Does it bother you that our entire government is based on forcing people via gunpoint

And you don't think employers build that into salaries? I have discussed this with many employers over the years, and every single one of them - to a man and woman - has said if there was no income tax, then they'd adjust the salaries down...to a person...

I am sure they would but the point is the amount of money I am earning, the point is the percentage of my time and labor that belongs to me. If you are taking 30% of the product that is a result of my time and labor you are effectively taking my time and directing me to complete various activities at your leisure, using the threat of violence to keep me from breaking the mold. You know, if the slave didn't do the work and I wasn't able to benefit from his labor, I would punish him. Violently.

You are a member of society. You are able to accomplish more in a strong society than you can accomplish individually. You are expected to pay taxes to contribute to that society

YEah I'm aware how things work and I pay my taxes. It doesn't mean I can't be opposed to them.
 
So.....you dont think it is fair or moral, that we force murderers, rapists and thieves to conform to our laws by point of a gun?? Um...you ever seen Training Day? "A wolf to catch a wolf"? You should ride along with some street cops sometime. Then see if a gun is a necessary tool to protect your neighbors from some of the insane and violent people in America.

Where did I ever say we should get rid of guns?
 
34 views and zero replies. I guess it doesn't bother people. Maybe because the gun isn't actually in your face

No, because there is no ‘gun.’

You could be just some weird troll trying to get a rise out of people.

Otherwise you post like an ignorant, naïve libertarian, who perceives all government as ‘bad.’

I don't know that all government is bad, but government is force and force is the opposite of freedom. Not saying that all freedoms are good either. Morality is the issue and I don't think forcing people to do things at gunpoint, which is where you will find yourself if you resist any of the government's orders, is not a good start to being a moral society.
 
I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

Are you Syrian?

Negative. I'd ask you if you're Marxist but clearly you're a Statist.

People like you suffer from a malady I chose to call Hyperbolic Mental Degradation (or the abbreviated HMD for short). You live in a mental construct of your own creation (probably with a little help from talk radio and a few web sites like WND and NewsMax). Your grip on reality has slipped to the point that you're living in a fantasy world. That's the bad news.

The good news is I believe I have a cure for your problem. You need to travel to Syria or any one of numerous other countries in the world where REAL tyranny and REAL tyrants exist. You and some of your like-minded friends need to experience real political oppression first hand. You may not all live to tell about it, but that will just make your repatriation to America and your sincere stories of being grateful to return to the land of the free and the home of the brave all the more convincing.

Let us know when you get back.
 
Government has restricted the right to force for itself. Tough, LL. Go complain to the libertarians' whose government would be to shoot you in the face if you complained.

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.
 
Government has restricted the right to force for itself. Tough, LL. Go complain to the libertarians' whose government would be to shoot you in the face if you complained.

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

That's certainly not true as many states allow people to stand their ground.

Jake you seem unable to discuss things at all you just keep telling everyone how things already work. We are all aware of present laws and restrictions, that isn't the question we are discussing.
 
When the libertarians' government will outnumber and outgun you significantly, LL, you know you are talking nonsense.

I can fully discuss reality. Can you?
 
Are you Syrian?

Negative. I'd ask you if you're Marxist but clearly you're a Statist.

People like you suffer from a malady I chose to call Hyperbolic Mental Degradation (or the abbreviated HMD for short). You live in a mental construct of your own creation (probably with a little help from talk radio and a few web sites like WND and NewsMax). Your grip on reality has slipped to the point that you're living in a fantasy world. That's the bad news.

The good news is I believe I have a cure for your problem. You need to travel to Syria or any one of numerous other countries in the world where REAL tyranny and REAL tyrants exist. You and some of your like-minded friends need to experience real political oppression first hand. You may not all live to tell about it, but that will just make your repatriation to America and your sincere stories of being grateful to return to the land of the free and the home of the brave all the more convincing.

Let us know when you get back.


Ah I see. Because I don't have X degree of tyranny in order to call it tyranny. I should try being gang raped if I think being raped is bad?

You see, I see reality for what it is, I pay taxes and follow most laws, mainly because I'm too cowardly to spend the rest of my life in a cage to further my beliefs (not that it would have any noticeable impact on politics). Just because I want things to be different or have a different idea of what is just than you, doesn't make me unaware of reality. This is a discussion board.

We are not the freest place in the world. When you don't even have a right to your own property or to privacy on that property, you are certainly not free. Free societies don't punish people for doing things that have no victim.

