Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[Annie]

That being said, this ***INDEPENDENT*** is most likely going to vote for Obama this year cuz already lived under Romney and I just 'plain ole' don't trust the critter.

Be more specific.

Hey, Romney started all this Obama Care crap. Without him it wouldn't exist. It is a prayer answered for the insurance and hospital industry. They are forcing everyone to pay the dues. Romney is an old time establishment man. He thrives in those echelons. Common man? He hasn't a clue. But, he can relate to insurance execs. So buyer beware. Romney/Obama...they both suck for regular folks I just trust Obama a bit more.

What does that have to do with fast & furious?

 

[Unkotare]

If you want three amazing sources of American history, read Howard Zinn's a People history of the United States and Paul Johnsons A history of the American People. Either one by itself is one sided, but put together they are amazing.

Do you have some reason for thinking I haven't already read both of those?

most right leaners avoid Zinn like the plague. And left leaners tend to stop at Zinn and Chomsky. so finding people who have read both is rare.

I've taught and tutored history for years and years. I probably have close to a dozen US History books around here.

 

[Unkotare]

That being said, this ***INDEPENDENT*** is most likely going to vote for Obama this year cuz already lived under Romney and I just 'plain ole' don't trust the critter.

Be more specific.

Hey, Romney started all this Obama Care crap. Without him it wouldn't exist.

That is not a logical conclusion.

 

[Unkotare]

It is a prayer answered for the insurance and hospital industry.

Not really. Not in the long run.

 

[FactFinder]

Be more specific.

Hey, Romney started all this Obama Care crap. Without him it wouldn't exist.

That is not a logical conclusion.

Only a pragmayic oone having lived undr the "mandate" for several yars now. Nothing new in MA. In the whole of things O'Bama is likely to be more conservative than Romney seeing how he is from the midwest. That's a laugh on y'all who are too partisan to tell the difference.

Someone earliier posted this: Over 4,000 US troops dead because of the scumbag Bush and the GOP shitheads.We declared WAr in iraq with the blessing of the Congress.

Worth remembering. Romney falls into the same freaking establishment camp. Thinks it is no big deal who loses limbs as long as it is 'common folk'. He is incapable of relating.

 

[Vidi]

Do you have some reason for thinking I haven't already read both of those?

most right leaners avoid Zinn like the plague. And left leaners tend to stop at Zinn and Chomsky. so finding people who have read both is rare.

I've taught and tutored history for years and years. I probably have close to a dozen US History books around here.

Awesome man.

one of my favorite authors is David McCullough. Love his Truman book. Im currently rereading 1491 ( at home )...excellent book and Stop this depression now ( at work on my iphone )

My goal though is to read at least one biography or autobiography ( preferable ) about each American President. Im currently at 29 presidents down only 15 to go ( and no I havent read Obamas Books yet. But Ill get there )

I used to be big time into fiction, then The rise and the fall of the Third Reich changed everything. Winston Churchills A History of the English-Speaking Peoples was a blast ( after volume 1. Volume 1 was a chore )

Always thought I missed my calling and should have taught history. Oh well, I like making money too.

ETA: Ok Im out for a few days. Going camping with the family.

peace!

 

[Vidi]

Be more specific.

Hey, Romney started all this Obama Care crap. Without him it wouldn't exist. It is a prayer answered for the insurance and hospital industry. They are forcing everyone to pay the dues. Romney is an old time establishment man. He thrives in those echelons. Common man? He hasn't a clue. But, he can relate to insurance execs. So buyer beware. Romney/Obama...they both suck for regular folks I just trust Obama a bit more.

What does that have to do with fast & furious?

after 117 pages, things tend to wander a bit

 

[Salt Jones]

No it is not worse than Watergate.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think it's a very interesting question. Most were very willing to crucify the President over Watergate. So what about 'Fast & Furious?' What do you think?

No one died in Watergate. In Fast & Furious a US border agent was murdered and Obama wants to cover it up.

Again...thats up for debate.

Watergate Deaths - Midnight 7/12/76

Some claim that up to 30 people died because of Watergate. If it were true, would that mean Watergate was worse?

Some also claim that the moon landing was a hoax.

 

[Vast LWC]

Ah, but it is - because executive privilege cannot cover acts the president was not aware. Unless you're saying Obama perjured himself and not only was aware of F&F, but directly involved?

What are you, conservaderrps now?

LOL, ok, I'll give you that. Thought I'd add a little color to my posting.

{Washington (CNN) -- The House of Representatives voted Thursday to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt for refusing to turn over documents tied to the botched Fast and Furious gun-running sting -- a discredited operation that has become a sharp point of contention between Democrats and Republicans in Washington.}

House holds Holder in contempt - CNN.com

When did you become a mindless, partisan hack? You used to be rational.

False.

The only criminal acts were in the coverup.

False.

You don't know that.

We already have a coverup. The reason for the coverup is under investigation.

One law for the lords, another for the commoners and Republicans.

You leftists never change.

Since when is it partisan to demand that proof be provided before Congress goes on a general witch-hunt, and they and half the media hold a very public trial where they've already deemed the accused to be guilty of criminal behavior?

It was shitty when they did it to Bush, with the whole federal judges thing, and it's damn shitty now. Bush didn't do anything with federal judges that hadn't been done before, and the media circus was a fucking joke.

And this is the same damn situation.

And to tell you the truth, I'm actually happy that Obama basically gave them a big "Fuck You" with the whole EP thing, because Congress has been behaving like a bunch of children.

