Does SSDD have a point that the 2nd law of thermodynamics applies to radiative heat transfer

[Wuwei]

You understand why I wasn't sure I understood. That seems to be a patently untenable contention.

Yes, it is amazing isn't it. SSDD is simply full of patently untenable contentions.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Do I understand correctly? Is someone is saying that if an electrical outlet is colder than an electric heater, current will no go to the heater and give off heat?

SSDD claims the greenhouse effect does not exist. No photons of IR can travel from the cooler atmosphere towards the warmer surface. Because the 2nd Law says that heat does not spontaneously flow from a colder to a hotter body, he thinks that means that photons cannot flow from colder matter to hotter matter.

So before a photon is emitted, the emitter must know the temperature of all matter in the Universe so that it doesn't emit toward warmer matter.

 

[Crick]

And for all that...the second law still says that energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...never been observed...never been measured...never will because it doesn't happen...ever.

I see you actually disagree with the great Nobel prize winners in science. One might think you have a lot of hubris, but I don't think so. I think either you are a troll, or Todd is right, you can't admit it because you staked your ego on it.

As does the second law of thermodynamics....if they had it right..why does the second law disagree with them? Evidently they never managed to demonstrate, or record energy moving from a cooler object to a warmer one...let me know when it actually happens and is recorded...and the law is changed as a result.

Is that the best argument you have? That is total nonsense to think you know more than all the most eminent physicists. You really are a troll.

Anyone who has been paying attention....anyone who has even the slightest knowledge of history...anyone who has even the smallest ability to put history into context knows exactly how often the most "eminent" of any branch of science...including physics have been wrong..

that and the fact that the second law of thermodynamics has not been changed in the least by the proclamations of all these "eminent" physicists..

So, you do believe you are smarter than dozens of Nobel prize-winning physicists. For that matter, every one of them. Got it.

And where is the observation of matter controlling its emissions?

 

[Wuwei]

Yes SSDD, give us an observation or physical reason how matter can control its black body emissions.

 

[Crick]

I wanted to give him an opportunity to respond before saying that he's been asked this before and his answer is that it is one of the universe's "unknowables".

 

[jc456]

[
The references say you are wrong. Do you disbelieve all the famous physicists in these references? Max Planck? Einstein? Wilhelm Wien? Gustav Kirchhoff?

And for all that...the second law still says that energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...never been observed...never been measured...never will because it doesn't happen...ever.

And for all that...the second law still says that energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...

And for all that, none of those references violates the second law.
Why do you keep confusing radiation with heat?
Is it because you're stupid?
Or do you realize the idiocy of your original claim but just can't admit it?

Why do you keep excluding energy...If you have a problem with the word...take it up with the physics department at Georgia State...

I repeat...

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Yeah, one poorly worded source means your claim that "matter knows the temperature of all other matter in the universe at all times" must be true and all those real scientists in Wuwei's post are wrong.

Thanks for clearing that up.

DERP!

still haven't seen any observation. and then there is the whole second law thingy. Anytime, just post up that observation of thermal energy moving from cold to warm. We're all just patiently waiting.

SSDD is spot on and messes with you you can't change the facts. I've been laughing at the entire thread. He's gotcha!!!!!

 

[jc456]

I wanted to give him an opportunity to respond before saying that he's been asked this before and his answer is that it is one of the universe's "unknowables".

So you're saying everything is known? Wow, dude, that's stepping out. Guess we don't need anymore space excursions.

 

[jc456]

Do I understand correctly? Is someone is saying that if an electrical outlet is colder than an electric heater, current will no go to the heater and give off heat?

No..but you wackos come up with all sorts of crazy interpretations... Energy doesn't move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm...there is hardly anything spontaneous about the energy that moves through a wall outlet.

doesn't it have to be plugged in?

 

[jc456]

And an appeal to an authority who does not agree with the statement of the second LAW of thermodynamics is hardly giving you much credibility.

Naw. The Nobel prize winners don't agree with your out-of-context misinterpretation.

Yeah...I have heard it...you don't seem to grasp the difference between IR and resonance radio frequencies...a resonance radio frequency was what was measured...not IR...the fact that you can't separate the two is not my problem.

There was NO resonance involved in the experiment by Penzias and Wilson. They directly measured the CMB using a radiometer - a device for measuring the radiant flux (power) of electromagnetic radiation. It was an instrument warmer than the source. I repeat there were no "resonance radio frequencies", (A term you made up.) If you google that phrase you made up, you will find only 8 results, and none of them refer to IR detectors.

So your statement,

...a resonance radio frequency was what was measured....not IR...​

is totally erroneous and meaningless.

So that measurement of the CMB actually was a measurable, observable, repeatable experiment illustrating that energy from a cold object can hit a warmer object.

wow he made up a word that has 8 references. I'm impressed.

 

[jc456]

Do I understand correctly? Is someone is saying that if an electrical outlet is colder than an electric heater, current will no go to the heater and give off heat?

