Do You Support The "Gun Show Loophole?"

[martybegan]

Car owners are licensed. Those who are irresponsible lose their license

With guns.....I hold YOU responsible if you provide a gun to a criminal

and yet in NY I always hear about some idiot who got into a crash while drunk even though his licsense has been suspended like 10 times.

Do we punish people who have had thier care stolen?

And yet we have no provisions to prevent YOU from selling your gun to a known criminal

Time to hold YOU responsible

Yes, you can prove the person sold it to a felon, just like you can jail someone after you PROVE someone stole a car.

You have no provisions to stop anyone from committing almost any crime, unless you have some Pre-cog's hiding in your basement.

 

[PaulS1950]

This is the crux of the matter;
Some people think they can prevent a crime by removing the tools of the crime when in fact the tools will simply change and the crime will continue.
Then they will want to remove that tool thinking it will finally put an end to the crime. When the tool changes again the same process continues.
This is how it happened in England - one step at a time until all guns were removed from private hands but now the tool changed again and they are going to ban long kitchen knives because that is the tool used most often by criminals now. They have also enacted laws that make it a crime to defend yourself so you are supposed to vacate your home and let the criminal take what they want.

It is not the tool used - it is the user that commits the crime. Punish the criminal for committing the crime not everyone because they own the tools.

 

[Vast LWC]

False.

It is a Federal felony to sell to felonious criminal.

That's some serious alliteration right there.

But it's only a felony if you know the criminal's background.

Therefore, without a background check, there's no way to prosecute said felony.

Thus, the loophole.

Perhaps we should call it "the Fallacy of the facilitation of firearms to felonious criminals being a federal felony".

Nah, it's much easier to say "Gun Show Loophole".

 

[OODA_Loop]

Therefore, without a background check, there's no way to prosecute said felony.

Sure there are. You sell a gun to Felon. You become a felon and lose your gun(s).

Enforce it.

The NICS background check should be online public domain.

 

[Vast LWC]

Sure there are. You sell a gun to Felon. You become a felon and lose your gun(s).

Enforce it.

The NICS background check should be online public domain.

You can't enforce it if you can't prove the seller knew the buyer was a felon.

Because if the seller doesn't know the buyer is a felon, the law says it's not a felony...

Thus the reason for universal background checks...

 

[OriginalShroom]

I can't beleive that the Democrats are actually pushing a bill that would require a back ground verification for the sale of private property, yet refuse to allow a requirement to verify eligability to work, IE E-Verify.

Democrats claim that there are too many chances of a false return with E-Verify, yet they are saying that the NICS background checks are accurate enough?

 

[OKTexas]

Sure there are. You sell a gun to Felon. You become a felon and lose your gun(s).

Enforce it.

The NICS background check should be online public domain.

You can't enforce it if you can't prove the seller knew the buyer was a felon.

Because if the seller doesn't know the buyer is a felon, the law says it's not a felony...

Thus the reason for universal background checks...

How do you implement a UBC in a verifiable manner?

 

[Lakhota]

Sure there are. You sell a gun to Felon. You become a felon and lose your gun(s).

Enforce it.

The NICS background check should be online public domain.

You can't enforce it if you can't prove the seller knew the buyer was a felon.

Because if the seller doesn't know the buyer is a felon, the law says it's not a felony...

Thus the reason for universal background checks...

How do you implement a UBC in a verifiable manner?

Gun Background Checks Work. Let's Fund Them. - Bloomberg

 

[OKTexas]

You can't enforce it if you can't prove the seller knew the buyer was a felon.

Because if the seller doesn't know the buyer is a felon, the law says it's not a felony...

Thus the reason for universal background checks...

How do you implement a UBC in a verifiable manner?

Gun Background Checks Work. Let's Fund Them. - Bloomberg

Not one word as to how you could verify people are using the system, care to try again?

 

[Dubya]

This is the crux of the matter;
Some people think they can prevent a crime by removing the tools of the crime when in fact the tools will simply change and the crime will continue.
Then they will want to remove that tool thinking it will finally put an end to the crime. When the tool changes again the same process continues.
This is how it happened in England - one step at a time until all guns were removed from private hands but now the tool changed again and they are going to ban long kitchen knives because that is the tool used most often by criminals now. They have also enacted laws that make it a crime to defend yourself so you are supposed to vacate your home and let the criminal take what they want.

It is not the tool used - it is the user that commits the crime. Punish the criminal for committing the crime not everyone because they own the tools.

In the case of guns, it is the tool. Guns kill so easily that many of the deaths are a product of that quality.

 

[Lakhota]

How do you implement a UBC in a verifiable manner?