 

[Vast LWC]

No one died in Watergate. In Fast & Furious a US border agent was murdered and Obama wants to cover it up.

So, Holder ordered the ATF to murder a border agent????

Wow, that's a pretty serious accusation.

I imagine you have some evidence to back it up...

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No one died in Watergate. In Fast & Furious a US border agent was murdered and Obama wants to cover it up.

So, Holder ordered the ATF to murder a border agent????

Wow, that's a pretty serious accusation.

I imagine you have some evidence to back it up...

to start the operation the OK had to come higher up. Are you saying holder is incompetent and has no control over the agency that he is head of?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No one died in Watergate. In Fast & Furious a US border agent was murdered and Obama wants to cover it up.

Again...thats up for debate.

Watergate Deaths - Midnight 7/12/76

Some claim that up to 30 people died because of Watergate. If it were true, would that mean Watergate was worse?

Some also claim that the moon landing was a hoax.

Well hell if we're going this route let me jump in. A lot of people died of strange cause that Clinton knew, his security detail of Arkansas state troopers are all dead.

 

[Vast LWC]

to start the operation the OK had to come higher up. Are you saying holder is incompetent and has no control over the agency that he is head of?

So the ATF ordered the murder of a border agent???

That's also a very serious accusation.

I imagine you have some evidence to back it up...

 

[bigrebnc1775]

to start the operation the OK had to come higher up. Are you saying holder is incompetent and has no control over the agency that he is head of?

So the ATF ordered the murder of a border agent???

That's also a very serious accusation.

I imagine you have some evidence to back it up...

The ATF had to get the OK from higher up. Strange that you think the investigation should end? If the OK stopped at the ATF head then he should be charged if not the investigation should continue and the documents released until we find out the truth and this insane operation of allowing guns without tracking them into the hands of terrorists is stopped.

 

[Vast LWC]

We can keep going down the line like this for a while, until you're logically forced to admit that no crime was actually committed by any agent of the US government.

Or you can just admit it now.

Are you now stating that the ATF directly handed weapons to Mexicans with the implication that they should shoot a border agent?

And why would you have an investigation of something when there's no indication of wrongdoing?

 

[Vast LWC]

Remember the post that I was responding to held the clear implication that Holder was somehow responsible for murdering a US Border Agent.

 

[Foxfyre]

Remember the post that I was responding to held the clear implication that Holder was somehow responsible for murdering a US Border Agent.

Of course Holder is not responsible for murdering a US Border Agent and it is ridiculous to frame the debate in those terms. The issue boils down to two things and two things only: 1) the necessity for Congress to have ability to monitor, review, and regulate the actions of all areas of our government, and 2) that the family of Brian Terry, the dead border agent, be able to know what happened to their loved one.

We simply cannot have government agencies operating outside the reach and oversight of those we elect to govern. When that happens we are no longer a Republic but become a banana republic. Of course some government function must of necessity be done secretly and the oversight should be classified and behind closed doors. But when the Attorney General refuses to allow any oversight of any kind, Congress should and must act if we do not want rogue agencies operating outside of Congressional oversight.

 

[The T]

Remember the post that I was responding to held the clear implication that Holder was somehow responsible for murdering a US Border Agent.

Of course Holder is not responsible for murdering a US Border Agent and it is ridiculous to frame the debate in those terms. The issue boils down to two things and two things only: 1) the necessity for Congress to have ability to monitor, review, and regulate the actions of all areas of our government, and 2) that the family of Brian Terry, the dead border agent, be able to know what happened to their loved one.

We simply cannot have government agencies operating outside the reach and oversight of those we elect to govern. When that happens we are no longer a Republic but become a banana republic. Of course some government function must of necessity be done secretly and the oversight should be classified and behind closed doors. But when the Attorney General refuses to allow any oversight of any kind, Congress should and must act if we do not want rogue agencies operating outside of Congressional oversight.

And as seeing that the DOJ was created by Congress? They can just as easily DEFUND them in short order.

 

[Vast LWC]

Of course Holder is not responsible for murdering a US Border Agent and it is ridiculous to frame the debate in those terms.

I agree, it was the post I was responding to that framed it like that.

And BigReb was responding to my response to that post.

The issue boils down to two things and two things only: 1) the necessity for Congress to have ability to monitor, review, and regulate the actions of all areas of our government, and 2) that the family of Brian Terry, the dead border agent, be able to know what happened to their loved one.

The family of Brian Terry knows exactly what happened to their loved one. He was shot by some Mexicans. Mexicans that were unaffiliated with the ATF or the US government.

We simply cannot have government agencies operating outside the reach and oversight of those we elect to govern. When that happens we are no longer a Republic but become a banana republic. Of course some government function must of necessity be done secretly and the oversight should be classified and behind closed doors. But when the Attorney General refuses to allow any oversight of any kind, Congress should and must act if we do not want rogue agencies operating outside of Congressional oversight.

The Attorney General has provided 9000 pages of documents to Congress to provide for their oversight mission. He has been cooperating with them the entire time up until this point, and they have found NOTHING to indicate any criminal activity or wrongdoing whatsoever.

Since they didn't find anything, they are now trying to crucify him for a report that he made a mistake on, and then later corrected.

And I don't blame him, or the administration, at all, for blocking their ridiculous grandstanding every inch of the way.

As I said, Congress is behaving like children, and I'm happy to see that someone is telling them to go fuck themselves.