Dr Collins, top geneticist, and CHRISTIAN....

[Youwerecreated]

I am not denying anything other than your assertion that 'we' came from chimps. I am not saying that reversing genetics is impossible what I AM saying is that there is a mark that comes with such. It is really difficult to not be philosophical when theoretics are at hand.

Lol your right. Chimps and humans share a common ancestor and that common ancestor is more similar to chimps than to humans.

You must be new to this debate. Idc whether or not our common ancestor is chimps. The point is that humans must have come from another species with a different number of chromosomes. Hence speciation, what i've been trying to prove this whole time.

So you're just gonna ignore the mutation rate and Dr. Spetner's argument ?

You didn't come with an answer to either dilemma.

 

[cbirch2]

Follow this cbirch 'we' were not always what 'we' are. 'We' are TOLD how things happened, why are 'you' so damned confused? You are educated? I am happy to not be, then. If ya want a history lesson I would suggest to disconnect yourself from what you are told by mainstream find the woods and take your bible. Learn to read it for what it is. 'We' are forever students so please don't be offended by my words.

"'we' were not always what 'we' are." Exactly. We 'used' to be an organism with 48 chromosomes rather than 46. I dont get how you can deny this.

You get all philosophical, yet you cant seem to realize that 48 and 46 are different numbers.

Again you keep trying to base your belief off of speculation there is absolutely no evidence of what you say happened,happened.

You need to learn fact from speculation.

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

 

[Youwerecreated]

I am not denying anything other than your assertion that 'we' came from chimps. I am not saying that reversing genetics is impossible what I AM saying is that there is a mark that comes with such. It is really difficult to not be philosophical when theoretics are at hand.

Lol your right. Chimps and humans share a common ancestor and that common ancestor is more similar to chimps than to humans.

You must be new to this debate. Idc whether or not our common ancestor is chimps. The point is that humans must have come from another species with a different number of chromosomes. Hence speciation, what i've been trying to prove this whole time.

Since you like wiki so much.

Lee Spetner


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






Lee Spetner



Born

St. Louis, Missouri



Nationality

American



Fields

Physics, Biophysics



Institutions

Johns Hopkins University



Alma mater

MIT



Doctoral advisor

Robert Williams, Bruno Rossi



Known for

Critique of modern evolutionary synthesis


Lee M. Spetner is an American physicist and author, known best for his critique of the modern evolutionary synthesis. In spite of his opposition to neo-Darwinism, Spetner accepts a form of non-random evolution outlined in his 1996 book "Not By Chance! Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution"[1]





Contents
[hide] 1 Education
2 Career
3 See also
4 References
5 External links


[edit] Education

Spetner received his BS degree in mechanical engineering at Washington University in 1945.[2] and his Ph.D in physics from MIT in 1950, where his PhD. Thesis advisors were Robert Williams and Bruno Rossi.[3]

[edit] Career

Spetner continued to study at the Applied Physics Laboratory at Johns Hopkins University from 1951 to 1970 working on guided-missile systems. In 1970 he became technical director of Eljim, Ltd., later a subsidiary of Elbit, Ltd. in Nes Tsiona, Israel where he was a manager, a period that lasted a further 20 years.[2][4] His work here was on military electronic systems including electronic countermeasures, and a military electronic navigation system.[2]

He taught courses at the Johns Hopkins University, Howard University and the Weizman Institute including classical mechanics, electromagnetic theory, real-variable theory, probability theory, and statistical communication theory.[2]

Spetner first became interested in evolution in 1970 after moving to Israel. In Israel he indulged in searching for evidence which contradicted the modern evolutionary synthesis. Spetner was inspired by the rabbi David Luria (1798 - 1855), who calculated that according to Talmudic sources that there was 365 originally created species of beasts, and 365 of birds. Spetner developed what he called his "nonrandom evolutionary hypothesis", which (in common with Christian young Earth creationists) accepted microevolution (which he attributed to Lamarckian-like inheritance), but rejected macroevolution.[5]

Spetner has been described as a Jewish Creationist.[6]

In 1980 at a conference for Jewish Scientists, Spetner claimed the Archaeopteryx was a fraud. Spetner continued his attack on the modern evolutionary synthesis in his book Not by chance! Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution.[7]

Spetner is a critic of the role of mutations in the modern evolutionary synthesis. Spetner claims mutations lead to a loss of genetic information.


We see then that the mutation reduces the specificity of the ribosome protein and that means a loss of genetic information. ... Rather than saying the bacterium gained resistance to the antibiotic, it is more correct to say that is lost sensitivity to it. ... All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn out to reduce the genetic information and not increase it.

