Do You Support The "Gun Show Loophole?"

[OKTexas]

Personally, I would think any logical person would want universal background checks. Wouldn't it make more sense to suggest ways to best make the system work rather than saying it won't work?



More: Gun Show Loophole - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence

Actually I would have no problem if they would make NICS available to the public where a seller could do a name and dob check. But if you start forcing records keeping requirements on non-dealers or other bureaucratic crap, then I would have objections.

Owning a firearm is a right, but selling firearms for profit is not. If a so called 'private seller' is burdened by too much records keeping etc, then he is NOT really Uncle Joe selling some of his collection, now is he? These so-called 'private sellers' are supposed to be making only occasional sales. According to federal law, they cannot be "engaged in the business" of selling firearms. But that's exactly what undercover investigators found. They found private sellers with large inventories doing a brisk business. In fact, one private seller acknowledged selling 348 guns in less than a year.

There are a few people selling any quantities with regularity, the majority of private sales are individuals selling their own guns. Seems like the easiest fix it to change the dealer requirements to gather in the folks operating on the fringes of the law. There is no reason to take a sledge hammer to a problem that a small ball ping could fix. Would that not make more sense?

 

[OKTexas]

Not one word as to how you could verify people are using the system, care to try again?

As soon as the gun is used in a crime, the seller becomes liable for contributing to said crime. Thus, sellers will want to use the system, to cover their ass.

In combination with a national registry, it works.

I've got guns that were originally purchased 40-50 years ago, long before you got more than a cash register receipt. Hell one I purchased when I was 11 years old, walked in the Western Auto store, bought the gun and a box of shells and walked home with them. There are tens of millions of people like me in this country, our guns have harmed no one and if you think we will bow down the the bureaucrats and pay to register those guns, without a huge fight, you might want to think again.

 

[OKTexas]

This is only true if, as I said, you can show that universal registration is an effective means to affect a compelling state iinterest, and is the least restrictive means to that end.

If for no other reason that felons and others legally unable to own a gun cannot, according to currenlt jurisprudence, be forced to register their guns, it cannot be shown that runiversal registration is an "effective means".

Thus, it is not just an infringement, but one that violates the constitution.

Which is clearly why the NRA, and their pet congressmen, pushed through legislation to attempt to ban federal government studies that would provide said proof.

There are many studies that have shown conclusively that around 85% of weapons used in crimes have been sold privately, without documentation.

Which is a clear indication that private undocumented sales of said weapons is a contributing factor to them being used in criminal activity, and thus a threat to public safety.

And, of course, the only sure way to find out is to do it.

The CDC participated in a study of gun laws which showed them largely ineffective in curbing violent crime. Next.

 

[Bfgrn]

I think he's talking about the restraint of trade aspect there, Bfgrn, forcing a private citizen to perform some action to engage in trade with another private citizen. Of course, you folks don't give a fuck about the Constitution anyway, so why would you care, right?

Hey Einstein, if 'The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill', HOW do we know WHO is a felon or mentally ill? By looks? Smell??

Your solution to not being able to tell who the felons are is to punish everyone?

You truly are a pea brain. PLEASE tell me how to tell who a felon is without a background check. Do you look up their asshole looking for forced entry?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Can you say read? Reading into a court decision doesn't make registration unconstitutional and some areas require it.

So you are admitting defeat on that one post, I'd like you to put it on the record.

There aren't going to be successful court challenges against registration of firearms and you know it. Only fools think that's an issue.

There have already been successful court challenges against regulation. It is impossible for the government to use the fact that a gun is not registered as a means to convict a felon of not registering a gun because it violates the 5th Amendment protections against self incrimination. That would mean that, if we created a registration, the government could not actually force anyone to register their guns, thus making registration impossible.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Personally, I would think any logical person would want universal background checks. Wouldn't it make more sense to suggest ways to best make the system work rather than saying it won't work?



