Does SSDD have a point that the 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to radiative heat transfer

[Toddsterpatriot]

What violates what IR rule? Where?

your rule about back radiation.

The Sun does not violate any rule about back radiation.
Where did you get the idea that it did?

well the corona is hotter than the center, means it doesn't radiate back to the cooler center.

Wrong. All matter above 0K radiates in all directions.

let me know when you can get by this:


"Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object."

let me know when you can get by this:

Why do you feel that matter radiating in all directions ever violates the 2nd Law?

If you understood the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, you'd understand your error.

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object

Is that why energy can't move from the Sun to the Sun's corona? LOL!

 

[jc456]

your rule about back radiation.

The Sun does not violate any rule about back radiation.
Where did you get the idea that it did?

well the corona is hotter than the center, means it doesn't radiate back to the cooler center.

Wrong. All matter above 0K radiates in all directions.

let me know when you can get by this:


"Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object."

let me know when you can get by this:

Why do you feel that matter radiating in all directions ever violates the 2nd Law?

If you understood the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, you'd understand your error.

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object

Is that why energy can't move from the Sun to the Sun's corona? LOL!

wow the same old responses months later. How original of you.

first, get by the 2nd law statement. Let me know when you get there.


"Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object."

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Sun does not violate any rule about back radiation.
Where did you get the idea that it did?

well the corona is hotter than the center, means it doesn't radiate back to the cooler center.

Wrong. All matter above 0K radiates in all directions.

let me know when you can get by this:


"Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object."

let me know when you can get by this:

Why do you feel that matter radiating in all directions ever violates the 2nd Law?

If you understood the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, you'd understand your error.

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object

Is that why energy can't move from the Sun to the Sun's corona? LOL!

wow the same old responses months later. How original of you.

first, get by the 2nd law statement. Let me know when you get there.


"Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object."

first, get by the 2nd law statement.

There is nothing "to get by".

Radiation going in all directions doesn't violate the 2nd Law.

It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

2 identical objects, one at 150K and the other at 300K.
Both emit radiation in all directions. The warmer object emits more than the cooler object.
Initially, 2^4 as much (16 times as much).
The warmer cools and the cooler warms. No violation of SB or the 2nd Law.

Sorry that you're unable to understand.

 

[jc456]

well the corona is hotter than the center, means it doesn't radiate back to the cooler center.

Wrong. All matter above 0K radiates in all directions.

let me know when you can get by this:


"Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object."

let me know when you can get by this:

Why do you feel that matter radiating in all directions ever violates the 2nd Law?

If you understood the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, you'd understand your error.

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object

Is that why energy can't move from the Sun to the Sun's corona? LOL!

wow the same old responses months later. How original of you.

first, get by the 2nd law statement. Let me know when you get there.


"Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object."

first, get by the 2nd law statement.

There is nothing "to get by".

Radiation going in all directions doesn't violate the 2nd Law.

It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

2 identical objects, one at 150K and the other at 300K.
Both emit radiation in all directions. The warmer object emits more than the cooler object.
Initially, 2^4 as much (16 times as much).
The warmer cools and the cooler warms. No violation of SB or the 2nd Law.

Sorry that you're unable to understand.

no apology needed.

And you're right two objects can emit and it is normal. So?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Wrong. All matter above 0K radiates in all directions.

let me know when you can get by this:


"Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object."

let me know when you can get by this:

Why do you feel that matter radiating in all directions ever violates the 2nd Law?

If you understood the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, you'd understand your error.

Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object

Is that why energy can't move from the Sun to the Sun's corona? LOL!

wow the same old responses months later. How original of you.

first, get by the 2nd law statement. Let me know when you get there.


"Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object."

first, get by the 2nd law statement.

There is nothing "to get by".

Radiation going in all directions doesn't violate the 2nd Law.

It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow.

2 identical objects, one at 150K and the other at 300K.
Both emit radiation in all directions. The warmer object emits more than the cooler object.
Initially, 2^4 as much (16 times as much).
The warmer cools and the cooler warms. No violation of SB or the 2nd Law.