—Lee Spetner, Not by Chance, Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution[8]

Spetner continued to study after retirement, pursuing interests in evolution[4] and cancer cures.[3]

Lee Spetner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A fellow evolutionist exposing your theory.

 

[Iridescence]

It doesn't seem to matter how emotionally difficult the reality of these things are. They are the reality. What amazes me further is that some still question that it is happening and where.

 

[Youwerecreated]

"'we' were not always what 'we' are." Exactly. We 'used' to be an organism with 48 chromosomes rather than 46. I dont get how you can deny this.

You get all philosophical, yet you cant seem to realize that 48 and 46 are different numbers.

Again you keep trying to base your belief off of speculation there is absolutely no evidence of what you say happened,happened.

You need to learn fact from speculation.

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

Ah yes,Dr. Spetner agrees with me that mutations result in a loss of information.

 

[cbirch2]

I am not denying anything other than your assertion that 'we' came from chimps. I am not saying that reversing genetics is impossible what I AM saying is that there is a mark that comes with such. It is really difficult to not be philosophical when theoretics are at hand.

Lol your right. Chimps and humans share a common ancestor and that common ancestor is more similar to chimps than to humans.

You must be new to this debate. Idc whether or not our common ancestor is chimps. The point is that humans must have come from another species with a different number of chromosomes. Hence speciation, what i've been trying to prove this whole time.

So you're just gonna ignore the mutation rate and Dr. Spetner's argument ?

You didn't come with an answer to either dilemma.

Are you going to ignore chromosome two, or even work to understand what the fuck im talking about? I dont particularly care about Dr. Spetners argument. Its not based on any biology or understand of genetics. Hes never even been associated with biology, none of his degrees have anything to do with it. He just made a series of statistical predictions that are an educated guess at best. I am no where near impressed. Spetner himself believes in evolution, he just argues that it is non random.

Now how do you explain how chromosome two became fused without speciation? A fused chromosome is a definition of speciation. If we are a viable offspring of an organism that once had 48 chromosomes, then we are by definition an separate species.

The fusion of chromosome two is an undeniable fact. How can you argue that?

 

[Youwerecreated]

"'we' were not always what 'we' are." Exactly. We 'used' to be an organism with 48 chromosomes rather than 46. I dont get how you can deny this.

You get all philosophical, yet you cant seem to realize that 48 and 46 are different numbers.

Again you keep trying to base your belief off of speculation there is absolutely no evidence of what you say happened,happened.

You need to learn fact from speculation.

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

Hey genius when are you gonna respond to my questions ?

When are you start responding to the dilemmas i presented ?

No more give and take until you do.

 

[cbirch2]

Again you keep trying to base your belief off of speculation there is absolutely no evidence of what you say happened,happened.

You need to learn fact from speculation.

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

Ah yes,Dr. Spetner agrees with me that mutations result in a loss of information.

No he argued that the addition of genetic information wouldnt have occurred fast enough to evolve from bacteria to human. He doesnt argue against any and all addition of information to a genome like you do. Heres an except of an exchange between spetner and a biologist:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Spetner:[/FONT] Max’s pièce de résistance was the somatic mutations in B lymphocytes (B cells) of the vertebrate immune system as examples of random mutations that add information. He implied that Evolution could follow this method to achieve baboons from bacteria. I agree with him that these mutations add information to the B-cell genome. I also agree that they are random, but they are random only in the base changes they make; they are not random in where in the genome they can occur. More important, I do not agree that the grand sweep of evolution could be achieved through such mutations.


Only an idiot would argue that mutation cant ever result in the addition of new information.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Lol your right. Chimps and humans share a common ancestor and that common ancestor is more similar to chimps than to humans.

You must be new to this debate. Idc whether or not our common ancestor is chimps. The point is that humans must have come from another species with a different number of chromosomes. Hence speciation, what i've been trying to prove this whole time.

So you're just gonna ignore the mutation rate and Dr. Spetner's argument ?

You didn't come with an answer to either dilemma.

Are you going to ignore chromosome two, or even work to understand what the fuck im talking about? I dont particularly care about Dr. Spetners argument. Its not based on any biology or understand of genetics. Hes never even been associated with biology, none of his degrees have anything to do with it. He just made a series of statistical predictions that are an educated guess at best. I am no where near impressed. Spetner himself believes in evolution, he just argues that it is non random.

Now how do you explain how chromosome two became fused without speciation? A fused chromosome is a definition of speciation. If we are a viable offspring of an organism that once had 48 chromosomes, then we are by definition an separate species.