More: Gun Show Loophole - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence

Actually I would have no problem if they would make NICS available to the public where a seller could do a name and dob check. But if you start forcing records keeping requirements on non-dealers or other bureaucratic crap, then I would have objections.

Owning a firearm is a right, but selling firearms for profit is not. If a so called 'private seller' is burdened by too much records keeping etc, then he is NOT really Uncle Joe selling some of his collection, now is he? These so-called 'private sellers' are supposed to be making only occasional sales. According to federal law, they cannot be "engaged in the business" of selling firearms. But that's exactly what undercover investigators found. They found private sellers with large inventories doing a brisk business. In fact, one private seller acknowledged selling 348 guns in less than a year.

Once again you argue yourself into an untenable position. You really would be better off if you just hid under your bed instead of trying to get everyone to think you are smart and that the world does not scare the crap out of you.

Doing business is a right, this can easily be demonstrated by the fact that no government anywhere has ever figured out a way to prevent people from doing business. If they pile on to many regulations people always find a way to get what they want despite the government. Anyone who argues I do not have a right to do business thinks rights are granted by pieces of paper, and is just as wacky as the idiots that insist the Earth is less than 5000 years old.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

There aren't going to be successful court challenges against registration of firearms and you know it. Only fools think that's an issue.

Which came first
Gun Confiscation
OR
Gun Registration

I register my car......don't worry much about confiscation

All that proves is you aren't paying attention.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

NRA paranoia

We just don't want nut jobs having the guns of their choice when they decide to shoot up a bunch of first graders

We don't, either, and to claim we do is disingenuous. Now come up with something that will stop the nutjobs without fucking over law-abiding citizens.

So far you guys are batting 0-fer...

I have a suggestion for you, start with the mental health system actually REPORTING the nutjobs to the NICS database.

An inconvenience is not a 'fuck over'. You self absorbed anti American right wing turds believe you are 'entitled' to special treatment. You are not. Owning a firearm is a right, but that doesn't mean that right doesn't come with responsibility to other citizens.

Put on big boy pants, grow the fuck up and stop all the whining.

Are you saying that if, for example, you are planning a big date with your whatever, and I show up and tag along, talk about bowel movements all night long, and puke in your dinner, it wouldn't fuck you over? Because I can guarantee that I can be so fucking inconvenient you will never see the person you were trying to impress again in your life.

 

[Dubya]

So you are admitting defeat on that one post, I'd like you to put it on the record.

There aren't going to be successful court challenges against registration of firearms and you know it. Only fools think that's an issue.

Say it all day, doesn't make it so. You ever going to address the other post?

I can't keep up with it all, so tell me what you think I should know, just like all your breed tries to tell the world and pretend people who stand for individual freedom are a joke. There is an individual freedom issue for you to own assault type weapons, but there is also an individual freedom issue involving not having their young child being shot 11 times by that choice of how to apply freedom. I've had to live a warrior's life since first grade, when I went to a white school and discovered six White people in first grade and there wasn't kindergarten back then.

I grew up in a war zone as a child in America, facing nine blocks of ****** infested streets to go and come back from school on my feet. We had six White people in the first grade and I was the only White person left when my family moved from that neighborhood. My reward is having a super-genius IQ, because I learned from my bad experience and didn't make it a crutch in my life.

I know what it's like to grow up as a minority and it isn't fun.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwpb&v=oBftzMxDtIg&NR=1]Sync - Episode 1 (Directed by Corridor Digital) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Gun Murders Shot Up 25% After Missouri Repealed Universal Background Check Law

Universal background checks before gun purchases can have an enormous impact on reducing firearm-related deaths, according to testimony presented before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee this week.

While gun rights lobbyists, led by the National Rifle Association, claim criminal background checks before all purchases are impractical and unnecessary, research from the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research found that strict guidelines may actually reduce gun-related homicides.

