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I would prefer a system that didn't give me the option of a) getting put in a cage by armed people with badges or b) sending away 30%+ of my money (aka my time and labor is being owned). If some people want to get together privately and invest in some sort of insurance for their twilight years, fine by me, just don't force me to participate if I don't want to.
And when their 401k's are wiped out by crooks on Wall Street just as they getting ready to retire, and now they are wiped out, tough shit!
There were many more financial panics in the 19th century than the 20th century. And they were deeper and longer. And they threw many millions of people into poverty. The economy was in constant upheaval.
No thanks. I'd rather not go back to those days.
You act as if governments didn't exist then lol
This is perhaps the most frustrating thing about Libertarians. Their blindness to the fact they are speaking a different language to other people.
I hope this has been made crystal clear to you now based on the responses you have received. You are a poor communicator, like most Libertarians.
When you speak of a government forcing people "at gunpoint" to other Libertarians, they all instantly understand what you mean because you all spend a lot of time talking about the underlying principle behind that rhetorical shortcut. Volumes and volumes and years and years and years of discussion in the tiny Libertarian community are behind that phrase.
But "at gunpoint" is like an inside joke. If you tell it to someone outside the group, they don't get it. It falls flat. They sort of get the overarching idea, but they do not have the years and years and years of discussion as background.
So why not ask for a clarification ?
As for your comments about human nature.
Let me list a few things the "Stateless" society achieved without the state during the nearly 10,000 years before the advent of a Central Government. 1. Writing 2. The Plow 3. Domestication of plants 4. Domestication of animials 5. Discovery of fire 6. Navagation 7. Architecture 8. Tools 9. The Wheel 10. Irrigation 11. Permanent villages 12. Metallurgy 13. Art 14. Music 15. Language 16. Mathematics 17. Money, Barter, & Trade 18. Religon 19. Medical Treatment 20. Governement & Law
Please tell me why the lack of an entire society in my viewpoint means it doesn't work? There are no perfect panarchies either so by that logic our current government ignores human nature. All pieces of a libertarian ideal society been tried. I'm more of an anarcho-capitalist more than a libertarian, but if we are going to have a government, they have the best of it.
I see you were careful to use the words Central Government, and not just Government in general. That, to me, is an admission we do need government to achieve great things.
So you think feudal states are superior, eh? Slavery, too, I guess.
And for an ancient city, the chief IS the central government. And he was about as dictatorial as it gets. Talk about at spearpoint!
I don't think you have put much thought into your philosophy.
And when their 401k's are wiped out by crooks on Wall Street just as they getting ready to retire, and now they are wiped out, tough shit!
There were many more financial panics in the 19th century than the 20th century. And they were deeper and longer. And they threw many millions of people into poverty. The economy was in constant upheaval.
No thanks. I'd rather not go back to those days.
You act as if governments didn't exist then lol
We had a government. A very weak one. That's the point. A weak government which let crooks run wild, and let people starve in the streets. Your good moral society never existed, and never will. You have no clue of human nature.
So why not ask for a clarification ?
As for your comments about human nature.
Let me list a few things the "Stateless" society achieved without the state during the nearly 10,000 years before the advent of a Central Government. 1. Writing 2. The Plow 3. Domestication of plants 4. Domestication of animials 5. Discovery of fire 6. Navagation 7. Architecture 8. Tools 9. The Wheel 10. Irrigation 11. Permanent villages 12. Metallurgy 13. Art 14. Music 15. Language 16. Mathematics 17. Money, Barter, & Trade 18. Religon 19. Medical Treatment 20. Governement & Law
Please tell me why the lack of an entire society in my viewpoint means it doesn't work? There are no perfect panarchies either so by that logic our current government ignores human nature. All pieces of a libertarian ideal society been tried. I'm more of an anarcho-capitalist more than a libertarian, but if we are going to have a government, they have the best of it.
I see you were careful to use the words Central Government, and not just Government in general. That, to me, is an admission we do need government to achieve great things.
So you think feudal states are superior, eh? Slavery, too, I guess.
And for an ancient city, the chief IS the central government. And he was about as dictatorial as it gets. Talk about at spearpoint!
I don't think you have put much thought into your philosophy.
My levels of disdain for the government do tend to grow with the size of the government, because the larger the government, generally the more liberties eroded.
Most arguments devolve into a) hitler comparisons or b) slavery talk.