Sorry that you're unable to understand.

no apology needed.

And you're right two objects can emit and it is normal. So?

So SSDD's claim about photons is wrong.

 

[SSDD]

....I understand that even when the fellows who accidentally discovered CMB state that they were looking at RADIO waves...and discovered CMB via a radio wave...you can't accept the fact because you want it to be otherwise...

They are radio waves. Why do you feel that helps any of your claims or harms any of Wuwei's?

Wuwei is under the impression that they actually measured CMB...they didn't...they discovered it, but didn't actually measure the IR...they discovered CMB via an amplified resonance frequency...an amplified radio wave...not an actual measure of CMB...that came later with instruments designed for the purpose...which were cooled to temperatures very near absolute zero....

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

....I understand that even when the fellows who accidentally discovered CMB state that they were looking at RADIO waves...and discovered CMB via a radio wave...you can't accept the fact because you want it to be otherwise...

They are radio waves. Why do you feel that helps any of your claims or harms any of Wuwei's?

Wuwei is under the impression that they actually measured CMB...they didn't...they discovered it, but didn't actually measure the IR...they discovered CMB via an amplified resonance frequency...an amplified radio wave...not an actual measure of CMB...that came later with instruments designed for the purpose...which were cooled to temperatures very near absolute zero....

Wuwei is under the impression that they actually measured CMB...they didn't

They magically detected it even though it never hits the Earth.
One of your sillier claims.

they discovered CMB via an amplified resonance frequency...an amplified radio wave...

How do you amplify a radio wave if the wave refuses to hit the antenna?
Spell it out.

that came later with instruments designed for the purpose...which were cooled to temperatures very near absolute zero....

Photons traveling for billions of years that magically don't travel to the Earth's surface until an instrument is cool enough and the photons can magically "see" the cooler temperature before the Earth even existed.

Nice story.

 

[SSDD]

If you understood the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, you'd understand your error.

The SB law applies to black bodies and gray bodies....is a CO2 molecule either?

 

[SSDD]

They magically detected it even though it never hits the Earth.
One of your sillier claims.

They detected it via a resonance radio frequency...do you think it is not possible to detect a thing other than directly measuring the thing itself?

How do you amplify a radio wave if the wave refuses to hit the antenna?
Spell it out.

First, who ever said that the radio wave didn't hit the antenna? They were working with a radio antenna designed to detect radio waves...they detected a radio wave that was unrecognizable to them...after much testing by various scientists, it turned out to be a resonance frequency for CMB which was then directly measured.

It is just the sort of stupidity that you demonstrated that prompted me to put you on ignore...you add nothing to a conversation.....ever...you ask nothing but childish what if and why questions and wouldn't know if you were given the correct answer or not...in short, you are a boor.

 

[Wuwei]

I understand that your religious zealotry has finally gotten the better of you....I understand that even when the fellows who accidentally discovered CMB state that they were looking at RADIO waves...and discovered CMB via a radio wave...you can't accept the fact because you want it to be otherwise...

The more you talk...the more you reveal about yourself and the degree to which you have bought into the scam...and the associated pseudoscience that goes along with it...so much so, that when the discoverers of CMB state that they were looking at radio waves and noticed that one of them looked strange that you can't accept that they were looking at radio waves...in short...you are absolutely full of shit...

Of course they were looking for radio waves. I already told you they saw radio waves. Why are you getting so emotional about it? I told you about the EM spectrum and you showed me a little picture of it. We are in agreement.

What is bugging you about radio waves? I don't understand why you are so upset.

They built the system to look for radio waves bounced off Echo balloon satellites, and like many scientific discoveries accidentally found something new - signals from the CMB.

Maybe you don't understand that black body radiation at 2.7K is radio waves. Look at your little picture. It's part of the EM spectrum.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If you understood the Stefan-Boltzmann Law, you'd understand your error.

The SB law applies to black bodies and gray bodies....is a CO2 molecule either?

