Does a liberal have the IQ to understand how Republican capitalist health care.....

[expatriate]

The alternative is what? Those of you who keep calling for a capitalistic approach... I'm waiting to hear exactly what the alternative is.

alternative is capitalism. Customers shopping with their own money and providers competing on basis of price and quality.

Imagine someone who jogs for fun and someone who races in life and death competition? Who would be a faster runner? Now you understand competion and how it makes us better. Not so hard was it? How old are you?

and how does the insurance industry and the profit they suck out of the system make our health care better and more cost effective?

 

[dblack]

The alternative is what? Those of you who keep calling for a capitalistic approach... I'm waiting to hear exactly what the alternative is.

alternative is capitalism. Customers shopping with their own money and providers competing on basis of price and quality.

Imagine someone who jogs for fun and someone who races in life and death competition? Who would be a faster runner? Now you understand competion and how it makes us better. Not so hard was it? How old are you?

and how does the insurance industry and the profit they suck out of the system make our health care better and more cost effective?

In healthy, functioning market, profit is earned by providing valuable services that people actually want. It's not a drain, but a driver of value. The health care market, and the health insurance market, is burdened by ill-conceived regulation and tax policies that distort the market and drive price inflation. With PPACA, it's no longer a market at all, but a public utility cartel of corporate insurance companies.

To hell with all you morons who supported selling us out to the insurance industry.

 

[editec]

if there had been no third-party payment systems (government or private) devised for health care.

1) a government or soviet monopoly of course will be very very inefficient and expensive. A private capitalist competitive insurance system would be the exact opposite.

Which does not remotely address the issue you just quoted. Likewise your response seems to neglect the history of how and when HC insurance started in the USA.

Private HC insurance has been around longer than medicade or medicare.

Seriously man do you know anything about this subject in the real world we share?

2. The state of the art of HC would be far less advanced than it currently is.

why would you say that? A better product is always the best way to leap frog your competition! Cars computers phones etc etc all got much much better thanks to capitalism, the greatest life saving force in human history by 100000%

I say that because the introduction of massive amounts of capital into the HC system gave incentive and capital for HC reasearch.

Once again, do you know ANYTHING about this subject?

Your posts to date suggest you don't.

 

[Agit8r]

Markets work great when the object is to sell the most of a product. When the object is another outcome, profit motive is contrary to sound operation.

 

[Underhill]

The alternative is what? Those of you who keep calling for a capitalistic approach... I'm waiting to hear exactly what the alternative is.

alternative is capitalism. Customers shopping with their own money and providers competing on basis of price and quality.

Imagine someone who jogs for fun and someone who races in life and death competition? Who would be a faster runner? Now you understand competion and how it makes us better. Not so hard was it? How old are you?

So what we've had. Good thinking.

I'm old enough to remember how that worked.

 

[Underhill]

Single payer is still insurance, with all the distorted incentives and inefficiencies that model entails. It just removes all choice and competition and creates one insurance company - whether it's run by government or not is irrelevant.

Right, except it removes the cost of having hundreds of thousands, probably millions, of secretaries to process claims from dozens of insurers as well as medicaid, medicare and social security.

It also gives us control of cost directly.

It removes profit from the equation. This alone means a 15-20% savings (depending on the state).

But yes, the government can be inefficient. Just like large corporations. This is why I do not claim we should start a completely new system. We simply need to look at what has been done in the rest of the world, where cost are lower and care is as good, or better, and emulate them.

The alternative is what? Those of you who keep calling for a capitalistic approach... I'm waiting to hear exactly what the alternative is.

The alternative is to mind your own business. There's no need to use the coercive power of the state to force your neighbors into your idea of the best health care solution. Freedom isn't such a bad deal.

Freedom is what we had and what brought us to this point, along with every other civilized nation on the planet.

 

[dblack]

Right, except it removes the cost of having hundreds of thousands, probably millions, of secretaries to process claims from dozens of insurers as well as medicaid, medicare and social security.

It also gives us control of cost directly.

It removes profit from the equation. This alone means a 15-20% savings (depending on the state).

But yes, the government can be inefficient. Just like large corporations. This is why I do not claim we should start a completely new system. We simply need to look at what has been done in the rest of the world, where cost are lower and care is as good, or better, and emulate them.

