, all you have been able to do is argue that it isn't real because you don't believe in it.

You are doing the exact same thing however, you dont have a shred of evidence. At least it can be said the evidence leans heavily to the side that natural rights are just a manmade construct and not floating in the air existing without humans.

I don't need evidence that aliens didn't build the pyramids.

 

[Asclepias]

than other people I guess-----an Arab might think that owning a herd of camels and a harem was his natural right

How would he be wrong?

My point exactly---we are free to think and do whatever we want. I don't need someone to come up with a list of so called natural rights for me when I already have the freedom to do whatever I want.

Just in case Quantum misses it I now grant you the right to have freedom of choice.

 

[dilloduck]

You just said they were cherry picked. How do you pick something that isn't real?

Simple----you choose a behavior and claim it to be natural and worthy of government protection.

Does that mean behavior is not real in your universe?

you pick a behavior that is not a real natural right and pretend it to be so

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Easy--we are free to do whatever we want. We don't need a license or permit.

We don't need government approval?

of course not---why would we ?

So, once again, you are arguing that rights exist without the government.

Yet you are still arguing with me because I insist they exist.

 

[dilloduck]

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Like the theory of natural rights ?

If it was absurd you would be able to mock it, all you have been able to do is argue that it isn't real because you don't believe in it.

Oh it's easy to mock it----my favorite is still claiming they exist because the government made a law about them.

Then it is a good thing I never said that, isn't it?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

How would he be wrong?

My point exactly---we are free to think and do whatever we want. I don't need someone to come up with a list of so called natural rights for me when I already have the freedom to do whatever I want.

Just in case Quantum misses it I now grant you the right to have freedom of choice.

Just in case you missed it, he had that right before you granted. In other words, you are not the source of that right, neither is the government.

 

[dilloduck]

We don't need government approval?

of course not---why would we ?

So, once again, you are arguing that rights exist without the government.

Yet you are still arguing with me because I insist they exist without government.

you claim that there are natural right that exist without the government-----my claim is that there are no natural rights period. We are simple free to do whatever we wish. Nothing more need be said.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Simple----you choose a behavior and claim it to be natural and worthy of government protection.

Does that mean behavior is not real in your universe?

you pick a behavior that is not a real natural right and pretend it to be so

I am sure you have examples, I know I do. That doesn't change the fact that some rights are actually real.

 

[Asclepias]

In order to learn something new you need an open mind. You actually don't even have a defense of your position that is based on anything other than the belief that you are right, which is not how people with open minds actually argue.

I dont really have to defend anything at all to have an open mind. I am sitting here open to you proving natural rights (which is an oxymoron) exist without man. Please teach me by showing me proof. Theories dont count.

You claim that your disbelief in natural rights, even though you have absolutely no evidence to back up that belief, is proof they don't exist. You then demand that I overcome your unwillingness to accept the evidence by insisting that I prove that natural rights exist in three sentences or less. The fact that you are totally unwilling to go back and read the previous arguments, or even the arguments that are repeated upon demand, is all the evidence I need to prove your mind is closed.

Feel free to prove me wrong my actually addressing the arguments laid out in defense of natural rights, and laying out all your evidence to the contrary.

Sorry but I do have evidence. Natural means not man made. Case closed. You have presented no evidence. You can expound theories all day long but that doesn't make them facts just because you believe them to be. stop stalling and provide me proof of a right that exists without man saying it does.