Do the rich earn their income?

[Sundial]

You're assuming the rich are managing their own funds. Ordinary people who might have some money might be doing that. But the richest of the rich are not.

Not at all. I'd assume the opposite in most cases. Effective delegation is an extremely important skill for any sane human being.

Nobody's disputing that running a business or managing active investments isn't work. I'm saying the richest of the rich are not doing that.

They're either doing it, delegating it effectively - or they're losing their money. And in the latter case, they won't stay wealthy for long.

In any case someone must do it. If you don't like the fact that, in the current system, individual owners of capital are making those decisions, what are you suggesting replacing it with? This is the question I never really find socialists willing to address. Do you really think the state can make resource allocation decisions as well as a distributed networked of motivated investors?

First of all, I'm not a socialist. I'm a liberal Democrat. There's a difference. One of them being we don't advocate socialism. (We do advocate taxing the rich, but that's another story.)

Here's the thing. Conservatives have a sickness. Many of their positions are symptoms of the sickness, but you don't cure a disease by treating the symptoms. You have to go at root causes.

One of those root causes is the failure to distinguish between the source of wealth (work) and its destination (income). In other words, the difference between producing and consuming. Many conservatives seem to feel goods and services are produced by money.

The point is, having an income - even a gargantuan one - does not, in and of itself, mean you're contributing anything.

Not that there's anything wrong with being part of the leisure class.

But if you are, you should pay your taxes and be grateful you're not someone who has to work longer, harder hours, at shittier jobs, for less pay, in order to make your lifestyle possible.

Anyway. I could make a smart remark about "effective delegation," but since I'm not actually advocating socialism - though the scheduled expiration of the supposedly temporary Bush tax cuts would be a good idea - I'll refrain.

 

[MikeK]

Class envy is just classless. Let me know when born into wealth is a crime, okay?

The concept of "class envy" is visibly nonsensical. There always has been a wealthy class in America but resentment of their excess only becomes an issue during such times as the Great Depression -- which was brought about by the devious maneuverings of the rich and their political cronies -- and the present economic crisis. During times of relative economic stability and universal comfort nobody pays attention to the rich.

So it's not "class envy" we are seeing and hearing," it's legitimate resentment of the same excesses brought about by corrupt maneuvering and manipulation.

You can spin it what ever way you want until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, it's still class envy.

If believing that makes you feel better I have no problem with it. But I urge you to give some thought to why the rich are an obscure and unnoticed entity during economically healthy times.


"It often takes a great deal of intelligence to see that which is right before our eyes." (Edmond Duranty)

 

[Sallow]

I missed that post by Sundial due to so much right wing drivel,

Small businesses are responsible for most employment, not large corporations who benefit from a large government, you douchebag.

Um..

I think he's on your side.

Calm down there skippy.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Rich? What Rich? Pretty hard to get rich in this awful Obama Depression. You might be better off heading to Mexico to seek your fortune. Their Unemployment Rate is now half of what ours is. They're at 4.5% while we're at 9.1%. And they don't have nearly the staggering Debt we have. The only ones getting rich in this Obama Depression are Obama,Jeffrey Immelt & GE. What a nightmare.

 

[Sallow]

Rich? What Rich? Pretty hard to get rich in this awful Obama Depression. You might be better off heading to Mexico to seek your fortune. Their Unemployment Rate is now half of what ours is. They're at 4.5% while we're at 9.1%. And they don't have nearly the staggering Debt we have. The only ones getting rich in this Obama Depression are Obama,Jeffrey Immelt & GE. What a nightmare.

Don't kid yourself, Daddy Warbucks. Plently of fat cats cashing in on this ride.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Rich? What Rich? Pretty hard to get rich in this awful Obama Depression. You might be better off heading to Mexico to seek your fortune. Their Unemployment Rate is now half of what ours is. They're at 4.5% while we're at 9.1%. And they don't have nearly the staggering Debt we have. The only ones getting rich in this Obama Depression are Obama,Jeffrey Immelt & GE. What a nightmare.

Don't kid yourself, Daddy Warbucks. Plently of fat cats cashing in on this ride.

None more than Obama & GE CEO Jeffrey Immelt.

 

[Sallow]

Rich? What Rich? Pretty hard to get rich in this awful Obama Depression. You might be better off heading to Mexico to seek your fortune. Their Unemployment Rate is now half of what ours is. They're at 4.5% while we're at 9.1%. And they don't have nearly the staggering Debt we have. The only ones getting rich in this Obama Depression are Obama,Jeffrey Immelt & GE. What a nightmare.

Don't kid yourself, Daddy Warbucks. Plently of fat cats cashing in on this ride.

None more than Obama & GE CEO Jeffrey Immelt.

Doubtful.

They are under the microscope.

 

[Meister]

The concept of "class envy" is visibly nonsensical. There always has been a wealthy class in America but resentment of their excess only becomes an issue during such times as the Great Depression -- which was brought about by the devious maneuverings of the rich and their political cronies -- and the present economic crisis. During times of relative economic stability and universal comfort nobody pays attention to the rich.

