Do the rich earn their income?

[Full-Auto]

You know what the problem is...

. there is a total disconnect here.

No one gives a shit how much money another person makes. Not ONE OF US. All we ask is that if you love the "Free Market" and "Competition", you would make more of an effort to support that ideology and the idea that Community is just as important as personal wealth. You are greedy fucks that make themselves feel OK with what you have accumulated by tithing to your church.

BTW... if Christ was here... he'd spit in your faces.

Seriously? Possibly you would, but Christ? No

He fears his government check will come to an end.

 

[syrenn]

You know what the problem is...

. there is a total disconnect here.

No one gives a shit how much money another person makes. Not ONE OF US. All we ask is that if you love the "Free Market" and "Competition", you would make more of an effort to support that ideology and the idea that Community is just as important as personal wealth. You are greedy fucks that make themselves feel OK with what you have accumulated by tithing to your church.

BTW... if Christ was here... he'd spit in your faces.

No? Funny that...

Then why the hell is everyone worried about what money is left to others and if they "earned/deserve" it or not?

Why is everyone wanting to tax the "rich" more to get more of what the "rich" have?


No christ would not spit in anyone's face.... but good to know you think he would.

 

[Steelplate]

You know what the problem is...

. there is a total disconnect here.

No one gives a shit how much money another person makes. Not ONE OF US. All we ask is that if you love the "Free Market" and "Competition", you would make more of an effort to support that ideology and the idea that Community is just as important as personal wealth. You are greedy fucks that make themselves feel OK with what you have accumulated by tithing to your church.

BTW... if Christ was here... he'd spit in your faces.

Seriously? Possibly you would, but Christ? No

Let's see... which side runs on a Christ-like platform(Perry, Bachmann, Palin, etc.) talking about their religion and suckering the Fundies in, then in the next breath talks about killing plans that our own people have paid into, programs that help the poor, cutting education, Privatizing prisons.

Yeah... I think he would treat them in a similar fashion as he did the moneychangers in the temple.

 

[Sundial]

So you lowered your intelect down to a cartoon? I see.....

Dilbert, a cartoon?

What is the Great Wall, a pile of bricks?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Dilbert, a cartoon?

What is the Great Wall, a pile of bricks?

Do you comprehend that Scott Adams is a die hard conservative Libertarian?

Tell you what, you don't pretend that Dilbert supports your idiocy, and I won't pretend that "Tom Tomorrow" supports capitalism (or is funny, witty, poignant or meaningful.....)

 

[Steelplate]

You know what the problem is...

. there is a total disconnect here.

No one gives a shit how much money another person makes. Not ONE OF US. All we ask is that if you love the "Free Market" and "Competition", you would make more of an effort to support that ideology and the idea that Community is just as important as personal wealth. You are greedy fucks that make themselves feel OK with what you have accumulated by tithing to your church.

BTW... if Christ was here... he'd spit in your faces.

The idea that you support the free market doesn't pass the laugh test.

You don't even know what it is.

Furthermore, "the community" and the government are two entirely separate things. Sending money to Washington isn't supporting "the community."

I'll tell you what it isn't.... It isn't the Competition squashing Giant Conglomerate system we have now... Teddy Roosevelt is probably rolling over in his grave with the amount of Monopolistic entities out there.

Maybe not... but Companies screwing over United States Citizens for slave labor isn't supporting the Community either... Neither is sitting on over $2T dollars when there's a job crisis... Neither is overcharging for necessities and bragging about $30 DVD players that no one needs.

But that stuff's OK... because SOMEONE is making money off of it... but that's not enough for them is it... no... Wall Street wants its grubby little hands on our SS, Private Insurance Companies want their Grubby little hands on Grandma's fixed income, Private Schools want their grubby little hands on Parent's money, and Private Security Firms want their grubby little hands on the Prison System.

All so they can put a layer of profit between The people's money and the services rendered... oh yeah.... and Low ball the wages of people, which is par for the course...after all, that's what this is all about, isn't it? To keep going on a downward spiral? to force people to work harder for less money? So that those that already have... have more?

 

[Sundial]

One of those root causes is the failure to distinguish between the source of wealth (work) and its destination (income). In other words, the difference between producing and consuming. Many conservatives seem to feel goods and services are produced by money.

I addressed this several times and you've not responded. I'm not sure if you're just ignoring the point, or if I'm simply not being clear. To recap, investors make money by wisely allocating resources. That's one of the most important functions of any economy, not just a free market.

