Does the Constitution prevent the President from being indicted for a criminal act?

[ZZ PUPPS]

Thats not what that says.

Wrong.

Right!

"
but the party convicted (of impeachment) shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law."

That means the party unconvicted is NOT. They made sure this thing was in plain English so people would understand it. I hope this clears that up for you.

Article 1, Section 3

Article I

It's in plain English, but it still doesn't say what you want it to say. For the third or fourth time. I hope THIS time, that clears it up for you.

It's saying that just because the Senate can't do any more than remove him from office and disqualify him from future, that doesn't mean that he can't still be prosecuted criminally for whatever it was that got him impeached, if it's criminal.

At no point does it indicate that impeachment/removal is required for criminal prosecution.

Kinda like the Second Amendment lists "well-regulated militia" as a reason for protecting the right of people to own guns, but at no point does it say that only the militia can own them.

Mentioning one specific case scenario does NOT automatically rule out all other scenarios.

You should read more of it than what I linked. Congress people aren't allowed to be arrested until out of office either. If that's the policy for Congress, it damn sure is the policy for their superiors.

Congress is protected from arrest only during transit to and from and while performing legislative duties.

Just as the President is protected while performing his duties. Same principle.

And that will be the crucial point in a court case. The presidency is a 24 /7 responsibility and thus has no session per se. Consequently, such protection extends throughout the term of office.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A. The Constitution does NOT say a President can't be indicted. It just doesn't.

It describes how to remove a President who has NOT been indicted. That's all.

It's a Dept of Justice POLICY only...that says a President can not be indicted.

B. If a President can not be indicted he is above the law.

Should a blatantly corrupt President be impeached by the House and then BRIBE 34 Senators...he could not be indicted even for THAT.

And he could then PARDON those very Senators and possibly even himself

Is that where you folks are going?

A President above the law completely?

We should try not to elect criminal presidents, or traitor ones. I have pretty good faith that most Americans haven't, and wouldn't. If Congress can't get arrested, the president damn sure can't either.

I bet you missed the part where Congress can't get arrested. These people have a lot of power.

Congressmembers can't get arrested while they're in session. Out of session, they can be arrested just like anyone else (theoretically).

The President is a bit different from them, in that he doesn't HAVE a session.

His term is his session. Same principle.

No, it's not. Congressmembers have terms, just like he does. They also have periods of time when they're on duty, and periods when they aren't. The President doesn't have that; he's technically on duty 24/7 for four years. And I have trouble imagining our Founding Fathers being down with the idea of letting someone against whom there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt get off scot-free for four years because a handful of politicians put party above honor.

 

[Lesh]

No, it's not. Congressmembers have terms, just like he does. They also have periods of time when they're on duty, and periods when they aren't. The President doesn't have that; he's technically on duty 24/7 for four years. And I have trouble imagining our Founding Fathers being down with the idea of letting someone against whom there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt get off scot-free for four years because a handful of politicians put party above honor.

Holy Crap!

You GO girl.

The Trumpers are going to come after you now ya know.

Sanity is not allowed

 

[Cecilie1200]

My response is, no man is above the law. And no where in the Constitution is there any clause excusing criminal conduct being investigated and indictable.

A ham sandwich can be indicted by a competent District Attorney. The issue is can the indictment be served and the President be forced to appear before a court.

I would say the President would have to be impeached and removed from office before he could be forced to appear before an inferior court, for the simple fact that any other method would allow abuse by State governments to indict federal officials for decisions they did not like.

So If Colorado and California have a water dispute and Colorado wins California can't go and indict the Secretary of the Interior to try to force the issue.

Well, actually, I definitely don't see any legal protection for the Secretary of the Interior.

And you can SAY that should be the case, because you think it's the best plan, but what you can't do is show where the law specifies that.

 

[martybegan]

My response is, no man is above the law. And no where in the Constitution is there any clause excusing criminal conduct being investigated and indictable.

A ham sandwich can be indicted by a competent District Attorney. The issue is can the indictment be served and the President be forced to appear before a court.

I would say the President would have to be impeached and removed from office before he could be forced to appear before an inferior court, for the simple fact that any other method would allow abuse by State governments to indict federal officials for decisions they did not like.

So If Colorado and California have a water dispute and Colorado wins California can't go and indict the Secretary of the Interior to try to force the issue.

Well, actually, I definitely don't see any legal protection for the Secretary of the Interior.

