Does it bother you that our entire government is based on forcing people via gunpoint

[konradv]

You can certainly have society without government lol. In fact, a "good" society wouldn't need threats of violence to subordinate the citizens because "good" people behave morally.

How do achieve this shift in human nature in which everone is "good"?!?! You're as loony as the Marxists.

How am I loony? Where did I ever say that people would all of a sudden become good because of something? lol.

What was this all about then?

You can certainly have society without government lol. In fact, a "good" society wouldn't need threats of violence to subordinate the citizens because "good" people behave morally.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow...

George Washington and the founding fathers and the Shays and Whiskey rebellions?

 

[M14 Shooter]

How do achieve this shift in human nature in which everone is "good"?!?! You're as loony as the Marxists.

How am I loony? Where did I ever say that people would all of a sudden become good because of something? lol.

What was this all about then?

You can certainly have society without government lol. In fact, a "good" society wouldn't need threats of violence to subordinate the citizens because "good" people behave morally.

This is true - in world where everyone lived within their rights and respected the rights of others, there's be no need for government.

 

[taichiliberal]

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

 

[M14 Shooter]

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

I cannot speak for him, buit I can speak of one example for me:
Pay taxes to support the welfare state.

 

[konradv]

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

He's just parroting libertarian talking points. If you notice, he didn't offer to say how a minarchist government would enforce the few rules it did have. Either that or he's an anarchist that doesn't believe in any government at all.

 

[konradv]

How am I loony? Where did I ever say that people would all of a sudden become good because of something? lol.

What was this all about then?

You can certainly have society without government lol. In fact, a "good" society wouldn't need threats of violence to subordinate the citizens because "good" people behave morally.

This is true - in world where everyone lived within their rights and respected the rights of others, there's be no need for government.

While that may be true, most of us live in the real world and my question stands, "how do you enforce laws, if someone absolutely refuses to comply?"

 

[LibertyLemming]

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

Forced to let them take upwards of 30% of my income, therefor them taking ownership over 30% of my time and labor.

There are more but I'll keep it simple. Basically, anything I want to to that isn't harming other people, yet I am prohibited from doing.

 

[pinqy]

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

That's the whole point of a government...projection of force to defend against outside enemies and keep domestic order.

While a good society will use lesser means, such as societal pressure, non-lethal force to restrain contain, economic sanctions (fines, penalties, etc) at the end there is always the threat of lethal force. You cannot have a society otherwise.

You can certainly have society without government lol. In fact, a "good" society wouldn't need threats of violence to subordinate the citizens because "good" people behave morally.

First, you would need everyone to unanimously agree as to what is "moral."
Second, everyone would have to, at all times, act morally, whether or not it was in their best interests.
Third, you would still need a coordinating body to deal with outside threats and natural disasters....and that's a government.

Since I doubt points one and two are possible (especially as they have never occurred in the history of ever) I don't see how any pure anarchy would work.

 

[LibertyLemming]

What was this all about then?

You can certainly have society without government lol. In fact, a "good" society wouldn't need threats of violence to subordinate the citizens because "good" people behave morally.

This is true - in world where everyone lived within their rights and respected the rights of others, there's be no need for government.

While that may be true, most of us live in the real world and my question stands, "how do you enforce laws, if someone absolutely refuses to comply?"

I think I would prefer social justice to organized institutional forced justice. I would hope it would be more just in only going after people who actually cause harm. Doubtful with the lack of morality though, as previously mentioned. Still, I'll take my chance against some thugs.

 

[M14 Shooter]

What was this all about then?

You can certainly have society without government lol. In fact, a "good" society wouldn't need threats of violence to subordinate the citizens because "good" people behave morally.

This is true - in world where everyone lived within their rights and respected the rights of others, there's be no need for government.

While that may be true...

Thank you for agreeing with my position.

...most of us live in the real world and my question stands, "how do you enforce laws, if someone absolutely refuses to comply?"

Your question is not relevant to what I said.

 

[taichiliberal]

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

I cannot speak for him, buit I can speak of one example for me:
Pay taxes to support the welfare state.

So you're NOT going to use Social Security when you are retired? So you're AGAINST corporations out-sourcing? So when companies and corporations downsize, all those people are just suppose to what? Join the army (if they're capable)? Become migrant workers or indentured servants? Just leave the country? Just commit ritual suicide?

Do you base your statement on what's been going on in this country in the last 30 years, or do you just parrot slogans and mantras from the right wing?

 

[LibertyLemming]

Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

I cannot speak for him, buit I can speak of one example for me:
Pay taxes to support the welfare state.

So you're NOT going to use Social Security when you are retired? So you're AGAINST corporations out-sourcing? So when companies and corporations downsize, all those people are just suppose to what? Join the army (if they're capable)? Become migrant workers or indentured servants? Just leave the country? Just commit ritual suicide?

Do you base your statement on what's been going on in this country in the last 30 years, or do you just parrot slogans and mantras from the right wing?