Missouri, the site of President Barack Obama’s recent gun control speech, had a firm “permit-to-purchase” law in place until 2007, when it was repealed. The law -- which both the Missouri Sport Shooting Association and NRA helped overturn -- required Missouri residents to obtain a sheriff’s permit before purchasing a concealable weapon.

According to Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, that stipulation on individual sales may have saved lives. Testifying before the Senate on Tuesday, Webster said he conducted an analysis that found the expiration of the “permit-to-purchase” law was followed by a 25 percent spike in homicides over three years.

“Preliminary evidence suggests that the increase in the diversion of guns to criminals linked to the law’s repeal may have translated into increases in homicides committed with firearms,” Webster said in his written testimony to the Senate. “From 1999 through 2007, Missouri’s age-adjusted homicide rate was relatively stable, fluctuating around a mean of 4.66 per 100,000 population per year. In 2008, the first full year after the permit-to-purchase licensing law was repealed, the age-adjusted firearm homicide rate in Missouri increased sharply to 6.23 per 100,000 population, a 34 percent increase. For the post-repeal period of 2008-2010, the mean annual age-adjusted firearm homicide rate was 5.82, 25 percent above the pre-repeal mean.”

more

Written Testimony
Submitted for the record by Daniel W. Webster, ScD, MPH Professor and Director Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research

For the hearing before the Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Human Rights on:
“Proposals to Reduce Gun Violence: Protecting Our Communities While Respecting the Second Amendment.”
Tuesday February 12, 2013

Excerpt:

Opponents’ Claim #2: Gun control laws don’t work because criminals won’t obey them and will always find a way to get a gun through theft or the illegal market.

Evidence in Response: First, the logic of this argument is flawed. Using this logic, laws against drunk driving are pointless because drunks will always disobey those laws. Just as drunk driving laws provide law enforcement with the tools to arrest individuals who break those laws and deter others from driving drunk, laws such as background check requirements for all gun sales will help law enforcement combat illegal gun trafficking and keep guns from prohibited individuals.

Opponents of gun control point to the frequency with which criminals obtain firearms through unregulated private transactions as proof that regulations are pointless. However, I and many of the experts convened for our conference believe that the weaknesses in current federal firearms laws are the reason that many gun traffickers, criminals, underage youth, and other prohibited individuals are able to obtain firearms in the underground market.

According to you, correlation is not causation. That is what you keep telling me whan I point to the fact that every single time gun control laws have been loosened in high gun control areas crime has gone down.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

There aren't going to be successful court challenges against registration of firearms and you know it. Only fools think that's an issue.

Which came first
Gun Confiscation
OR
Gun Registration

I register my car......don't worry much about confiscation

Apples to watermelons

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Gun Murders Shot Up 25% After Missouri Repealed Universal Background Check Law

Universal background checks before gun purchases can have an enormous impact on reducing firearm-related deaths, according to testimony presented before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee this week.

While gun rights lobbyists, led by the National Rifle Association, claim criminal background checks before all purchases are impractical and unnecessary, research from the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research found that strict guidelines may actually reduce gun-related homicides.

Missouri, the site of President Barack Obama’s recent gun control speech, had a firm “permit-to-purchase” law in place until 2007, when it was repealed. The law -- which both the Missouri Sport Shooting Association and NRA helped overturn -- required Missouri residents to obtain a sheriff’s permit before purchasing a concealable weapon.

According to Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, that stipulation on individual sales may have saved lives. Testifying before the Senate on Tuesday, Webster said he conducted an analysis that found the expiration of the “permit-to-purchase” law was followed by a 25 percent spike in homicides over three years.