So it's not "class envy" we are seeing and hearing," it's legitimate resentment of the same excesses brought about by corrupt maneuvering and manipulation.

You can spin it what ever way you want until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, it's still class envy.

If believing that makes you feel better I have no problem with it. But I urge you to give some thought to why the rich are an obscure and unnoticed entity during economically healthy times.


"It often takes a great deal of intelligence to see that which is right before our eyes." (Edmond Duranty)

The Clinton years were good times and they were going after the rich.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

And has Obama really earned his fortune? Get real.

 

[Full-Auto]

And has Obama really earned his fortune? Get real.

Didnt he make his fortune suing banks to give bad loans?

 

[dblack]

First of all, I'm not a socialist. I'm a liberal Democrat. There's a difference. One of them being we don't advocate socialism. (We do advocate taxing the rich, but that's another story.)

Fair enough. I certainly didn't mean it as an insult or the usual conservative 'knee-jerking'. Several of my good friends are avowed socialists and I consider it an ideology with many merits. What I find particularly poisonous though, is the polluted mixture of socialism and capitalism the plays out as authoritarian corporatism. We get just enough socialist policies (and our convoluted tax code is a prime example) to ensure the free market can't work, but the corporations still control everything. It's truly the worst of both worlds.

One of those root causes is the failure to distinguish between the source of wealth (work) and its destination (income). In other words, the difference between producing and consuming. Many conservatives seem to feel goods and services are produced by money.

I addressed this several times and you've not responded. I'm not sure if you're just ignoring the point, or if I'm simply not being clear. To recap, investors make money by wisely allocating resources. That's one of the most important functions of any economy, not just a free market.

Not that there's anything wrong with being part of the leisure class.

The leisure class? Which is that?

Anyway. I could make a smart remark about "effective delegation,"...

Please do. Smart remarks are always welcome. And all too rare.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's easy to score when you're born on third base and thought you hit a triple.

How would YOU know how "easy" it is? What was YOUR "third base" start, and how did YOU score from it?

Like inheriting a business somehow makes it immune to going belly-up just the same as one you started from scratch.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's easy to score when you're born on third base and thought you hit a triple.

Class envy is just classless. Let me know when born into wealth is a crime, okay?

It is unAmerican. America is supposed to reward wealth based on hard work and ingenuity. Unforuntately, you think that America is supposed to reward wealth based on luck and nepotism.

Why do you hate America?

First, no one said "America" is supposed to reward anything. Capitalism rewards hard work and ingenuity . . . sometimes. Other times, it doesn't work out. One of the rewards capitalism can bestow on those who work hard and are ingenious is the ability to provide a better life for their children. One of the ways people exercise that reward is through inheritance.

It is the American dream to be able to work hard, succeed through your own effort, and give your children a better start in life than you had. Why do YOU hate America?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Republicans = wealth comes from inheritance

Sane people = wealth comes from producing goods and services that people want.

If YOUR parents were good-for-nothing layabouts who didn't leave you a pot to piss in or a window to through it out of, that still doesn't mean only Republicans believe in being successful in order to leave something to your children.

Wealth comes from a lot of different sources in the real world, Sparky, and what's it to you if my parents worked hard and wanted to give me a head start in my own life instead of making me start working my way up from nothing?

 

[Meister]

So you lowered your intelect down to a cartoon? I see.....

Naw..he had to dumb it down so you could get it.

In any case..Dilbert is a step up for the likes of you, Curly!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y6YPjcQJ4g]‪The Three Stooges: Moe larry The Cheese. Limburger‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

Keep telling yourself that, Shallow.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Republicans = wealth comes from inheritance

Sane people = wealth comes from producing goods and services that people want.

Really?

Well, this republican and his wife started out with 10 grand, a personal bank loan, and a dream.........Turned it into a very successful entity that provided well paying jobs with very generous benefits for many employees through the years.......It's called personal responsibility and hard work. It's called contributing to society, and helping to make this great country run.

Yeah, our kids will inherit quite nicely. It's OUR money. It's THEIR money. It's not YOUR money. You did NOT earn it. You will NOT see a dime of it........But, our kids will. It's best you be nice to them. You just might be employed by them one day!

I don't want your money, grow the fuck up.

It is great that you had success at business. However, your kids did not have success at your business unless you employ them.

Unfortunately, this is not surprising. Republicans have a long history of supporting sweatshops.

His kids haven't had success in HIS business . . . yet. No one ever said his kids aren't out having their own business successes right now, or won't between now and when he and his wife pass (I have no idea how old Wicked's kids are). And apparently, you and your dimwitted compatriots seem to think that if his kids inherit his business and make it even bigger and more successful, they STILL haven't had any success or done fuck-all, because they built on an existing business, rather than starting their own from scratch.

 

[Meister]

Really?