Do you feel that CO2 never emits radiation? Why?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

They magically detected it even though it never hits the Earth.
One of your sillier claims.

They detected it via a resonance radio frequency...do you think it is not possible to detect a thing other than directly measuring the thing itself?

How do you amplify a radio wave if the wave refuses to hit the antenna?
Spell it out.

First, who ever said that the radio wave didn't hit the antenna? They were working with a radio antenna designed to detect radio waves...they detected a radio wave that was unrecognizable to them...after much testing by various scientists, it turned out to be a resonance frequency for CMB which was then directly measured.

It is just the sort of stupidity that you demonstrated that prompted me to put you on ignore...you add nothing to a conversation.....ever...you ask nothing but childish what if and why questions and wouldn't know if you were given the correct answer or not...in short, you are a boor.

They detected it via a resonance radio frequency...do you think it is not possible to detect a thing other than directly measuring the thing itself?

Just explain how they measure a radio wave without the radio wave entering the atmosphere.

First, who ever said that the radio wave didn't hit the antenna?

Besides you? Nobody else said that.

They were working with a radio antenna designed to detect radio waves...they detected a radio wave that was unrecognizable to them...

Yeah, it was CMB. CMB that went from a colder source to the warmer surface of the telescope.

it turned out to be a resonance frequency for CMB which was then directly measured.

You'll have to explain this resonance claim.

you add nothing to a conversation.....ever...you ask nothing but childish what if and why questions

Yeah, trying to get you to provide proof for your silly claims.
And you never do.

 

[SSDD]

I understand that your religious zealotry has finally gotten the better of you....I understand that even when the fellows who accidentally discovered CMB state that they were looking at RADIO waves...and discovered CMB via a radio wave...you can't accept the fact because you want it to be otherwise...

The more you talk...the more you reveal about yourself and the degree to which you have bought into the scam...and the associated pseudoscience that goes along with it...so much so, that when the discoverers of CMB state that they were looking at radio waves and noticed that one of them looked strange that you can't accept that they were looking at radio waves...in short...you are absolutely full of shit...

Of course they were looking for radio waves. I already told you they saw radio waves. Why are you getting so emotional about it? I told you about the EM spectrum and you showed me a little picture of it. We are in agreement.

What is bugging you about radio waves? I don't understand why you are so upset.

They built the system to look for radio waves bounced off Echo balloon satellites, and like many scientific discoveries accidentally found something new - signals from the CMB.

Maybe you don't understand that black body radiation at 2.7K is radio waves. Look at your little picture. It's part of the EM spectrum.

Take your zealotry somewhere else...I have proven my point....now if you would like to demonstrate that radio waves have some temperature and that the "cool" radio waves were moving to the "warm" surface of the earth or the "warm" radio antenna which was cooled to almost absolute zero...help yourself.

 

[Wuwei]

They detected it via a resonance radio frequency...do you think it is not possible to detect a thing other than directly measuring the thing itself?

OK I see why you were so emotional. You are right, Penzias and Wilson discovered the CMB and measured one point of the BB spectum out of the broader band of BB radiation, but they did not have enough data to actually determine the temperature. Nevertheless, Todd is right, the BB radiation did hit their antenna otherwise they could not have discovered it.

 

[Wuwei]

Take your zealotry somewhere else...I have proven my point....now if you would like to demonstrate that radio waves have some temperature and that the "cool" radio waves were moving to the "warm" surface of the earth or the "warm" radio antenna which was cooled to almost absolute zero...help yourself.

As I said they measured one point in the BB spectrum. But of course the entire BB spectrum hit the antenna.

To understand this better think of trying to measure the temperature of a point on the sun. If you use a filter to measure the intensity of red light you don't have enough info to determine the temperature of the sun. You need other colors to see the full BB spectrum. Nevertheless all the colors hit the front side of the filter even if they didn't make it to the back side.

The same can be said of the radio waves.

 

[SSDD]

They detected it via a resonance radio frequency...do you think it is not possible to detect a thing other than directly measuring the thing itself?