I would prefer a system that didn't give me the option of a) getting put in a cage by armed people with badges or b) sending away 30%+ of my money (aka my time and labor is being owned). If some people want to get together privately and invest in some sort of insurance for their twilight years, fine by me, just don't force me to participate if I don't want to. While pretending these things you advocate work, it is worth mentioning that the money also is used to kill thousands of people every year among other heinous crimes.

 

[LoneLaugher]

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

r
Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

Forced to let them take upwards of 30% of my income, therefor them taking ownership over 30% of my time and labor.

There are more but I'll keep it simple. Basically, anything I want to to that isn't harming other people, yet I am prohibited from doing.

Awwwww. Poor baby doesn't want to pay taxes. He feels all forced and shit! Poor, poor baby.

 

[LibertyLemming]

r
Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

Forced to let them take upwards of 30% of my income, therefor them taking ownership over 30% of my time and labor.

There are more but I'll keep it simple. Basically, anything I want to to that isn't harming other people, yet I am prohibited from doing.

Awwwww. Poor baby doesn't want to pay taxes. He feels all forced and shit! Poor, poor baby.

It is nice when the really intellectual people show up with their well worded arguments.

 

[konradv]

This is true - in world where everyone lived within their rights and respected the rights of others, there's be no need for government.

While that may be true, most of us live in the real world and my question stands, "how do you enforce laws, if someone absolutely refuses to comply?"

I think I would prefer social justice to organized institutional forced justice. I would hope it would be more just in only going after people who actually cause harm. Doubtful with the lack of morality though, as previously mentioned. Still, I'll take my chance against some thugs.

That doesn't answer the question. What if someone refuses to comply with something you consider legitimate?

 

[taichiliberal]

I feel it is quite unjust and immoral to force people at gunpoint to follow any agenda, no matter how well intentioned or successful it may or may not be.

Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

Forced to let them take upwards of 30% of my income, therefor them taking ownership over 30% of my time and labor.

There are more but I'll keep it simple. Basically, anything I want to to that isn't harming other people, yet I am prohibited from doing.

And just how do you expect for all the utilities and resources that are the "commons" to be used by you to be paid for? Taxes pay for the military, roads, water purification and distribution, emergency medical treatment, food inspection, quality enforcement for all the products you use, etc., etc.

Your last statement is (again) vague...but can only be applied to wanting to smoke marijuana as a recreation. Well, alcohol was once prohibited...now it's not. It's up to the PEOPLE to change the laws.....and depending upon detrimental effect to parts of the populace, "bad" laws eventually get changed.

So essentially, your "at gunpoint" statement is at best an exaggeration.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

I cannot speak for him, buit I can speak of one example for me:
Pay taxes to support the welfare state.

So you're NOT going to use Social Security when you are retired? So you're AGAINST corporations out-sourcing? So when companies and corporations downsize, all those people are just suppose to what? Join the army (if they're capable)? Become migrant workers or indentured servants? Just leave the country? Just commit ritual suicide?

Do you base your statement on what's been going on in this country in the last 30 years, or do you just parrot slogans and mantras from the right wing?

You asked for an example of what the government has forced me to do "at gunpoint" that is against my moral/social/economic values.
I gave one.

 

[konradv]

This is true - in world where everyone lived within their rights and respected the rights of others, there's be no need for government.

While that may be true...

Thank you for agreeing with my position.

...most of us live in the real world and my question stands, "how do you enforce laws, if someone absolutely refuses to comply?"

Your question is not relevant to what I said.

Then what you said isn't relevant to the thread. The OP stated that he didn't like the government to use guns to further "any agenda". That's what I was talking about. If you're not, then you're just hijacking the thread.

 

[LibertyLemming]

Exactly what has the government forced YOU to do "at gunpoint" that is so against your moral, social and economic values that has you in such a state of angst?

Forced to let them take upwards of 30% of my income, therefor them taking ownership over 30% of my time and labor.

There are more but I'll keep it simple. Basically, anything I want to to that isn't harming other people, yet I am prohibited from doing.

And just how do you expect for all the utilities and resources that are the "commons" to be used by you to be paid for? Taxes pay for the military, roads, water purification and distribution, emergency medical treatment, food inspection, quality enforcement for all the products you use, etc., etc.

Your last statement is (again) vague...but can only be applied to wanting to smoke marijuana as a recreation. Well, alcohol was once prohibited...now it's not. It's up to the PEOPLE to change the laws.....and depending upon detrimental effect to parts of the populace, "bad" laws eventually get changed.

So essentially, your "at gunpoint" statement is at best an exaggeration.

There are countless examples of private roads/utilities/etc functioning just fine. There is no reason a power company can't strike up a private contract with citizens to provide them power. In fact, the majority of roads are paid for with private money (tax payer money) and then built by private companies. The government is basically a middle man.

As for the rest of your statements, sure marijuana could be one example. Maybe I prefer meth? or crack? or riding without my seatbelt? or smoking indoors? or not killing people overseas to make dude's I don't even know rich? or maybe I'm just fine with my lightbulb, I could literally go on forever.