I agree with you 100%. Efficiently and wisely allocating resources is extremely important.

In terms of this thread, my response is, the richest of the rich do not spend their time allocating resources. They hire other people to do that for them.

I guess deciding who you want to hire to do your work is kind of sort of like work. But I mean, once you've hired Blackstone Capital (or whoever) how much work is involved after that?

Off the topic of this thread, my response is that whoever is allocating capital around here seems to be fucking it up. The financial crisis is a giant cluster-fuck of misallocated capital, and a great example of how important it is to get the job done right. But the people who fucked it up don't seem to be bearing the losses. Instead, the losses seem to be "allocated" to the rest of us.

 

[Sundial]

I went to school with two kids who's dad had a contract with the city with his business which was trash collecting. The father died of cancer and the two kids took it over. They ended up with contracts with 3/4 of the cities in the county. They worked their ass of for that business.

The people who "work their asses off" collecting trash = the people I'm not talking about.

 

[Meister]

I went to school with two kids who's dad had a contract with the city with his business which was trash collecting. The father died of cancer and the two kids took it over. They ended up with contracts with 3/4 of the cities in the county. They worked their ass of for that business.

The people who "work their asses off" collecting trash = the people I'm not talking about.

but, but....they were born into wealth, they don't deserve to be wealthy because of their father....right?

 

[Sundial]

The wealthy I know earned their money by working, risked their money by investing in others and by doing so with the money they earned and risked put millions of Americans to work so that they too have the opportunity to succeed.

Here's some people I know (of):

Samual Israel: $450 million, 20 years
Marc Dreier: $700 million, 20 years
Kenneth Lay: $1 billion, died before trial
Scott Rothstein: $1 billion, pending
Richard Scrushy: $2.87 billion, six years and 10 months
Tom Petters: $3.65 billion, pending
Allen Stanford: $7 billion, pending
Jérôme Kerviel: $7.36 billion, pending
Bernie Ebbers: $11 billion, 25 years
Bernie Madoff: $65 billion, 150 years

Behind every great fortune there is a great crime.
--Honore de Balzac

 

[dblack]

I agree with you 100%. Efficiently and wisely allocating resources is extremely important.

In terms of this thread, my response is, the richest of the rich do not spend their time allocating resources. They hire other people to do that for them.

I guess deciding who you want to hire to do your work is kind of sort of like work. But I mean, once you've hired Blackstone Capital (or whoever) how much work is involved after that?

Right. They either do it themselves, or hire someone else to do it (in exchange for less return on their investments). In either case, if it's done well, they are rewarded (even if it's just for making a good choice of investment advisors) and if the choose poorly, they lose.

Unless ...

Off the topic of this thread, my response is that whoever is allocating capital around here seems to be fucking it up. The financial crisis is a giant cluster-fuck of misallocated capital, and a great example of how important it is to get the job done right. But the people who fucked it up don't seem to be bearing the losses. Instead, the losses seem to be "allocated" to the rest of us.

.... and THAT's what is wrong with the system. It's not that investment income is 'money for nothing' (in fact, that's a disingenuous description). The problem is that we don't allow them to fail, which means they'll keep their money and go on to make even more bad investment decisions over and over again. This, combined with our byzantine tax code, makes the game truly rigged in favor of established wealth.

An old adage about democracy and the welfare state goes something like:

A democracy will continue to exist up until the voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.

The irony is, that quote is usually used to invoke images of the poor demanding a free ride, but the rich have learned to play the same game - with bigger numbers.

 

[Sundial]

Dilbert, a cartoon?

What is the Great Wall, a pile of bricks?

Do you comprehend that Scott Adams is a die hard conservative Libertarian?

Tell you what, you don't pretend that Dilbert supports your idiocy, and I won't pretend that "Tom Tomorrow" supports capitalism (or is funny, witty, poignant or meaningful.....)

Go here: The official Dilbert website with Scott Adams' color comic strips, animation, mashups and more!

Read any hundred strips, in any order, and tell me Dilbert isn't a critic of capitalism.

I dare you.

 

[dblack]

Read any hundred strips, in any order, and tell me Dilbert isn't a critic of capitalism.

I dare you.

Dare accepted! Except, I've already read at least that many. Adams is a critic of stupidity, of which there is plenty in modern capitalism.