I feel that I am already a slave. Over 30% of my time and labor goes directly to another entity, against my will... they basically are "seizing hours from him(me) and directing him(me) to carry on various activities."
Your argument lacks substance. Your entire point is that because it hasn't been done (which is certainly arguable) it wouldn't work while ignoring the fact that all the terrible things you think government keeps from happening, are happening and have happened under the authority of the State.
I see you were careful to use the words Central Government, and not just Government in general. That, to me, is an admission we do need government to achieve great things.
So you think feudal states are superior, eh? Slavery, too, I guess.
And for an ancient city, the chief IS the central government. And he was about as dictatorial as it gets. Talk about at spearpoint!
I don't think you have put much thought into your philosophy.
My levels of disdain for the government do tend to grow with the size of the government, because the larger the government, generally the more liberties eroded.
Most arguments devolve into a) hitler comparisons or b) slavery talk.
I feel that I am already a slave. Over 30% of my time and labor goes directly to another entity, against my will... they basically are "seizing hours from him(me) and directing him(me) to carry on various activities."
Your argument lacks substance. Your entire point is that because it hasn't been done (which is certainly arguable) it wouldn't work while ignoring the fact that all the terrible things you think government keeps from happening, are happening and have happened under the authority of the State.
You were clearly arguing it has been done, and that we got irrigation and barter and all kinds of wonderful things from it. You fantasized these were all done in idyllic non-government conditions with no force being used against anybody.
And that's BULLSHIT.
Things were far more dictatorial in those times than they are here and now. Far more. And far more violent.
You are an ignorant fool.
You act as if governments didn't exist then lol
We had a government. A very weak one. That's the point. A weak government which let crooks run wild, and let people starve in the streets. Your good moral society never existed, and never will. You have no clue of human nature.
Again, these things happen with regularity now. Besides, arguing something happened in the past does not mean it will happen in the future, that is a logical fallacy.
We had a government. A very weak one. That's the point. A weak government which let crooks run wild, and let people starve in the streets. Your good moral society never existed, and never will. You have no clue of human nature.
Again, these things happen with regularity now. Besides, arguing something happened in the past does not mean it will happen in the future, that is a logical fallacy.
No, it is human nature, of which you seem to be incredibly ignorant just like every other Libertarian I have known.
My levels of disdain for the government do tend to grow with the size of the government, because the larger the government, generally the more liberties eroded.
Most arguments devolve into a) hitler comparisons or b) slavery talk.
I feel that I am already a slave. Over 30% of my time and labor goes directly to another entity, against my will... they basically are "seizing hours from him(me) and directing him(me) to carry on various activities."
Your argument lacks substance. Your entire point is that because it hasn't been done (which is certainly arguable) it wouldn't work while ignoring the fact that all the terrible things you think government keeps from happening, are happening and have happened under the authority of the State.
You were clearly arguing it has been done, and that we got irrigation and barter and all kinds of wonderful things from it. You fantasized these were all done in idyllic non-government conditions with no force being used against anybody. Libertarians frequently idealize the past like it was some kind of paradise.
And that's BULLSHIT.
Things were far more dictatorial in those times than they are here and now. Far more. And far more brutish, nasty, and short.
You are an ignorant fool.
That's what cracks me up about libertarians - they somehow think if their ideal Nirvana was to come into being that everything would be all right. However, in order for Libertarianism to truly work, those with the most money would have to be benevolent.
And we know how that works - just ask JD Rockefeller and Bill Gates who both fought tooth and nail against anti-trust laws..
Over 30% of my time and labor goes directly to another entity, against my will... they basically are "seizing hours from him(me) and directing him(me) to carry on various activities."
And you don't think employers build that into salaries? I have discussed this with many employers over the years, and every single one of them - to a man and woman - has said if there was no income tax, then they'd adjust the salaries down...to a person...
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I am sure they would but the point is the amount of money I am earning, the point is the percentage of my time and labor that belongs to me. If you are taking 30% of the product that is a result of my time and labor you are effectively taking my time and directing me to complete various activities at your leisure, using the threat of violence to keep me from breaking the mold. You know, if the slave didn't do the work and I wasn't able to benefit from his labor, I would punish him. Violently.
So if you decide not to go to work, somebody is going to beat you up?? Really?
So if you decide not to go to work, somebody is going to beat you up?? Really?
No if I don't pay the taxes somebody is going to through me in a cage. If I resist the cage, yes, I will likely be beat up, maybe shot, maybe electrocuted. I suppose I could stop working and have no sustenance and die.