And you can SAY that should be the case, because you think it's the best plan, but what you can't do is show where the law specifies that.

The Constitution lays out the rules for impeachment for the President, Vice President and all Civil officials. What this actually means has never been really sorted out by the courts. To me it means any official appointed by the President and approved by the Senate.

So civil service people can be just indicted, but to gun for someone part of the cabinet you need to go through congress.

 

[hunarcy]

A. The Constitution does NOT say a President can't be indicted. It just doesn't.

It describes how to remove a President who has NOT been indicted. That's all.

It's a Dept of Justice POLICY only...that says a President can not be indicted.

B. If a President can not be indicted he is above the law.

Should a blatantly corrupt President be impeached by the House and then BRIBE 34 Senators...he could not be indicted even for THAT.

And he could then PARDON those very Senators and possibly even himself

Is that where you folks are going?

A President above the law completely?

We should try not to elect criminal presidents, or traitor ones. I have pretty good faith that most Americans haven't, and wouldn't. If Congress can't get arrested, the president damn sure can't either.

I bet you missed the part where Congress can't get arrested. These people have a lot of power.

Congressmembers can't get arrested while they're in session. Out of session, they can be arrested just like anyone else (theoretically).

The President is a bit different from them, in that he doesn't HAVE a session.

His term is his session. Same principle.

No, it's not. Congressmembers have terms, just like he does. They also have periods of time when they're on duty, and periods when they aren't. The President doesn't have that; he's technically on duty 24/7 for four years. And I have trouble imagining our Founding Fathers being down with the idea of letting someone against whom there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt get off scot-free for four years because a handful of politicians put party above honor.

They were not. That's what impeachment is supposed to be for...not removal because we don't like someone.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Or, is the President of the United States above the law?

What say you?

Here's an Op-Ed:

Yes, the Constitution Allows Indictment of the President

And other written opinions:

Can a president be indicted while in office?

https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2573&context=facpub

Another Problem with the Constitutional Argument Against the Indictment of a President

Clintonistas with high hopes but no facts. A President cannot be indicted while in office. That's why a President can be impeached...to be removed from office, and then indicted.

A president can be impeached, since he is no different than you or I, we are all citizens of the United States and no one of us is above the law.

The matter my go before the Supreme Court, but I suspect the vote in Trump v. The United States of America will be 9 - 0 for the United States of America.

Yes, that's what I said. A president can be impeached. THEN, if he's removed, he can be indicted. If not, that'd have to wait until he is out of office.

Wrong. He can be indicted, and that's when the fun begins. Will the Supreme Court support the claim that he is above the law, or vote 9-0 that he can be charged and prosecuted by a jury.

Or the Court might rule remove from office via the impeachment process first then prosecute.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A president can be impeached, since he is no different than you or I, we are all citizens of the United States and no one of us is above the law.

The matter my go before the Supreme Court, but I suspect the vote in Trump v. The United States of America will be 9 - 0 for the United States of America.

Yes, that's what I said. A president can be impeached. THEN, if he's removed, he can be indicted. If not, that'd have to wait until he is out of office.

Wrong. He can be indicted, and that's when the fun begins. Will the Supreme Court support the claim that he is above the law, or vote 9-0 that he can be charged and prosecuted by a jury.

Sorry, but I'm not going to waste time arguing with you since you obviously failed your high school civics class. A President MUST be impeached prior to indictment.

Indicting and Prosecuting a Sitting President

I like how you assume "I found a blog that agrees with me, therefore it's basic civics taught in high school."

Except it's not, because it's not even remotely close to being a settled, written-in-black-and-white fact. For every lawyer you can find who insists it's clear to HIM that it's this way, I can find you an equally-qualified lawyer who says it's not that clear-cut and would require either legislation or a Court ruling to clarify it.

If you can find me someplace in an actual law or precedent that says the words "MUST be impeached prior", I'd love to see it.

You misunderstand. In high school civics, the lesson about impeachement/removal/indictment/trial is taught. I found an article from a noted scholar that supports that lesson. I'm sure you can find a partisan attorney to make your case, but even as late as the 1970's, in Spiro Agnew's case, it was accepted fact that members of the Executive could not be indicted until after removal from office. You should investigate that, and you'd find your precedent.

No, I don't misunderstand, you just vastly overstate, and make wild assumptions about "My opinion is fact, therefore only 'partisans' could disagree." And don't even get me started on, "Saying this name proves it. I'm not going to provide any evidence, YOU go research and prove my assertion."