 

[Sundial]

I went to school with two kids who's dad had a contract with the city with his business which was trash collecting. The father died of cancer and the two kids took it over. They ended up with contracts with 3/4 of the cities in the county. They worked their ass of for that business.

The people who "work their asses off" collecting trash = the people I'm not talking about.

but, but....they were born into wealth, they don't deserve to be wealthy because of their father....right?

People who work their asses off collecting trash - or running a trash collection business - are working people who have earned income.

The people I'm talking about are people who're 1.) extremely rich, and 2.) so rich they don't have to work, and 3.) their income (I'm arguing) comes from unearned sources, like interest and capital gains.

I'm not talking about small business people. In fact, I hereby affirm and concede that the people who run small businesses are 1.) hard workers who contribute significantly to the economy, 2.) have earned (not unearned) income, and 3.) are not the people I'm talking about.

 

[Wicked Jester]

The people who "work their asses off" collecting trash = the people I'm not talking about.

but, but....they were born into wealth, they don't deserve to be wealthy because of their father....right?

People who work their asses off collecting trash - or running a trash collection business - are working people who have earned income.

The people I'm talking about are people who're 1.) extremely rich, and 2.) so rich they don't have to work, and 3.) their income (I'm arguing) comes from unearned sources, like interest and capital gains.

I'm not talking about small business people. In fact, I hereby affirm and concede that the people who run small businesses are 1.) hard workers who contribute significantly to the economy, 2.) have earned (not unearned) income, and 3.) are not the people I'm talking about.

Sooooooo, what's the problem with people who are "extremely rich".........Big deal, it's their money, and they pay taxes on it. They pay taxes on their property. They pay sales tax etc.

What about those who are so rich they don't have work?......Big deal, see above.

Interest is "unearned'?.........Capital Gains is "unearned"?

Interesting.

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

The people who "work their asses off" collecting trash = the people I'm not talking about.

but, but....they were born into wealth, they don't deserve to be wealthy because of their father....right?

People who work their asses off collecting trash - or running a trash collection business - are working people who have earned income.

The people I'm talking about are people who're 1.) extremely rich, and 2.) so rich they don't have to work, and 3.) their income (I'm arguing) comes from unearned sources, like interest and capital gains.

I'm not talking about small business people. In fact, I hereby affirm and concede that the people who run small businesses are 1.) hard workers who contribute significantly to the economy, 2.) have earned (not unearned) income, and 3.) are not the people I'm talking about.

Why is it any of your fucking biznez how someone spends or obtained their money?? I don't recall anyone naming you king of America?! I'm so sick of people like you and your obsession with other people's money. GET A FUCKING LIFE and mind your own damn business.

 

[MikeK]

Why is it any of your fucking biznez how someone spends or obtained their money?? I don't recall anyone naming you king of America?! I'm so sick of people like you and your obsession with other people's money. GET A FUCKING LIFE and mind your own damn business.

Do you believe that women who work for an hourly wage should be paid the same hourly rate as their male co-workers who do the same job?

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

Why is it any of your fucking biznez how someone spends or obtained their money?? I don't recall anyone naming you king of America?! I'm so sick of people like you and your obsession with other people's money. GET A FUCKING LIFE and mind your own damn business.

Do you believe that women who work for an hourly wage should be paid the same hourly rate as their male co-workers who do the same job?

What kind of a dumbazz question is that and what does equal pay have to do with leftist dirtbags being obsessed with other people's money??

 

[dblack]

Interest is "unearned'?.........Capital Gains is "unearned"?

There's lot of equivocation in this thread around the term 'unearned'. The goal seems to be to establish investment income as 'undeserved', or income that is generated without providing any benefit to society. I think I've shown how that position is incorrect, but various technical definitions do (depending on the context) label investment income as 'unearned'.

We should probably avoid the obviously overloaded terms and simply say what we mean. To me, the relevant question is, do investors provide a genuine service to society? Or are they just on the gravy train, getting income purely by virtue of existing wealth?

 

[Wicked Jester]

Why is it any of your fucking biznez how someone spends or obtained their money?? I don't recall anyone naming you king of America?! I'm so sick of people like you and your obsession with other people's money. GET A FUCKING LIFE and mind your own damn business.

Do you believe that women who work for an hourly wage should be paid the same hourly rate as their male co-workers who do the same job?

And what the fuck does that have to do with price o' rice in China, or her point?