Well, this republican and his wife started out with 10 grand, a personal bank loan, and a dream.........Turned it into a very successful entity that provided well paying jobs with very generous benefits for many employees through the years.......It's called personal responsibility and hard work. It's called contributing to society, and helping to make this great country run.

Yeah, our kids will inherit quite nicely. It's OUR money. It's THEIR money. It's not YOUR money. You did NOT earn it. You will NOT see a dime of it........But, our kids will. It's best you be nice to them. You just might be employed by them one day!

I don't want your money, grow the fuck up.

It is great that you had success at business. However, your kids did not have success at your business unless you employ them.

Unfortunately, this is not surprising. Republicans have a long history of supporting sweatshops.

His kids haven't had success in HIS business . . . yet. No one ever said his kids aren't out having their own business successes right now, or won't between now and when he and his wife pass (I have no idea how old Wicked's kids are). And apparently, you and your dimwitted compatriots seem to think that if his kids inherit his business and make it even bigger and more successful, they STILL haven't had any success or done fuck-all, because they built on an existing business, rather than starting their own from scratch.

I went to school with two kids who's dad had a contract with the city with his business which was trash collecting. The father died of cancer and the two kids took it over. They ended up with contracts with 3/4 of the cities in the county. They worked their ass of for that business.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Really?

Well, this republican and his wife started out with 10 grand, a personal bank loan, and a dream.........Turned it into a very successful entity that provided well paying jobs with very generous benefits for many employees through the years.......It's called personal responsibility and hard work. It's called contributing to society, and helping to make this great country run.

Yeah, our kids will inherit quite nicely. It's OUR money. It's THEIR money. It's not YOUR money. You did NOT earn it. You will NOT see a dime of it........But, our kids will. It's best you be nice to them. You just might be employed by them one day!

I don't want your money, grow the fuck up.

It is great that you had success at business. However, your kids did not have success at your business unless you employ them.

Unfortunately, this is not surprising. Republicans have a long history of supporting sweatshops.

His kids haven't had success in HIS business . . . yet. No one ever said his kids aren't out having their own business successes right now, or won't between now and when he and his wife pass (I have no idea how old Wicked's kids are). And apparently, you and your dimwitted compatriots seem to think that if his kids inherit his business and make it even bigger and more successful, they STILL haven't had any success or done fuck-all, because they built on an existing business, rather than starting their own from scratch.

Our twin daughters are about to turn 12. Our son is 6 and special needs. Our daughters know the deal. They understand what it is all about. They understand that they will get everytthing as long as they do right. Our son will never fully understand. Our daughters know that he will be taken care of financially for all his future needs, and we expect them to care of those needs and guide his life as necessary...........Our daughters are amazing. They've already put themselves on the right track. In school, in the community, and as lil' mothers towards their brother. The way I see it, they've pretty much earned what they get already. But we'll never tell them that. Our goal is to see them graduate with honors and a degree from a top university. When that happens, they get a nice chunk of what they EARNED. Many years later, they get the rest of the chunk when the reaper calls. It is then up to them to build on it further for future generations. We have no doubt they will.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't want your money, grow the fuck up.

It is great that you had success at business. However, your kids did not have success at your business unless you employ them.

Unfortunately, this is not surprising. Republicans have a long history of supporting sweatshops.

His kids haven't had success in HIS business . . . yet. No one ever said his kids aren't out having their own business successes right now, or won't between now and when he and his wife pass (I have no idea how old Wicked's kids are). And apparently, you and your dimwitted compatriots seem to think that if his kids inherit his business and make it even bigger and more successful, they STILL haven't had any success or done fuck-all, because they built on an existing business, rather than starting their own from scratch.

Our twin daughters are about to turn 12. Our son is 6 and special needs. Our daughters know the deal. They understand what it is all about. They understand that they will get everytthing as long as they do right. Our son will never fully understand. Our daughters know that he will be taken care of financially for all his future needs, and we expect them to care of those needs and guide his life as necessary...........Our daughters are amazing. They've already put themselves on the right track. In school, in the community, and as lil' mothers towards their brother. The way I see it, they've pretty much earned what they get already. But we'll never tell them that. Our goal is to see them graduate with honors and a degree from a top university. When that happens, they get a nice chunk of what they EARNED. Many years later, they get the rest of the chunk when the reaper calls. It is then up to them to build on it further for future generations. We have no doubt they will.

Well, the liberals MIGHT concede that your son should get SOMETHING, since he's special needs. But, of course, they would much prefer that he receive it funneled through a nice government agency, rather than directly from his parents. As for the children who will take on the responsibility for him when you are gone, they should get nothing from you with which to do so. It's cheating, you understand.

Honestly, if I had to guess, I'd say the liberals would be a lot more comfortable with the assets of you and your wife going to the state, your son being in a government institution which will dole out to him what it thinks he should have, and your daughters starting over again from scratch. This whole "family responsibility and continuity" things seems to make them twitchy, for some reason. Maybe because they've worked so hard for so long to make sure that not very many families can be relied on to do it.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Do the poor earn their incomes?