OK I see why you were so emotional. You are right, Penzias and Wilson discovered the CMB and measured one point of the BB spectum out of the broader band of BB radiation, but they did not have enough data to actually determine the temperature. Nevertheless, Todd is right, the BB radiation did hit their antenna otherwise they could not have discovered it.

Sorry guy...the likes of you doesn't warrant emotion...I was right..you were wrong...end of story...projecting your quasi religious zealotry on me now is just another pointless exercise on your part.

And again...they discovered CMB via a resonance radio frequency...CMB is IR...not radio...but clearly you either can't...or won't grasp that fact and I have grown tired of your dogma and religiosity on the topic.

 

[SSDD]

[
As I said they measured one point in the BB spectrum. But of course the entire BB spectrum hit the antenna.

So now you believe black bodies emit radio waves? you just keep getting further out there all the time. Go talk to someone with more patience for such foolishness.

 

[Wuwei]

And again...they discovered CMB via a resonance radio frequency...CMB is IR...not radio...but clearly you either can't...or won't grasp that fact and I have grown tired of your dogma and religiosity on the topic.

Look up Wein's law. You will find that the BB radiation from something as cold as 2.7K is in the centimeter wavelengths of EM. From the little picture you posted you will see that it is named something like "radio waves".

 

[Wuwei]

So now you believe black bodies emit radio waves? you just keep getting further out there all the time. Go talk to someone with more patience for such foolishness.

It's not what I believe. It is Wein's displacement law that says that black bodies a few degrees from absolute zero have wavelengths in the centimeter range. It is those black bodies that can be detected by a radio dish sensitive to the centimeter range. Do you disbelieve Wein's displacement law?

 

[SSDD]

Of course they were looking for radio waves. I already told you they saw radio waves. Why are you getting so emotional about it? I told you about the EM spectrum and you showed me a little picture of it. We are in agreement.

What is bugging you about radio waves? I don't understand why you are so upset.

They built the system to look for radio waves bounced off Echo balloon satellites, and like many scientific discoveries accidentally found something new - signals from the CMB.

Lets try this one more time....if you can't get it this time, then I am afraid that you are doomed to live in ignorance....first, they were working with a radio telescope...and they received radio waves....nothing more

Second, the radio wave in question CORRESPONDED to CMB...it was not CMB

Third...what does CMB stand for?....cosmic MICROWAVE background....CMB is microwave....not radio...refer to the "little picture" I provided for you...they did not receive microwaves over that radio antenna...

Fourth...actual CMB has a black body spectrum of 160.23 GHz...in the microwave spectrum....the radio frequency 7.35 centimeters corresponds to a microwave frequency of 160.23 GHZ...it isn't actually the CMB signal....as I said, 7.35cm is a resonance frequency of CMB...not CMB itself.

Maybe you don't understand that black body radiation at 2.7K is radio waves. Look at your little picture. It's part of the EM spectrum.

I understand perfectly...you, however, do not...you will say anything in an attempt to be right and somewhere along the way, you seem to actually start believing your own bullshit....in fact, you have gobbled so much of your bullshit that you are now claiming that CMB stands for cosmic radio background...which it clearly does not...it stands for cosmic MICROWAVE background...Are you now going to claim that all your "experts" weren't quite bright enough to know the difference between radio and microwave and actually meant to call it cosmic radio background?

CMB is microwave radiation in the frequency of 160.23 GHz...(Alternatively, if spectral radiance is defined as dEλ/dλ, then the peak wavelength is 1.063 mm.)...in either case...CMB is not a radio wave with a frequency of 7.35cm which is what Penzias and Willson detected with that radio antenna...

Now wallow in your ignorance and bullshit if you like....drag your intellect through ten more miles of sewer on this topic if you like after all, what is a few more miles after having been dragged through the sewers for so far already...it is never going to make you right, and will do nothing more than demonstrate that you are a disciple of dogma and like the other warmer wackos on this board.....are willing to say anything...no matter how outlandish, in an effort to fool anyone into joining you on the crazy train.