Wanna talk about you being a Statist and not a Marxist now?
 
You asked for an example of what the government has forced me to do "at gunpoint" that is against my moral/social/economic values.
I gave one.
:dunno:

So you've never been unemployed? And you're never going to grow old and retire? Newsflash for you: Enron, the S&L scandal, the Wall St. debacle of late.....these affected people just like you who did all the right things, invested wisely, etc....and got SCREWED. So again, what's your answer? Or are you just going to continue to blow smoke?

What is your point? Because the private sector has fucked up we should be forced rely completely on government without other options? As if government doesn't fuck up? Have you seen the social security account lately?

What is this? Tweedledum and Tweedledee tag team? BOTH of you keep stubbornly blowing smoke while avoiding reality and facts in favor of your libertarian fantasies.

But hope springs eternal, so I'll dumb it down for you: your Shooter buddy acts as if he is totally independent of the society he lives in and yet he's forced to pay taxes. I demonstrated how that is absurd and asked him simple questions, which he won't answer for fear of contradicting his ideology.

Now here you come with some bullshit about being "forced" to rely "completely" on gov't without other options. NOWHERE in this exchange did I insinuate, advocate, imply or suggest such. What YOU are doing is a-typical of the intellectually dishonest libertarian/neocon/teabagger...when you can't logically and factually back up your assertions and statements, you distort and lie about what others have said or you try to change the narrative.

You failed.

Oh and FYI, there's nothing wrong with SocSec for another few decades, and even then there would only have to be a slight adjustment to keep it solvent. Maybe if gov't wouldn't use it to prop up the federal coffers when they do stupid things like fight two wars off the books or put up a prescription drug plan without paying for it (while letting the pharma corps practically write the rules), then there wouldn't be ANY problem with Soc Sec at all.

But hey, let's just trash the whole thing and put everyone at the mercy of the banks and corporations and worship at the alter of the free market....oh wait, been there and done that...which is why this country is fucked up now!
 
Negative. I'd ask you if you're Marxist but clearly you're a Statist.

People like you suffer from a malady I chose to call Hyperbolic Mental Degradation (or the abbreviated HMD for short). You live in a mental construct of your own creation (probably with a little help from talk radio and a few web sites like WND and NewsMax). Your grip on reality has slipped to the point that you're living in a fantasy world. That's the bad news.

The good news is I believe I have a cure for your problem. You need to travel to Syria or any one of numerous other countries in the world where REAL tyranny and REAL tyrants exist. You and some of your like-minded friends need to experience real political oppression first hand. You may not all live to tell about it, but that will just make your repatriation to America and your sincere stories of being grateful to return to the land of the free and the home of the brave all the more convincing.

Let us know when you get back.


Ah I see. Because I don't have X degree of tyranny in order to call it tyranny. I should try being gang raped if I think being raped is bad?

You see, I see reality for what it is, I pay taxes and follow most laws, mainly because I'm too cowardly to spend the rest of my life in a cage to further my beliefs (not that it would have any noticeable impact on politics). Just because I want things to be different or have a different idea of what is just than you, doesn't make me unaware of reality. This is a discussion board.

We are not the freest place in the world. When you don't even have a right to your own property or to privacy on that property, you are certainly not free. Free societies don't punish people for doing things that have no victim.

Wanna talk about you being a Statist and not a Marxist now?

1. LL, you do not live in a tyranny, and you do live in one of the freest places in the world.

2. If you don't believe that, move to Somalia.

3. You have every right to believe differently.

3. You do not have a right to your own facts and your own common knowledge.
 
What is this? Tweedledum and Tweedledee tag team? BOTH of you keep stubbornly blowing smoke while avoiding reality and facts in favor of your libertarian fantasies.

But hope springs eternal, so I'll dumb it down for you: your Shooter buddy acts as if he is totally independent of the society he lives in and yet he's forced to pay taxes. I demonstrated how that is absurd and asked him simple questions, which he won't answer for fear of contradicting his ideology.

Now here you come with some bullshit about being "forced" to rely "completely" on gov't without other options. NOWHERE in this exchange did I insinuate, advocate, imply or suggest such. What YOU are doing is a-typical of the intellectually dishonest libertarian/neocon/teabagger...when you can't logically and factually back up your assertions and statements, you distort and lie about what others have said or you try to change the narrative.

You failed.