Frankly, I can see why you'd rather just assert that you're right, rather than try to prove it, since you are, in fact, completely wrong about Spiro Agnew, and presenting facts would require you to admit that.

Spiro Agnew | Biography, Scandal, & Resignation

Spiro Agnew asserted that a sitting Vice President could not be indicted, he got the Solicitor General to issue a brief asserting that, but then he took a plea bargain and resigned from office the same day that he appeared in court and pled no contest to the charges. In other words, not exactly proof of your claim, especially since - if I'm understanding the story correctly - he asserted that he couldn't be indicted in reponse to being indicted.

So we're right back where we started: lots of people asserting that their personal understanding of the issue constitutes "the way it is", and it never actually having been established one way or the other.

 

[Lesh]

The fact that Agnew was indeed indicted however...

 

[hunarcy]

Yes, that's what I said. A president can be impeached. THEN, if he's removed, he can be indicted. If not, that'd have to wait until he is out of office.

Wrong. He can be indicted, and that's when the fun begins. Will the Supreme Court support the claim that he is above the law, or vote 9-0 that he can be charged and prosecuted by a jury.

Sorry, but I'm not going to waste time arguing with you since you obviously failed your high school civics class. A President MUST be impeached prior to indictment.

Indicting and Prosecuting a Sitting President

I like how you assume "I found a blog that agrees with me, therefore it's basic civics taught in high school."

Except it's not, because it's not even remotely close to being a settled, written-in-black-and-white fact. For every lawyer you can find who insists it's clear to HIM that it's this way, I can find you an equally-qualified lawyer who says it's not that clear-cut and would require either legislation or a Court ruling to clarify it.

If you can find me someplace in an actual law or precedent that says the words "MUST be impeached prior", I'd love to see it.

You misunderstand. In high school civics, the lesson about impeachment/removal/indictment/trial is taught. I found an article from a noted scholar that supports that lesson. I'm sure you can find a partisan attorney to make your case, but even as late as the 1970's, in Spiro Agnew's case, it was accepted fact that members of the Executive could not be indicted until after removal from office. You should investigate that, and you'd find your precedent.

No, I don't misunderstand, you just vastly overstate, and make wild assumptions about "My opinion is fact, therefore only 'partisans' could disagree." And don't even get me started on, "Saying this name proves it. I'm not going to provide any evidence, YOU go research and prove my assertion."

Frankly, I can see why you'd rather just assert that you're right, rather than try to prove it, since you are, in fact, completely wrong about Spiro Agnew, and presenting facts would require you to admit that.

Spiro Agnew | Biography, Scandal, & Resignation

Spiro Agnew asserted that a sitting Vice President could not be indicted, he got the Solicitor General to issue a brief asserting that, but then he took a plea bargain and resigned from office the same day that he appeared in court and pled no contest to the charges. In other words, not exactly proof of your claim, especially since - if I'm understanding the story correctly - he asserted that he couldn't be indicted in reponse to being indicted.

So we're right back where we started: lots of people asserting that their personal understanding of the issue constitutes "the way it is", and it never actually having been established one way or the other.

If you intend to be a horse's ass, then my interest in a discussion wanes. I do NOT vastly overstate, I state it as a fact that it is taught in high school civics that the president must be impeached before indictment. I do not make any assumptions about "My opinion is fact, therefore only 'partisans' could disagree.", in truth, it's not my opinion. It is the prevailing view of reputable scholars and the United States Justice Department.

Agnew was NEVER indicted. He was trying to squash the investigation, but then he negotiated a plea deal and resigned. I'm sure you want to substitute your opinion for that of the Justice Department and reputable scholars throughout the history of the nation, but that's not persuasive. And, since you are obviously becoming obnoxious that your opinion is not being embraced, I'll bid you good afternoon and leave you to your snottiness.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Thats not what that says.

Wrong.

Right!

"
but the party convicted (of impeachment) shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law."

That means the party unconvicted is NOT. They made sure this thing was in plain English so people would understand it. I hope this clears that up for you.

Article 1, Section 3

Article I

It's in plain English, but it still doesn't say what you want it to say. For the third or fourth time. I hope THIS time, that clears it up for you.

It's saying that just because the Senate can't do any more than remove him from office and disqualify him from future, that doesn't mean that he can't still be prosecuted criminally for whatever it was that got him impeached, if it's criminal.

