Dr Collins, top geneticist, and CHRISTIAN....

[Iridescence]

Get OUT of using wiki!

 

[cbirch2]

Again you keep trying to base your belief off of speculation there is absolutely no evidence of what you say happened,happened.

You need to learn fact from speculation.

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

The biggest problem for your theory oops, i mean Dr. Millers theory is this. It get's in the way of the real problem. It's not just the difference in the number of Chromosomes in both chimp and human. It's the information contained in the Chromosomes. The ape went through anatomical restructuring to develop .The ape had to learn to speak,stand upright,sing,expience emotions,by random processes in other words by chance. To which of this has been observed.

Despitel similarities between human and ape chromosomes, there are important differences on the molecular level. many protein coding genes in humans that are just human and are not found in chimps. The differences in genes that don't code for proteins. Genes have been described which code for micro rna. The miro rna molecule is not translated, but acts directly to control gene expression. One micro rna can regulate the expression of dozens or even hundreds of genes. A study done on micro rnas expressed in the brain found fifty one of four hundred fortyseven micro rnas were distinctly human and only 25 in the chimp.

The thought of many genes were altered so that they are expressed in the proper concentration cell type and can effectively control the many different genes they regulate is not what we would expect of a chance process. It makes more sense to believe God created the chimp distinct from a human. How is that for logic ?

Again, im abandoning trying to prove that humans descended from apes (which is fact), and instead proving to you the general idea that humans descended from some other species, im not particularly saying which one.

The definition of a species is a group of animals capable of interbreeding. Therefore organisms constitute different species based on whether or not they can produce viable and fertile offspring. The point is that an organism with 48 chromosomes cannot mate with an organism that has 46 chromosomes. One gamete would donate an extra chromosome, and the offspring would have an unpaired chromosome, making it deformed and sterile if fertilization could even occur at all. Therefore any two organisms that have a separate number of chromosomes must constitute a different species.

So if your going to agree that chromosome 2 is the result of fusion, which is undeniable, then your also agreeing that our ancestors had 48 chromosomes and that they are a different species. So humans must have speciated.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Are you going to ignore chromosome two, or even work to understand what the fuck im talking about? I dont particularly care about Dr. Spetners argument. Its not based on any biology or understand of genetics. Hes never even been associated with biology, none of his degrees have anything to do with it. He just made a series of statistical predictions that are an educated guess at best. I am no where near impressed. Spetner himself believes in evolution, he just argues that it is non random.

Now how do you explain how chromosome two became fused without speciation? A fused chromosome is a definition of speciation. If we are a viable offspring of an organism that once had 48 chromosomes, then we are by definition an separate species.

The fusion of chromosome two is an undeniable fact. How can you argue that?

I have never denied i am pretty sure of that chromosomes can fuse.

Thanks for admitting speciation.

If your admitting that primitive humans have an extra chromosome pair than you are admitting that modern humans are the result of a speciation event sometime in the past (the fusion of two chromosomes into Human Chromosome 2).

I responded to this with my reasons ok. Now answer my questions.

 

[cbirch2]

Get OUT of using wiki!

I havent linked to wiki all of today or yesterday.

 

[cbirch2]

What fruit fly experiment are you talking about. Theres probably about a hundred.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Get OUT of using wiki!

I havent linked to wiki all of today or yesterday.

If someone has a problem with Wiki anyways, all they have to do is click on the references at the bottom of the Wiki page, if they don't like the source of the info THEN is when they should state whether or not they take issue with what Wiki says on the subject.

 

[cbirch2]

Get OUT of using wiki!

I havent linked to wiki all of today or yesterday.

If someone has a problem with Wiki anyways, all they have to do is click on the references at the bottom of the Wiki page, if they don't like the source of the info THEN is when they should state whether or not they take issue with what Wiki says on the subject.

Lol not to mention half of the wiki pages are locked and if you try to edit with false information its removed literally within 5 minutes.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Dr Lee Spetner specifically says: "(1) the mutation rate in this model is much higher than what is seen in non-immunoglobulin genes and in non-B-cells; and (2) these “hypermutations” are mediated by “special enzymes.” With regard to your first point, I agree that the mutation rate is higher in the B cell example than in evolution, but I fail to see why that fact weakens the usefulness of the example as a model for evolution."

Taken out of context that quote sounds more like evidence for evolution. YWC's entire argument is that mutations dont happen fast enough or even at all it seems like. In that quote Spetner is admitting exactly the opposite.

I think he was saying what i was saying that if they mutated at that rate it would destroy the organism but i will look at it.

I usually don't like taking so little information without knowing where it came from.

 

[Iridescence]

Dr Lee Spetner specifically says: "(1) the mutation rate in this model is much higher than what is seen in non-immunoglobulin genes and in non-B-cells; and (2) these “hypermutations” are mediated by “special enzymes.” With regard to your first point, I agree that the mutation rate is higher in the B cell example than in evolution, but I fail to see why that fact weakens the usefulness of the example as a model for evolution."

Mutation rate,that is not what i am saying. I am saying Spetner believed mutations resulted in the loss of information.

It obviously resulted in some loss of information if it were a backward mutation.

 

[cbirch2]

And YWC you definitely didnt answer my question. You acknowledged that chromosome 2 is a result of fusion but still seem to think speciation isnt provable; an impossible conclusion.

 

[Iridescence]

Dr Lee Spetner specifically says: "(1) the mutation rate in this model is much higher than what is seen in non-immunoglobulin genes and in non-B-cells; and (2) these “hypermutations” are mediated by “special enzymes.” With regard to your first point, I agree that the mutation rate is higher in the B cell example than in evolution, but I fail to see why that fact weakens the usefulness of the example as a model for evolution."