Oh and FYI, there's nothing wrong with SocSec for another few decades, and even then there would only have to be a slight adjustment to keep it solvent. Maybe if gov't wouldn't use it to prop up the federal coffers when they do stupid things like fight two wars off the books or put up a prescription drug plan without paying for it (while letting the pharma corps practically write the rules), then there wouldn't be ANY problem with Soc Sec at all.

But hey, let's just trash the whole thing and put everyone at the mercy of the banks and corporations and worship at the alter of the free market....oh wait, been there and done that...which is why this country is fucked up now!

But I am forced to participate and rely. Money for social security (among things like killing innocent people overseas, spying on people, assassinations, welfare) is being forcibly taken out of my wages. It is money that I earned with my labor that I don't have the ability to invest as I see fit.

Just FYI, SocSec is paying out more than it is taking in, right now, as we speak. They call that a deficit my man.
 
People like you suffer from a malady I chose to call Hyperbolic Mental Degradation (or the abbreviated HMD for short). You live in a mental construct of your own creation (probably with a little help from talk radio and a few web sites like WND and NewsMax). Your grip on reality has slipped to the point that you're living in a fantasy world. That's the bad news.

The good news is I believe I have a cure for your problem. You need to travel to Syria or any one of numerous other countries in the world where REAL tyranny and REAL tyrants exist. You and some of your like-minded friends need to experience real political oppression first hand. You may not all live to tell about it, but that will just make your repatriation to America and your sincere stories of being grateful to return to the land of the free and the home of the brave all the more convincing.

Let us know when you get back.


Ah I see. Because I don't have X degree of tyranny in order to call it tyranny. I should try being gang raped if I think being raped is bad?

You see, I see reality for what it is, I pay taxes and follow most laws, mainly because I'm too cowardly to spend the rest of my life in a cage to further my beliefs (not that it would have any noticeable impact on politics). Just because I want things to be different or have a different idea of what is just than you, doesn't make me unaware of reality. This is a discussion board.

We are not the freest place in the world. When you don't even have a right to your own property or to privacy on that property, you are certainly not free. Free societies don't punish people for doing things that have no victim.

Wanna talk about you being a Statist and not a Marxist now?

1. LL, you do not live in a tyranny, and you do live in one of the freest places in the world.

2. If you don't believe that, move to Somalia.

3. You have every right to believe differently.

3. You do not have a right to your own facts and your own common knowledge.

1. It is a matter of opinion. If tyranny is an oppressive government, then I think our government is tyrannical. We can agree to disagree. Just FYI, being "one of the freest places in the world" doesn't mean you are free. I mean, Iran is more free than Syria.

2. I would move, maybe (the USA is bouncy I enjoy it), but I'd have to give up a chunk of my money to the Government or they won't let me leave. gunpoint.....

3. Thanks bro

4. If they are facts, everyone has a right to them, you should try using them sometime.
 
What is this? Tweedledum and Tweedledee tag team? BOTH of you keep stubbornly blowing smoke while avoiding reality and facts in favor of your libertarian fantasies.

But hope springs eternal, so I'll dumb it down for you: your Shooter buddy acts as if he is totally independent of the society he lives in and yet he's forced to pay taxes. I demonstrated how that is absurd and asked him simple questions, which he won't answer for fear of contradicting his ideology.

Now here you come with some bullshit about being "forced" to rely "completely" on gov't without other options. NOWHERE in this exchange did I insinuate, advocate, imply or suggest such. What YOU are doing is a-typical of the intellectually dishonest libertarian/neocon/teabagger...when you can't logically and factually back up your assertions and statements, you distort and lie about what others have said or you try to change the narrative.

You failed.

Oh and FYI, there's nothing wrong with SocSec for another few decades, and even then there would only have to be a slight adjustment to keep it solvent. Maybe if gov't wouldn't use it to prop up the federal coffers when they do stupid things like fight two wars off the books or put up a prescription drug plan without paying for it (while letting the pharma corps practically write the rules), then there wouldn't be ANY problem with Soc Sec at all.

But hey, let's just trash the whole thing and put everyone at the mercy of the banks and corporations and worship at the alter of the free market....oh wait, been there and done that...which is why this country is fucked up now!

But I am forced to participate and rely. Money for social security (among things like killing innocent people overseas, spying on people, assassinations, welfare) is being forcibly taken out of my wages. It is money that I earned with my labor that I don't have the ability to invest as I see fit.

Just FYI, SocSec is paying out more than it is taking in, right now, as we speak. They call that a deficit my man.