“Preliminary evidence suggests that the increase in the diversion of guns to criminals linked to the law’s repeal may have translated into increases in homicides committed with firearms,” Webster said in his written testimony to the Senate. “From 1999 through 2007, Missouri’s age-adjusted homicide rate was relatively stable, fluctuating around a mean of 4.66 per 100,000 population per year. In 2008, the first full year after the permit-to-purchase licensing law was repealed, the age-adjusted firearm homicide rate in Missouri increased sharply to 6.23 per 100,000 population, a 34 percent increase. For the post-repeal period of 2008-2010, the mean annual age-adjusted firearm homicide rate was 5.82, 25 percent above the pre-repeal mean.”

more

Written Testimony
Submitted for the record by Daniel W. Webster, ScD, MPH Professor and Director Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research

For the hearing before the Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Human Rights on:
“Proposals to Reduce Gun Violence: Protecting Our Communities While Respecting the Second Amendment.”
Tuesday February 12, 2013

Excerpt:

Opponents’ Claim #2: Gun control laws don’t work because criminals won’t obey them and will always find a way to get a gun through theft or the illegal market.

Evidence in Response: First, the logic of this argument is flawed. Using this logic, laws against drunk driving are pointless because drunks will always disobey those laws. Just as drunk driving laws provide law enforcement with the tools to arrest individuals who break those laws and deter others from driving drunk, laws such as background check requirements for all gun sales will help law enforcement combat illegal gun trafficking and keep guns from prohibited individuals.

Opponents of gun control point to the frequency with which criminals obtain firearms through unregulated private transactions as proof that regulations are pointless. However, I and many of the experts convened for our conference believe that the weaknesses in current federal firearms laws are the reason that many gun traffickers, criminals, underage youth, and other prohibited individuals are able to obtain firearms in the underground market.

So one the one hand you claim that regional laws are effective and one the other hand you claim that Chicago's laws are ineffective because they ARE regional.

Can you make up your mind, please?

You want consistency from these people? I suggest you try looking for a unicorn farting rainbows, I bet you will see that first.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Gun Murders Shot Up 25% After Missouri Repealed Universal Background Check Law

Universal background checks before gun purchases can have an enormous impact on reducing firearm-related deaths, according to testimony presented before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee this week.

While gun rights lobbyists, led by the National Rifle Association, claim criminal background checks before all purchases are impractical and unnecessary, research from the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research found that strict guidelines may actually reduce gun-related homicides.

Missouri, the site of President Barack Obama’s recent gun control speech, had a firm “permit-to-purchase” law in place until 2007, when it was repealed. The law -- which both the Missouri Sport Shooting Association and NRA helped overturn -- required Missouri residents to obtain a sheriff’s permit before purchasing a concealable weapon.

According to Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, that stipulation on individual sales may have saved lives. Testifying before the Senate on Tuesday, Webster said he conducted an analysis that found the expiration of the “permit-to-purchase” law was followed by a 25 percent spike in homicides over three years.

“Preliminary evidence suggests that the increase in the diversion of guns to criminals linked to the law’s repeal may have translated into increases in homicides committed with firearms,” Webster said in his written testimony to the Senate. “From 1999 through 2007, Missouri’s age-adjusted homicide rate was relatively stable, fluctuating around a mean of 4.66 per 100,000 population per year. In 2008, the first full year after the permit-to-purchase licensing law was repealed, the age-adjusted firearm homicide rate in Missouri increased sharply to 6.23 per 100,000 population, a 34 percent increase. For the post-repeal period of 2008-2010, the mean annual age-adjusted firearm homicide rate was 5.82, 25 percent above the pre-repeal mean.”

more

Written Testimony
Submitted for the record by Daniel W. Webster, ScD, MPH Professor and Director Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research

For the hearing before the Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Human Rights on:
“Proposals to Reduce Gun Violence: Protecting Our Communities While Respecting the Second Amendment.”
Tuesday February 12, 2013

Excerpt:

Opponents’ Claim #2: Gun control laws don’t work because criminals won’t obey them and will always find a way to get a gun through theft or the illegal market.

Evidence in Response: First, the logic of this argument is flawed. Using this logic, laws against drunk driving are pointless because drunks will always disobey those laws. Just as drunk driving laws provide law enforcement with the tools to arrest individuals who break those laws and deter others from driving drunk, laws such as background check requirements for all gun sales will help law enforcement combat illegal gun trafficking and keep guns from prohibited individuals.