Taken out of context that quote sounds more like evidence for evolution. YWC's entire argument is that mutations dont happen fast enough or even at all it seems like. In that quote Spetner is admitting exactly the opposite.

I think he was saying what i was saying that if they mutated at that rate it would destroy the organism but i will look at it.

I usually don't like taking so little information without knowing where it came from.

The link is included...

 

[cbirch2]

Dr Lee Spetner specifically says: "(1) the mutation rate in this model is much higher than what is seen in non-immunoglobulin genes and in non-B-cells; and (2) these “hypermutations” are mediated by “special enzymes.” With regard to your first point, I agree that the mutation rate is higher in the B cell example than in evolution, but I fail to see why that fact weakens the usefulness of the example as a model for evolution."

Mutation rate,that is not what i am saying. I am saying Spetner believed mutations resulted in the loss of information.

It obviously resulted in some loss of information if it were a backward mutation.

"Backward mutations"

Lol. Please explain to me by which mechanism mutations face different directions

These two people clearly dont understand what i mean by insertion, substitution, and deletion. Either of these things is just as likely a source of mutation as the others. Therefore your premise that information cannot be added is wrong at a fundamental level.

Dr Spetner admitted that information can indeed be added, you have the quote. He doesnt think it can be added fast enough to go from bacteria to human, but hes not stupid enough to think that information cant be added at all.

Thats a truly stupid thought. Only someone that doesnt understand how mutations work at the genetic level would claim such a ridiculous thing.

 

[Iridescence]

Get OUT of using wiki!

I havent linked to wiki all of today or yesterday.

If someone has a problem with Wiki anyways, all they have to do is click on the references at the bottom of the Wiki page, if they don't like the source of the info THEN is when they should state whether or not they take issue with what Wiki says on the subject.

Wiki is not a reputable source for research. I don't understand those who have ample time to click and manuever through the net as I don't usually... I prefer things with edu and such but because I have learned through other sites they are less controversial and also not as 'traditionally limited' in social graces.

 

[Youwerecreated]

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

Ah yes,Dr. Spetner agrees with me that mutations result in a loss of information.

No he argued that the addition of genetic information wouldnt have occurred fast enough to evolve from bacteria to human. He doesnt argue against any and all addition of information to a genome like you do. Heres an except of an exchange between spetner and a biologist:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Spetner:[/FONT] Max’s pièce de résistance was the somatic mutations in B lymphocytes (B cells) of the vertebrate immune system as examples of random mutations that add information. He implied that Evolution could follow this method to achieve baboons from bacteria. I agree with him that these mutations add information to the B-cell genome. I also agree that they are random, but they are random only in the base changes they make; they are not random in where in the genome they can occur. More important, I do not agree that the grand sweep of evolution could be achieved through such mutations.


Only an idiot would argue that mutation cant ever result in the addition of new information.

He said that the result of mutations end with a loss of information how is that contradicting me ?

Look the mutation rate i posted yesterday were done with evolutionist numbers if you have a problem, it's with them.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Well done Birch, it only took 29 pages but finally an admittance that speciation happens.

Wrong.

 

[Dr.Drock]

I havent linked to wiki all of today or yesterday.

If someone has a problem with Wiki anyways, all they have to do is click on the references at the bottom of the Wiki page, if they don't like the source of the info THEN is when they should state whether or not they take issue with what Wiki says on the subject.

Wiki is not a reputable source for research. I don't understand those who have ample time to click and manuever through the net as I don't usually... I prefer things with edu and such but because I have learned through other sites they are less controversial and also not as 'traditionally limited' in social graces.

Which is why Wiki references their info, and more often then not their references are "with edu and such."

All you have to do is read the wiki information, they source it, you click the source, voila it's right there.

 

[Youwerecreated]

No he argued that the addition of genetic information wouldnt have occurred fast enough to evolve from bacteria to human. He doesnt argue against any and all addition of information to a genome like you do. Heres an except of an exchange between spetner and a biologist:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Spetner:[/FONT] Max’s pièce de résistance was the somatic mutations in B lymphocytes (B cells) of the vertebrate immune system as examples of random mutations that add information. He implied that Evolution could follow this method to achieve baboons from bacteria. I agree with him that these mutations add information to the B-cell genome. I also agree that they are random, but they are random only in the base changes they make; they are not random in where in the genome they can occur. More important, I do not agree that the grand sweep of evolution could be achieved through such mutations.


Only an idiot would argue that mutation cant ever result in the addition of new information.

Quoted from wiki.

Spetner is a critic of the role of mutations in the modern evolutionary synthesis. Spetner claims mutations lead to a loss of genetic information.

Lee Spetner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And i just showed you spetner admitting hes wrong.

Ok another reason we should take wiki with a grain of salt my mistake.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Dr Lee Spetner specifically says: "(1) the mutation rate in this model is much higher than what is seen in non-immunoglobulin genes and in non-B-cells; and (2) these “hypermutations” are mediated by “special enzymes.” With regard to your first point, I agree that the mutation rate is higher in the B cell example than in evolution, but I fail to see why that fact weakens the usefulness of the example as a model for evolution."

Mutation rate,that is not what i am saying. I am saying Spetner believed mutations resulted in the loss of information.

It obviously resulted in some loss of information if it were a backward mutation.

Good point.

 

[Youwerecreated]

And YWC you definitely didnt answer my question. You acknowledged that chromosome 2 is a result of fusion but still seem to think speciation isnt provable; an impossible conclusion.

I gave you my problems with that conclusion.

 

[Youwerecreated]

What fruit fly experiment are you talking about. Theres probably about a hundred.

Come on you really can't answer those questions, i deliberately asked you those questions to see what level of genetics you're educated in.