At no point does it indicate that impeachment/removal is required for criminal prosecution.

Kinda like the Second Amendment lists "well-regulated militia" as a reason for protecting the right of people to own guns, but at no point does it say that only the militia can own them.

Mentioning one specific case scenario does NOT automatically rule out all other scenarios.

You should read more of it than what I linked. Congress people aren't allowed to be arrested until out of office either. If that's the policy for Congress, it damn sure is the policy for their superiors.

Congress is protected from arrest only during transit to and from and while performing legislative duties.

Just as the President is protected while performing his duties. Same principle.

Except that Congress's immunity - which very carefully only covers relatively small portions of time, rather than their entire term of office - is explicitly spelled out. Still waiting on anyone to show me where the Constitution says, "The President shall be immune from arrest and prosecution" in those same explicit terms.

It's amazing how what the law is depends so much on WHAT THE LAW ACTUALLY SAYS.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Right!

"
but the party convicted (of impeachment) shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law."

That means the party unconvicted is NOT. They made sure this thing was in plain English so people would understand it. I hope this clears that up for you.

Article 1, Section 3

Article I

It's in plain English, but it still doesn't say what you want it to say. For the third or fourth time. I hope THIS time, that clears it up for you.

It's saying that just because the Senate can't do any more than remove him from office and disqualify him from future, that doesn't mean that he can't still be prosecuted criminally for whatever it was that got him impeached, if it's criminal.

At no point does it indicate that impeachment/removal is required for criminal prosecution.

Kinda like the Second Amendment lists "well-regulated militia" as a reason for protecting the right of people to own guns, but at no point does it say that only the militia can own them.

Mentioning one specific case scenario does NOT automatically rule out all other scenarios.

You should read more of it than what I linked. Congress people aren't allowed to be arrested until out of office either. If that's the policy for Congress, it damn sure is the policy for their superiors.

Congress is protected from arrest only during transit to and from and while performing legislative duties.

Just as the President is protected while performing his duties. Same principle.

And that will be the crucial point in a court case. The presidency is a 24 /7 responsibility and thus has no session per se. Consequently, such protection extends throughout the term of office.

Or, consequently, no such protection can be reasonably extended.

Pretty sure wording of the Constitution and whatever previous precedent can be found is more crucial than how you think it should be, particularly when how you think it should be would, potentially, carry the risk of having a provable criminal go unprosecuted for four years at the whims of a handful of partisan politicians.

 

[Lesh]

I state it as a fact that it is taught in high school civics that the president must be impeached before indictment.

Then point to this curricula because I never heard that in school.

 

[Cecilie1200]

My response is, no man is above the law. And no where in the Constitution is there any clause excusing criminal conduct being investigated and indictable.

A ham sandwich can be indicted by a competent District Attorney. The issue is can the indictment be served and the President be forced to appear before a court.

I would say the President would have to be impeached and removed from office before he could be forced to appear before an inferior court, for the simple fact that any other method would allow abuse by State governments to indict federal officials for decisions they did not like.

So If Colorado and California have a water dispute and Colorado wins California can't go and indict the Secretary of the Interior to try to force the issue.

Well, actually, I definitely don't see any legal protection for the Secretary of the Interior.

And you can SAY that should be the case, because you think it's the best plan, but what you can't do is show where the law specifies that.

The Constitution lays out the rules for impeachment for the President, Vice President and all Civil officials. What this actually means has never been really sorted out by the courts. To me it means any official appointed by the President and approved by the Senate.

So civil service people can be just indicted, but to gun for someone part of the cabinet you need to go through congress.

Note the phrase "to me". Denotes a personal opinion, based on nothing but personal viewpoint, and irrelevant to the actual laws.

What impeachment means is actually pretty clear to the courts and everyone else. It means, "Enough people don't want you in office anymore." And it has exactly squat to do with criminal indictment and prosecution, because it has never been tested.

Just because someone has to be impeached to be removed from office doesn't automatically mean that that person has to be removed from office before they can be prosecuted.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A. The Constitution does NOT say a President can't be indicted. It just doesn't.

It describes how to remove a President who has NOT been indicted. That's all.

It's a Dept of Justice POLICY only...that says a President can not be indicted.

B. If a President can not be indicted he is above the law.

Should a blatantly corrupt President be impeached by the House and then BRIBE 34 Senators...he could not be indicted even for THAT.