Opponents of gun control point to the frequency with which criminals obtain firearms through unregulated private transactions as proof that regulations are pointless. However, I and many of the experts convened for our conference believe that the weaknesses in current federal firearms laws are the reason that many gun traffickers, criminals, underage youth, and other prohibited individuals are able to obtain firearms in the underground market.

So one the one hand you claim that regional laws are effective and one the other hand you claim that Chicago's laws are ineffective because they ARE regional.

Can you make up your mind, please?

Just like I said, you right wing turds believe you are entitled. Entitled to an explanation without the responsibility of READING.

OK, I will be your knowledge 'nanny' this one time...

Furthermore, in an in-depth, multi-method study of the underground gun market in Chicago only twenty percent of male arrestees who participated in an anonymous survey reported that they had owned a handgun and sixty percent of those who did own one reported that it had taken them more than a week to search for and obtain a handgun. Criminals reported wariness of purchasing firearms from sellers they did not know or trust, a dearth of trusted suppliers of guns, and considerable mark-ups in price from the legal market.

Fourth, gun sales regulations do impact the illegal gun market. My research has shown that when states enact laws to increase gun seller and purchaser accountability including universal background checks, strong regulation and oversight of licensed gun dealers, and mandatory reporting of theft of loss of firearms, far fewer guns are diverted from the legal to the illegal market. Unfortunately, the success of these state gun laws in reducing the diversion of guns to criminals is undermined by gaps in federal laws which facilitate interstate trafficking of firearms from states with the weakest gun control laws to those with comprehensive policies to keep firearms from dangerous people.

Umm, do you have any idea how easy it is to go to Arkansas, Oklahoma, Iowa, Kentucky, or Tennessee if you live in Missouri and decide you want a gun? Why would you argue it is easy to get a gun outside Chicago if you want one, and ignore that it is also easy to get one outside of Missouri? Do you think thay have armed border checkpoints to prevent people from crossing the state lines?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I can't beleive that the Democrats are actually pushing a bill that would require a back ground verification for the sale of private property, yet refuse to allow a requirement to verify eligability to work, IE E-Verify.

Democrats claim that there are too many chances of a false return with E-Verify, yet they are saying that the NICS background checks are accurate enough?

Wait, when did that happen?

E-Verify sounds like an excellent idea to this Democrat.

For some strange reason, the ACLU thinks that E-Verify violates privacy, and that if is not accurate. Despite these, legitimate, concerns about this system, and the fact that they routinely sue police dpeartments on behalf of people who get arrested because someone else with a similar name gets misidentified by NCIC checks all the time, they have no problem with using a similar system to conduct background checks for innocent people to buy a gun.

This is your chance to prove you are consistently on the side of freedom or the side of statism by taking a position solidly in favor of both, or opposing both.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Not one word as to how you could verify people are using the system, care to try again?

As soon as the gun is used in a crime, the seller becomes liable for contributing to said crime. Thus, sellers will want to use the system, to cover their ass.

In combination with a national registry, it works.

Unless you are willing to hold everyone who sells anything responsible for the actions of people who buy their products I suggest you crawl back into your slavery cave and stop trying to ignore the 14th Amendment.

 

[Dubya]

Gun Murders Shot Up 25% After Missouri Repealed Universal Background Check Law

Universal background checks before gun purchases can have an enormous impact on reducing firearm-related deaths, according to testimony presented before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee this week.

While gun rights lobbyists, led by the National Rifle Association, claim criminal background checks before all purchases are impractical and unnecessary, research from the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research found that strict guidelines may actually reduce gun-related homicides.

Missouri, the site of President Barack Obama’s recent gun control speech, had a firm “permit-to-purchase” law in place until 2007, when it was repealed. The law -- which both the Missouri Sport Shooting Association and NRA helped overturn -- required Missouri residents to obtain a sheriff’s permit before purchasing a concealable weapon.