The alternative is what? Those of you who keep calling for a capitalistic approach... I'm waiting to hear exactly what the alternative is.

The alternative is to mind your own business. There's no need to use the coercive power of the state to force your neighbors into your idea of the best health care solution. Freedom isn't such a bad deal.

Freedom is what we had and what brought us to this point, along with every other civilized nation on the planet.

No, it's exactly the opposite. Increased regulation and corporate/state collusion track just ahead of health care inflation historically.

The health care and health insurance markets are deeply dysfunctional right now; you'll get no disagreement from me on that. But freedom is not the culprit. It's not the bad faith actions of individual insurance companies that are the problem. It's their collusion with the state, via lobbying and DC's 'revolving door'. That's what drove the tax and labor policies that built the group insurance industry in the first place, and it's the same kind of manipulation of the process that created PPACA.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

It's not the bad faith actions of individual insurance companies that are the problem. It's their collusion with the state, via lobbying and DC's 'revolving door'.

its easier than that. Liberals actually made competition between health care insurance companies illegal! Imagine what the cost of toothpaste would be if each state had their own requirements!!

 

[Grandma]

If you want a good car you only buy a good car and the bad car companies go out of business, if you want good care you only buy good care and those who don't provide good care go out of business!

Capitalism is the best way to improve the quality of caring at the fastest possible rate!! A government system provides no competition and no incentive to care and improve each day.

As a liberal you'll find that over your brainwashed head.

That little fairy tale needs to be put to rest.

Without consumer protections quality and safety standards drop like anvils off a cliff.

Buyers have no real choice.

For example, look at the lack of standards we have for elected officials.

And competition is wiped out with deregulation Invariably a monopoly ends up running the whole market. Maybe you're too young to remember the AT&T breakup.

 

[dblack]

If you want a good car you only buy a good car and the bad car companies go out of business, if you want good care you only buy good care and those who don't provide good care go out of business!

Capitalism is the best way to improve the quality of caring at the fastest possible rate!! A government system provides no competition and no incentive to care and improve each day.

As a liberal you'll find that over your brainwashed head.

That little fairy tale needs to be put to rest.

Without consumer protections quality and safety standards drop like anvils off a cliff.

Without consumer 'protections' there are no mandated standards. That's the point. People are free to seek out the level of quality that best fits their own budget and preferences, instead of being forced to conform to yours.

And competition is wiped out with deregulation Invariably a monopoly ends up running the whole market. Maybe you're too young to remember the AT&T breakup.

Little fairy tale, indeed. In reality, monopolies are exceedingly rare in free markets. When and where the exist, they almost always enjoy sanction from the state. Most monopolies and cartels are maintained via active collusion with government (eg PPACA), not in spite of it.

 

[Grandma]

If you want a good car you only buy a good car and the bad car companies go out of business, if you want good care you only buy good care and those who don't provide good care go out of business!

Capitalism is the best way to improve the quality of caring at the fastest possible rate!! A government system provides no competition and no incentive to care and improve each day.

As a liberal you'll find that over your brainwashed head.

That little fairy tale needs to be put to rest.

Without consumer protections quality and safety standards drop like anvils off a cliff.

Without consumer 'protections' there are no mandated standards. That's the point. People are free to seek out the level of quality that best fits their own budget and preferences, instead of being forced to conform to yours.

And competition is wiped out with deregulation Invariably a monopoly ends up running the whole market. Maybe you're too young to remember the AT&T breakup.

Little fairy tale, indeed. In reality, monopolies are exceedingly rare in free markets. When and where the exist, they almost always enjoy sanction from the state. Most monopolies and cartels are maintained via active collusion with government (eg PPACA), not in spite of it.

Do you think that insurance lobbies would skulk away quietly?

 

[Dragonlady]

Little fairy tale, indeed. In reality, monopolies are exceedingly rare in free markets. When and where the exist, they almost always enjoy sanction from the state. Most monopolies and cartels are maintained via active collusion with government (eg PPACA), not in spite of it.

I strongly disagree with the whole concept that single payer is dangerously coercive. In fact, it is the cheapest route possible and since everyone in the nation is part of it, there is no coercion whatsoever, but then Canadians aren't raised to fear their government is out to take away their freedoms at every turn. We are in no way paranoid about our government.