And he could then PARDON those very Senators and possibly even himself

Is that where you folks are going?

A President above the law completely?

We should try not to elect criminal presidents, or traitor ones. I have pretty good faith that most Americans haven't, and wouldn't. If Congress can't get arrested, the president damn sure can't either.

I bet you missed the part where Congress can't get arrested. These people have a lot of power.

Congressmembers can't get arrested while they're in session. Out of session, they can be arrested just like anyone else (theoretically).

The President is a bit different from them, in that he doesn't HAVE a session.

His term is his session. Same principle.

No, it's not. Congressmembers have terms, just like he does. They also have periods of time when they're on duty, and periods when they aren't. The President doesn't have that; he's technically on duty 24/7 for four years. And I have trouble imagining our Founding Fathers being down with the idea of letting someone against whom there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt get off scot-free for four years because a handful of politicians put party above honor.

They were not. That's what impeachment is supposed to be for...not removal because we don't like someone.

No, if impeachment were for the purpose of criminal prosecution, the Constitution wouldn't specifically prohibit Congress from doing so.

Impeachment actually IS for removal because we - a significant majority of the representatives of we, anyway - don't like that person enough to want them gone. Noticeably, the Constitution NEVER says that a person can only be impeached for criminal activity, and historical precedent shows officeholders being impeached for reasons which are not criminally prosecutable.

 

[Lesh]

Agnew was NEVER indicted

He was charged..and plead "nolo contendere". How does that happen without an indictment....

 

[JWBooth]

Or, is the President of the United States above the law?

What say you?

Here's an Op-Ed:

Yes, the Constitution Allows Indictment of the President

And other written opinions:

Can a president be indicted while in office?

https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2573&context=facpub

Another Problem with the Constitutional Argument Against the Indictment of a President

I read nothing there that supports a claim that a sitting POTUS cannot be indicted while holding office. However, there is an immense amount of constitutional case law relying on all kinds of silly shit that isn’t there, so......

 

[Marion Morrison]

Thats not what that says.

Wrong.

Right!

"
but the party convicted (of impeachment) shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law."

That means the party unconvicted is NOT. They made sure this thing was in plain English so people would understand it. I hope this clears that up for you.

Article 1, Section 3

Article I

It's in plain English, but it still doesn't say what you want it to say. For the third or fourth time. I hope THIS time, that clears it up for you.

It's saying that just because the Senate can't do any more than remove him from office and disqualify him from future, that doesn't mean that he can't still be prosecuted criminally for whatever it was that got him impeached, if it's criminal.

At no point does it indicate that impeachment/removal is required for criminal prosecution.

Kinda like the Second Amendment lists "well-regulated militia" as a reason for protecting the right of people to own guns, but at no point does it say that only the militia can own them.

Mentioning one specific case scenario does NOT automatically rule out all other scenarios.

You should read more of it than what I linked. Congress people aren't allowed to be arrested until out of office either. If that's the policy for Congress, it damn sure is the policy for their superiors.

Congress is protected from arrest only during transit to and from and while performing legislative duties.

Just as the President is protected while performing his duties. Same principle.

Right!

"
but the party convicted (of impeachment) shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law."

That means the party unconvicted is NOT. They made sure this thing was in plain English so people would understand it. I hope this clears that up for you.

Article 1, Section 3

Article I

It's in plain English, but it still doesn't say what you want it to say. For the third or fourth time. I hope THIS time, that clears it up for you.

It's saying that just because the Senate can't do any more than remove him from office and disqualify him from future, that doesn't mean that he can't still be prosecuted criminally for whatever it was that got him impeached, if it's criminal.

At no point does it indicate that impeachment/removal is required for criminal prosecution.

Kinda like the Second Amendment lists "well-regulated militia" as a reason for protecting the right of people to own guns, but at no point does it say that only the militia can own them.

Mentioning one specific case scenario does NOT automatically rule out all other scenarios.

You should read more of it than what I linked. Congress people aren't allowed to be arrested until out of office either. If that's the policy for Congress, it damn sure is the policy for their superiors.

Congress is protected from arrest only during transit to and from and while performing legislative duties.

Just as the President is protected while performing his duties. Same principle.

And that will be the crucial point in a court case. The presidency is a 24 /7 responsibility and thus has no session per se. Consequently, such protection extends throughout the term of office.

Right!