Gun Background Checks Work. Let's Fund Them. - Bloomberg

Not one word as to how you could verify people are using the system, care to try again?

Universal background checks may not be gun-control utopia - but it's a good speed-bump.

Gun Show Loophole Frequently Asked Questions - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence

 

[OKTexas]

Gun Background Checks Work. Let's Fund Them. - Bloomberg

Not one word as to how you could verify people are using the system, care to try again?

Universal background checks may not be gun-control utopia - but it's a good speed-bump.

Gun Show Loophole Frequently Asked Questions - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence

From your link "How can we close the gun show loophole?

It's simple. Closing the dangerous loophole merely requires unlicensed gun sellers at gun shows to conduct the same instant background checks that licensed dealers must conduct."

So they are only proposing that only private sales conducted at a gun show would be required a check. But they didn't say how it could be verified, are they going to send monitors, conduct buy stings and what could stop people from making arrangements to deliver the gun, out side the show where checks don't apply. Now I'm playing devils advocate here because I have all the guns I think I will ever need, I'm just pointing out that the magic wand of government can't always be all encompassing or as effective as one might want, determined people will always find a "loophole"

 

[Quantum Windbag]

How do you implement a UBC in a verifiable manner?

Gun Background Checks Work. Let's Fund Them. - Bloomberg

Not one word as to how you could verify people are using the system, care to try again?

Posting links that only tangentially touch on the subject is the entire extent of Lakhota's ability to debate.

 

[Dubya]

Sure there are. You sell a gun to Felon. You become a felon and lose your gun(s).

Enforce it.

The NICS background check should be online public domain.

You can't enforce it if you can't prove the seller knew the buyer was a felon.

Because if the seller doesn't know the buyer is a felon, the law says it's not a felony...

Thus the reason for universal background checks...

How do you implement a UBC in a verifiable manner?

It's easy to verify with universal registration that requires periodic renewal.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This is the crux of the matter;
Some people think they can prevent a crime by removing the tools of the crime when in fact the tools will simply change and the crime will continue.
Then they will want to remove that tool thinking it will finally put an end to the crime. When the tool changes again the same process continues.
This is how it happened in England - one step at a time until all guns were removed from private hands but now the tool changed again and they are going to ban long kitchen knives because that is the tool used most often by criminals now. They have also enacted laws that make it a crime to defend yourself so you are supposed to vacate your home and let the criminal take what they want.

It is not the tool used - it is the user that commits the crime. Punish the criminal for committing the crime not everyone because they own the tools.

In the case of guns, it is the tool. Guns kill so easily that many of the deaths are a product of that quality.

Guns kill easily? How would you know that?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You can't enforce it if you can't prove the seller knew the buyer was a felon.

Because if the seller doesn't know the buyer is a felon, the law says it's not a felony...

Thus the reason for universal background checks...

How do you implement a UBC in a verifiable manner?

It's easy to verify with universal registration that requires periodic renewal.

Which is not going to happen, thus ending the conversation.

 

[Lakhota]

Personally, I would think any logical person would want universal background checks. Wouldn't it make more sense to suggest ways to best make the system work rather than saying it won't work?

Unfortunately, only six states (CA, CO, IL, NY, OR, RI) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. Three more states (CT, MD, PA) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Seven other states (HI, IA, MA, MI, NJ, NC, NE) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. Florida allows its counties to regulate gun shows by requiring background checks on all firearms purchases at these events. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the Gun Show Loophole.

More: Gun Show Loophole - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence

 

[OKTexas]

You can't enforce it if you can't prove the seller knew the buyer was a felon.

Because if the seller doesn't know the buyer is a felon, the law says it's not a felony...

Thus the reason for universal background checks...

How do you implement a UBC in a verifiable manner?

It's easy to verify with universal registration that requires periodic renewal.

Can you say unconstitutional? Are you ever going to address the post I provided the color keyed response on, or are you admitting defeat on that one?

 

[OKTexas]

Personally, I would think any logical person would want universal background checks. Wouldn't it make more sense to suggest ways to best make the system work rather than saying it won't work?

Unfortunately, only six states (CA, CO, IL, NY, OR, RI) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. Three more states (CT, MD, PA) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Seven other states (HI, IA, MA, MI, NJ, NC, NE) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. Florida allows its counties to regulate gun shows by requiring background checks on all firearms purchases at these events. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the Gun Show Loophole.

More: Gun Show Loophole - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence

Actually I would have no problem if they would make NICS available to the public where a seller could do a name and dob check. But if you start forcing records keeping requirements on non-dealers or other bureaucratic crap, then I would have objections.

 

[Lakhota]

Sorry, Mandatory Gun Registration Is Constitutional - Taking Liberties - CBS News