If you're a champion of Ben Franklin, he called it. A decent society has a tax system. End of story...
I cannot speak for him, buit I can speak of one example for me:
Pay taxes to support the welfare state.
So you're NOT going to use Social Security when you are retired? So you're AGAINST corporations out-sourcing? So when companies and corporations downsize, all those people are just suppose to what? Join the army (if they're capable)? Become migrant workers or indentured servants? Just leave the country? Just commit ritual suicide?
Do you base your statement on what's been going on in this country in the last 30 years, or do you just parrot slogans and mantras from the right wing?
I would prefer a system that didn't give me the option of a) getting put in a cage by armed people with badges or b) sending away 30%+ of my money (aka my time and labor is being owned). If some people want to get together privately and invest in some sort of insurance for their twilight years, fine by me, just don't force me to participate if I don't want to. While pretending these things you advocate work, it is worth mentioning that the money also is used to kill thousands of people every year among other heinous crimes.
You asked for an example of what the government has forced me to do "at gunpoint" that is against my moral/social/economic values.I cannot speak for him, buit I can speak of one example for me:
Pay taxes to support the welfare state.
So you're NOT going to use Social Security when you are retired? So you're AGAINST corporations out-sourcing? So when companies and corporations downsize, all those people are just suppose to what? Join the army (if they're capable)? Become migrant workers or indentured servants? Just leave the country? Just commit ritual suicide?
Do you base your statement on what's been going on in this country in the last 30 years, or do you just parrot slogans and mantras from the right wing?
I gave one.
You asked for an example of what the government has forced me to do "at gunpoint" that is against my moral/social/economic values.So you're NOT going to use Social Security when you are retired? So you're AGAINST corporations out-sourcing? So when companies and corporations downsize, all those people are just suppose to what? Join the army (if they're capable)? Become migrant workers or indentured servants? Just leave the country? Just commit ritual suicide?
Do you base your statement on what's been going on in this country in the last 30 years, or do you just parrot slogans and mantras from the right wing?
I gave one.
So you've never been unemployed? And you're never going to grow old and retire? Newsflash for you: Enron, the S&L scandal, the Wall St. debacle of late.....these affected people just like you who did all the right things, invested wisely, etc....and got SCREWED. So again, what's your answer? Or are you just going to continue to blow smoke?
I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.
I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.
Are you Syrian?
Over 30% of my time and labor goes directly to another entity, against my will... they basically are "seizing hours from him(me) and directing him(me) to carry on various activities."
And you don't think employers build that into salaries? I have discussed this with many employers over the years, and every single one of them - to a man and woman - has said if there was no income tax, then they'd adjust the salaries down...to a person...
I am sure they would but the point is the amount of money I am earning, the point is the percentage of my time and labor that belongs to me. If you are taking 30% of the product that is a result of my time and labor you are effectively taking my time and directing me to complete various activities at your leisure, using the threat of violence to keep me from breaking the mold. You know, if the slave didn't do the work and I wasn't able to benefit from his labor, I would punish him. Violently.
34 views and zero replies. I guess it doesn't bother people. Maybe because the gun isn't actually in your face
Forced to let them take upwards of 30% of my income, therefor them taking ownership over 30% of my time and labor.
There are more but I'll keep it simple. Basically, anything I want to to that isn't harming other people, yet I am prohibited from doing.
And just how do you expect for all the utilities and resources that are the "commons" to be used by you to be paid for? Taxes pay for the military, roads, water purification and distribution, emergency medical treatment, food inspection, quality enforcement for all the products you use, etc., etc.
Your last statement is (again) vague...but can only be applied to wanting to smoke marijuana as a recreation. Well, alcohol was once prohibited...now it's not. It's up to the PEOPLE to change the laws.....and depending upon detrimental effect to parts of the populace, "bad" laws eventually get changed.
So essentially, your "at gunpoint" statement is at best an exaggeration.
There are countless examples of private roads/utilities/etc functioning just fine. There is no reason a power company can't strike up a private contract with citizens to provide them power. In fact, the majority of roads are paid for with private money (tax payer money) and then built by private companies. The government is basically a middle man.
As for the rest of your statements, sure marijuana could be one example. Maybe I prefer meth? or crack? or riding without my seatbelt? or smoking indoors? or not killing people overseas to make dude's I don't even know rich? or maybe I'm just fine with my lightbulb, I could literally go on forever.