According to Daniel Webster, director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, that stipulation on individual sales may have saved lives. Testifying before the Senate on Tuesday, Webster said he conducted an analysis that found the expiration of the “permit-to-purchase” law was followed by a 25 percent spike in homicides over three years.

“Preliminary evidence suggests that the increase in the diversion of guns to criminals linked to the law’s repeal may have translated into increases in homicides committed with firearms,” Webster said in his written testimony to the Senate. “From 1999 through 2007, Missouri’s age-adjusted homicide rate was relatively stable, fluctuating around a mean of 4.66 per 100,000 population per year. In 2008, the first full year after the permit-to-purchase licensing law was repealed, the age-adjusted firearm homicide rate in Missouri increased sharply to 6.23 per 100,000 population, a 34 percent increase. For the post-repeal period of 2008-2010, the mean annual age-adjusted firearm homicide rate was 5.82, 25 percent above the pre-repeal mean.”

more

Written Testimony
Submitted for the record by Daniel W. Webster, ScD, MPH Professor and Director Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research

For the hearing before the Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Human Rights on:
“Proposals to Reduce Gun Violence: Protecting Our Communities While Respecting the Second Amendment.”
Tuesday February 12, 2013

Excerpt:

Opponents’ Claim #2: Gun control laws don’t work because criminals won’t obey them and will always find a way to get a gun through theft or the illegal market.

Evidence in Response: First, the logic of this argument is flawed. Using this logic, laws against drunk driving are pointless because drunks will always disobey those laws. Just as drunk driving laws provide law enforcement with the tools to arrest individuals who break those laws and deter others from driving drunk, laws such as background check requirements for all gun sales will help law enforcement combat illegal gun trafficking and keep guns from prohibited individuals.

Opponents of gun control point to the frequency with which criminals obtain firearms through unregulated private transactions as proof that regulations are pointless. However, I and many of the experts convened for our conference believe that the weaknesses in current federal firearms laws are the reason that many gun traffickers, criminals, underage youth, and other prohibited individuals are able to obtain firearms in the underground market.

According to you, correlation is not causation. That is what you keep telling me whan I point to the fact that every single time gun control laws have been loosened in high gun control areas crime has gone down.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwpb&v=oBftzMxDtIg&NR=1]Sync - Episode 1 (Directed by Corridor Digital) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I can't beleive that the Democrats are actually pushing a bill that would require a back ground verification for the sale of private property, yet refuse to allow a requirement to verify eligability to work, IE E-Verify.

Democrats claim that there are too many chances of a false return with E-Verify, yet they are saying that the NICS background checks are accurate enough?

Wait, when did that happen?

E-Verify sounds like an excellent idea to this Democrat.

Right...But most democratics -those in the ruling class anyways- don't want E-Verify for employment, to screen out illegals.

Frankly, I'm against both...America has become far too much of a snoop society.

I have no problem with the government setting up E-Verify, or even a system permitting an individual to run a background check on a buyer if he wants to sell him a gun. I do, however, oppose making either mandatory.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Can you say unconstitutional? Are you ever going to address the post I provided the color keyed response on, or are you admitting defeat on that one?

The Constitution provides for federal oversight over interstate commerce.

The intent of that is to prevent states from imposing tariffs on products made in other states, not to make it harder for people to do business.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Not one word as to how you could verify people are using the system, care to try again?

As soon as the gun is used in a crime, the seller becomes liable for contributing to said crime.

Based on... what?

Based on the fact that blacks are to uppity if they get their hands on a gun.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

As soon as the gun is used in a crime, the seller becomes liable for contributing to said crime.

Based on... what?

Based on the fact that the seller illegally provided the criminal with the means to carry out their crime.

Let me get this straight.

You think the people who sold Dorner a gun should be held responsible because they provided a criminal with the means to kill cops, even though he was not a criminal when he bought the gun. In fact, he was a cop, and a sailor, when he bought the guns.