SSDD claims the greenhouse effect does not exist. No photons of IR can travel from the cooler atmosphere towards the warmer surface. Because the 2nd Law says that heat does not spontaneously flow from a colder to a hotter body, he thinks that means that photons cannot flow from colder matter to hotter matter.

So before a photon is emitted, the emitter must know the temperature of all matter in the Universe so that it doesn't emit toward warmer matter.

greenhouse effect doesn't exist. Sorry.

 

[Wuwei]

Anytime, just post up that observation of thermal energy moving from cold to warm. We're all just patiently waiting.

Which post says that? I bet you can't find a single one.

 

[SSDD]

There was NO resonance involved in the experiment by Penzias and Wilson.

Sorry goober...but you and your supporters are just wrong...it isn't as if it would have been that tough to actually look it up...took me a couple of seconds...

1964.[1]

Working at Bell Labs in Holmdel, New Jersey, in 1964, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson were experimenting with a supersensitive, 6 meter (20 ft) horn antenna originally built to detect radio waves bounced off Echo balloon satellites. To measure these faint radio waves, they had to eliminate all recognizable interference from their receiver. They removed the effects of radar and radio broadcasting, and suppressed interference from the heat in the receiver itself by cooling it with liquid helium to −269 °C, only 4 K above absolute zero.

 

[SSDD]

You understand why I wasn't sure I understood. That seems to be a patently untenable contention.

Yes, it is amazing isn't it. SSDD is simply full of patently untenable contentions.

Yep...nothing supporting me but the second law of thermodynamics and every observation ever made...

 

[SSDD]

And where is the observation of matter controlling its emissions?

the lack of an observation of energy spontaneously moving from cool to warm is that observation...

 

[SSDD]

Yes SSDD, give us an observation or physical reason how matter can control its black body emissions.

Tell me about the underlying mechanism of gravity?....

You seem to be under the impression that I must know and be able to describe the mechanism of energy transfer in order to say that all observations support me...how much worse could your argument be?

 

[jc456]

Anytime, just post up that observation of thermal energy moving from cold to warm. We're all just patiently waiting.

Which post says that? I bet you can't find a single one.

any post that states there is back radiation.

 

[SSDD]

Do I understand correctly? Is someone is saying that if an electrical outlet is colder than an electric heater, current will no go to the heater and give off heat?

No..but you wackos come up with all sorts of crazy interpretations... Energy doesn't move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm...there is hardly anything spontaneous about the energy that moves through a wall outlet.

doesn't it have to be plugged in?

Hilarious to watch the gyrations and gymnastics isn't it.....it is like the 3 stooges...

 

[jc456]

Do I understand correctly? Is someone is saying that if an electrical outlet is colder than an electric heater, current will no go to the heater and give off heat?

No..but you wackos come up with all sorts of crazy interpretations... Energy doesn't move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm...there is hardly anything spontaneous about the energy that moves through a wall outlet.

doesn't it have to be plugged in?

Hilarious to watch the gyrations and gymnastics isn't it.....it is like the 3 stooges...

well you could go to the who's on first skit with Abbott and Costello.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

[
The references say you are wrong. Do you disbelieve all the famous physicists in these references? Max Planck? Einstein? Wilhelm Wien? Gustav Kirchhoff?

And for all that...the second law still says that energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...never been observed...never been measured...never will because it doesn't happen...ever.

And for all that...the second law still says that energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...

And for all that, none of those references violates the second law.
Why do you keep confusing radiation with heat?
Is it because you're stupid?
Or do you realize the idiocy of your original claim but just can't admit it?

Why do you keep excluding energy...If you have a problem with the word...take it up with the physics department at Georgia State...

I repeat...

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Yeah, one poorly worded source means your claim that "matter knows the temperature of all other matter in the universe at all times" must be true and all those real scientists in Wuwei's post are wrong.

Thanks for clearing that up.

DERP!

still haven't seen any observation. and then there is the whole second law thingy. Anytime, just post up that observation of thermal energy moving from cold to warm. We're all just patiently waiting.

SSDD is spot on and messes with you you can't change the facts. I've been laughing at the entire thread. He's gotcha!!!!!

still haven't seen any observation.

You haven't observed photons moving from cooler to warmer matter? Are you sure?

and then there is the whole second law thingy.

Exactly! The second law says nothing about photons being prohibited from moving from cooler to warmer matter.

Anytime, just post up that observation of thermal energy moving from cold to warm.

Don't forget about photons moving between matter of the same temperature.
Or do you feel that violates the 2nd Law as well?

I've been laughing at the entire thread.

Well of course you've been.

He's gotcha!!!!!

Yup. He has me, Einstein, Kirchoff and Planck. Among others.
Feel free to refute any of the info referenced in Wuwei's post #15......

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16305830/

If you ever stop laughing.

 

[Wuwei]

You understand why I wasn't sure I understood. That seems to be a patently untenable contention.

Yes, it is amazing isn't it. SSDD is simply full of patently untenable contentions.

Yep...nothing supporting me but the second law of thermodynamics and every observation ever made...

Absolutely wrong. No law nor scientist supports you.