Once again, you avoid my original question to repeat your blather.

Bottom line: no one is FORCING you to stay here, toodles. You don't like it, LEAVE. That's one of the perks of being an American.

But,

If you're going to stay, then stop bitching like a little school girl and GET ACTIVE IN YOUR LOCAL POLITICS TO CHANGE THE LAWS.

As the exchange shows, YOU are living in a fantasy world where you want to get paid for your labor yet utilize all the creature comfort that this gov't provides THROUGH TAXES, but without YOU contributing to those services.

Your response: some BS about private companies replacing the "commons". Now stop and think toodles, if YOU are bitching and moaning now about paying taxes, wtf do you think you'll be paying when all of the "commons" are divided up among various private companies and corporations?

So your subject title is as I said, an exaggeration and distortion of reality.

Bottom line: selfish little cretins like yourself need to go to Somalia....a libertarian paradise.

And I already explained to you that Soc Sec will be solvent for the next decade or two with a minor adjustment to keep it solvent. People have to press their representatives to adjust the laws so that Soc Sec is NOT used as a piggy bank for other gov't projects (as I mentioned previously).

But do ignore what I write and keep repeating your libertarian mantras in various forms, as it's all you've got.
 
I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

That's the whole point of a government...projection of force to defend against outside enemies and keep domestic order.

While a good society will use lesser means, such as societal pressure, non-lethal force to restrain contain, economic sanctions (fines, penalties, etc) at the end there is always the threat of lethal force. You cannot have a society otherwise.

That's right FDR showed Americans how. He sent Japanese, Italians and Germans to concentration cmps. Oh, that's right they were called inturnment camps. Very much like the 'FEMA" camps Oblamer has set up and until now has not employed. Guess Oblamer is waiting until he has made it against the law to own a gun. His friend Cuomo has taken the shot and look what's happening to him. Will Cuomo go the way of his corrupt Dem friends.
 
Ah I see. Because I don't have X degree of tyranny in order to call it tyranny. I should try being gang raped if I think being raped is bad?

You see, I see reality for what it is, I pay taxes and follow most laws, mainly because I'm too cowardly to spend the rest of my life in a cage to further my beliefs (not that it would have any noticeable impact on politics). Just because I want things to be different or have a different idea of what is just than you, doesn't make me unaware of reality. This is a discussion board.

We are not the freest place in the world. When you don't even have a right to your own property or to privacy on that property, you are certainly not free. Free societies don't punish people for doing things that have no victim.

Wanna talk about you being a Statist and not a Marxist now?

1. LL, you do not live in a tyranny, and you do live in one of the freest places in the world.

2. If you don't believe that, move to Somalia.

3. You have every right to believe differently.

4. You do not have a right to your own facts and your own common knowledge.

1. It is a matter of opinion. If tyranny is an oppressive government, then I think our government is tyrannical. We can agree to disagree. Just FYI, being "one of the freest places in the world" doesn't mean you are free. I mean, Iran is more free than Syria.

2. I would move, maybe (the USA is bouncy I enjoy it), but I'd have to give up a chunk of my money to the Government or they won't let me leave. gunpoint.....

3. Thanks bro

4. If they are facts, everyone has a right to them, you should try using them sometime.

1. Not all opinions are equal in reality. Our government is not oppressive, not tyrannical. You have access to redress with government. "Free" does not mean you get to do whatever you want; that word is "irresponsible".

2. How do you have to give up your money to move from the USA? You are wrong about that.

3. You are welcome.

4. The facts are the same to everyone, so you don't get to interpret them from the accepted definition.
 
I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

That's the whole point of a government...projection of force to defend against outside enemies and keep domestic order.

While a good society will use lesser means, such as societal pressure, non-lethal force to restrain contain, economic sanctions (fines, penalties, etc) at the end there is always the threat of lethal force. You cannot have a society otherwise.

That's right FDR showed Americans how. He sent Japanese, Italians and Germans to concentration cmps. Oh, that's right they were called inturnment camps. Very much like the 'FEMA" camps Oblamer has set up and until now has not employed. Guess Oblamer is waiting until he has made it against the law to own a gun. His friend Cuomo has taken the shot and look what's happening to him. Will Cuomo go the way of his corrupt Dem friends.

I understand the FEMA personnel are looking for you right now. Boo! They're behind you!! Run!!!
 
I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

That's pretty much how government is defined - the monopoly on the use of force. If you're against the use of force against innocent people, then you're against government.
 

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