People have government funded insurance coverage from the moment they're born until the moment they die. There is no coercion. No one will put you in jail if you don't participate.

 

[dblack]

Little fairy tale, indeed. In reality, monopolies are exceedingly rare in free markets. When and where the exist, they almost always enjoy sanction from the state. Most monopolies and cartels are maintained via active collusion with government (eg PPACA), not in spite of it.

I strongly disagree with the whole concept that single payer is dangerously coercive. In fact, it is the cheapest route possible and since everyone in the nation is part of it, there is no coercion whatsoever ...

Could you please define 'coercion' as you're using it? I know of no definition that would exclude law enforcement. As to the rest of it, for good or bad, the US isn't Canada.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Without consumer protections quality and safety standards drop like anvils off a cliff.

under capitalism you are obviuously free to buy the most quality and safety possible. The products with the least safety and quality are the first ones to go bankrupt; the ones with the most safety and quality are the first ones to make a huge profit. What IQ must you have to not know that????????? Ans: a liberal intelligence

Buyers have no real choice.

dear an average supermarket has 12,000 different items for sale!!!!!!!
a liberals intelligence for sure. 100% pure ignorance!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I strongly disagree with the whole concept that single payer is dangerously coercive. In fact, it is the cheapest route.

well then you and Joseph Stalin must want it in every industry!!
See why we are positive a liberal will be slow, so very very slow!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I strongly disagree with the whole concept that single payer is dangerously coercive.

this is because you are very very slow which is very very typical for a liberal. Single payer provides no incentives for consumers to shop and for providers to innovate in terms of price and quality.

Joseph Stalin and many others tried communism; they acheived about 25% of our standard of living, and that was only because they copied everything from the USA. Sorry

 

[Dragonlady]

Could you please define 'coercion' as you're using it? I know of no definition that would exclude law enforcement. As to the rest of it, for good or bad, the US isn't Canada.

If every person in the land is born into a world where universal health care is funded by taxes and not by insurance, how is the system coercive? If companies know that a portion of their taxes, say 1/2 of one percent of their entire payroll up to $200,000, and 1% on the amount over $200,000 and that is simply part of the government's charge for you to do business in this state, then how is it coercive?

I know Americans are hugely paranoid about government whereas Canadians will just say "fuck you, we're never voting for you again". They did that to the party which signed the NAFTA Agreement in the very next election. The Progressive Conservative Party pissed the whole country off by giving us NAFTA and an 8% VAT known as the Goods and Services Tax. The next election the party went from a 206 seat majority to holding 4 seats. That's not enough for official party status.

Canadians did it to the Liberal Party of Canada in the 2003 Election after a huge scandal where Liberal bagmen funnelled millions of $$$ to the businesses of defeated party hacks. The Liberals are invoking the name of the greatest Liberal Prime Minister in history, by running the son of Pierre Elliott Trudeau as party leader, but it may be too little too late.

That's how we treat parties who screw us over. Americans could learn from that.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

If every person in the land is born into a world where universal health care is funded by taxes and not by insurance, how is the system coercive?

dear, if everyone has to stand in the same bread line it is very very coercive. You want to be free to shop for the best and you want providers free to innovate and so offer the best.

Canada works a little because they can steal everything from us while having a soviet no incentive system that produces nothing on its own.
How can that be over your head????????

 

[dblack]

Could you please define 'coercion' as you're using it? I know of no definition that would exclude law enforcement. As to the rest of it, for good or bad, the US isn't Canada.

If every person in the land is born into a world where universal health care is funded by taxes and not by insurance, how is the system coercive?

Taxation is coercive by nature. Otherwise it we'd call it 'donation'.

 

[jasonnfree]

Without consumer protections quality and safety standards drop like anvils off a cliff.

under capitalism you are obviuously free to buy the most quality and safety possible. The products with the least safety and quality are the first ones to go bankrupt; the ones with the most safety and quality are the first ones to make a huge profit. What IQ must you have to not know that????????? Ans: a liberal intelligence

Buyers have no real choice.

dear an average supermarket has 12,000 different items for sale!!!!!!!
a liberals intelligence for sure. 100% pure ignorance!!

Ford didn't go bankrupt after calculating that it was cheaper to make Pintos with unsafe gas tanks and get sued, than it was to fix the gas tanks and to hell with the people that would die. Ford's still in business.