"
but the party convicted (of impeachment) shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law."

That means the party unconvicted is NOT. They made sure this thing was in plain English so people would understand it. I hope this clears that up for you.

Article 1, Section 3

Article I

It's in plain English, but it still doesn't say what you want it to say. For the third or fourth time. I hope THIS time, that clears it up for you.

It's saying that just because the Senate can't do any more than remove him from office and disqualify him from future, that doesn't mean that he can't still be prosecuted criminally for whatever it was that got him impeached, if it's criminal.

At no point does it indicate that impeachment/removal is required for criminal prosecution.

Kinda like the Second Amendment lists "well-regulated militia" as a reason for protecting the right of people to own guns, but at no point does it say that only the militia can own them.

Mentioning one specific case scenario does NOT automatically rule out all other scenarios.

You should read more of it than what I linked. Congress people aren't allowed to be arrested until out of office either. If that's the policy for Congress, it damn sure is the policy for their superiors.

Congress is protected from arrest only during transit to and from and while performing legislative duties.

Just as the President is protected while performing his duties. Same principle.

Except that Congress's immunity - which very carefully only covers relatively small portions of time, rather than their entire term of office - is explicitly spelled out. Still waiting on anyone to show me where the Constitution says, "The President shall be immune from arrest and prosecution" in those same explicit terms.

It's amazing how what the law is depends so much on WHAT THE LAW ACTUALLY SAYS.

At this point you're arguing for argument's sake.

Bottom line: If you want to drag the elected President of the US in front of a Grand Jury Panel he/she either has to be successfully impeached or be done with serving the term of office.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Or, is the President of the United States above the law?

What say you?

Here's an Op-Ed:

Yes, the Constitution Allows Indictment of the President

And other written opinions:

Can a president be indicted while in office?

https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2573&context=facpub

Another Problem with the Constitutional Argument Against the Indictment of a President

Clintonistas with high hopes but no facts. A President cannot be indicted while in office. That's why a President can be impeached...to be removed from office, and then indicted.

A president can be impeached, since he is no different than you or I, we are all citizens of the United States and no one of us is above the law.

The matter my go before the Supreme Court, but I suspect the vote in Trump v. The United States of America will be 9 - 0 for the United States of America.

Yes, that's what I said. A president can be impeached. THEN, if he's removed, he can be indicted. If not, that'd have to wait until he is out of office.

Wrong. He can be indicted, and that's when the fun begins. Will the Supreme Court support the claim that he is above the law, or vote 9-0 that he can be charged and prosecuted by a jury.

Or the Court might rule remove from office via the impeachment process first then prosecute.

It might. Kinda the point is that they ARE going to have to rule something, because it's far from a settled question.

 

[martybegan]

My response is, no man is above the law. And no where in the Constitution is there any clause excusing criminal conduct being investigated and indictable.

A ham sandwich can be indicted by a competent District Attorney. The issue is can the indictment be served and the President be forced to appear before a court.

I would say the President would have to be impeached and removed from office before he could be forced to appear before an inferior court, for the simple fact that any other method would allow abuse by State governments to indict federal officials for decisions they did not like.

So If Colorado and California have a water dispute and Colorado wins California can't go and indict the Secretary of the Interior to try to force the issue.

Well, actually, I definitely don't see any legal protection for the Secretary of the Interior.

And you can SAY that should be the case, because you think it's the best plan, but what you can't do is show where the law specifies that.

The Constitution lays out the rules for impeachment for the President, Vice President and all Civil officials. What this actually means has never been really sorted out by the courts. To me it means any official appointed by the President and approved by the Senate.

So civil service people can be just indicted, but to gun for someone part of the cabinet you need to go through congress.

Note the phrase "to me". Denotes a personal opinion, based on nothing but personal viewpoint, and irrelevant to the actual laws.

What impeachment means is actually pretty clear to the courts and everyone else. It means, "Enough people don't want you in office anymore." And it has exactly squat to do with criminal indictment and prosecution, because it has never been tested.

Just because someone has to be impeached to be removed from office doesn't automatically mean that that person has to be removed from office before they can be prosecuted.

The issue is having an indicted president, vice president or senior cabinet member fighting an indictment while trying to perform their duties of office. Allowing this would create a political free for all.

I said "to me" because I know the courts haven't fleshed this out yet, but when they do I would think they would fall in line with my views on it, to prevent absolute chaos in our federal government.