The fusion of chromosome two is an undeniable fact. How can you argue that?

I have never denied i am pretty sure of that chromosomes can fuse.

 

[cbirch2]

Again you keep trying to base your belief off of speculation there is absolutely no evidence of what you say happened,happened.

You need to learn fact from speculation.

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

Hey genius when are you gonna respond to my questions ?

When are you start responding to the dilemmas i presented ?

No more give and take until you do.

Lol what the fuck does the fruitfly have to do with anything. If anything fruitflies have shown the beginnings of speciation. When two groups of fruitflies were isolated for successive generations, and then mixed again to mate, they always chose partners of their own group if possible.

 

[Iridescence]

Dr Lee Spetner specifically says: "(1) the mutation rate in this model is much higher than what is seen in non-immunoglobulin genes and in non-B-cells; and (2) these “hypermutations” are mediated by “special enzymes.” With regard to your first point, I agree that the mutation rate is higher in the B cell example than in evolution, but I fail to see why that fact weakens the usefulness of the example as a model for evolution."

 

[cbirch2]

So you're just gonna ignore the mutation rate and Dr. Spetner's argument ?

You didn't come with an answer to either dilemma.

Are you going to ignore chromosome two, or even work to understand what the fuck im talking about? I dont particularly care about Dr. Spetners argument. Its not based on any biology or understand of genetics. Hes never even been associated with biology, none of his degrees have anything to do with it. He just made a series of statistical predictions that are an educated guess at best. I am no where near impressed. Spetner himself believes in evolution, he just argues that it is non random.

Now how do you explain how chromosome two became fused without speciation? A fused chromosome is a definition of speciation. If we are a viable offspring of an organism that once had 48 chromosomes, then we are by definition an separate species.

The fusion of chromosome two is an undeniable fact. How can you argue that?

I have never denied i am pretty sure of that chromosomes can fuse.

Thanks for admitting speciation.

If your admitting that primitive humans have an extra chromosome pair than you are admitting that modern humans are the result of a speciation event sometime in the past (the fusion of two chromosomes into Human Chromosome 2).

 

[cbirch2]

Dr Lee Spetner specifically says: "(1) the mutation rate in this model is much higher than what is seen in non-immunoglobulin genes and in non-B-cells; and (2) these “hypermutations” are mediated by “special enzymes.” With regard to your first point, I agree that the mutation rate is higher in the B cell example than in evolution, but I fail to see why that fact weakens the usefulness of the example as a model for evolution."

Taken out of context that quote sounds more like evidence for evolution. YWC's entire argument is that mutations dont happen fast enough or even at all it seems like. In that quote Spetner is admitting exactly the opposite.

 

[Dr.Drock]

So you're just gonna ignore the mutation rate and Dr. Spetner's argument ?

You didn't come with an answer to either dilemma.

Are you going to ignore chromosome two, or even work to understand what the fuck im talking about? I dont particularly care about Dr. Spetners argument. Its not based on any biology or understand of genetics. Hes never even been associated with biology, none of his degrees have anything to do with it. He just made a series of statistical predictions that are an educated guess at best. I am no where near impressed. Spetner himself believes in evolution, he just argues that it is non random.

Now how do you explain how chromosome two became fused without speciation? A fused chromosome is a definition of speciation. If we are a viable offspring of an organism that once had 48 chromosomes, then we are by definition an separate species.

The fusion of chromosome two is an undeniable fact. How can you argue that?

I have never denied i am pretty sure of that chromosomes can fuse.

Founder Effect Speciation and Chromosomes and Speciation

For the rest of the lecture we will consider a different topic of relevance to speciation. We have considered speciation so far as occurring as a result of relatively small scale genetic changes that build up, through natural selection and genetic drift, so that populations evolve to become different species. There are also, however, larger scale mutations that may cause much more rapid speciation. We will consider these now.

We will define chromosomal mutations as large-scale changes in chromosomal structure or number. These can occur in several ways; we will consider three main kinds of chromosomal mutation:

Fusions occur when two small chromosomes combine to form one larger chromosome. A common way in which this occurs is for two chromosomes with centromeres very near the end of the chromosome to fuse into one large chromosome with the centromere in the middle, as shown in the following picture. Note that when chromosomes become fused like this, the total number of chromosomes is decreased.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Well done Birch, it only took 29 pages but finally an admittance that speciation happens.

 

[Youwerecreated]

"'we' were not always what 'we' are." Exactly. We 'used' to be an organism with 48 chromosomes rather than 46. I dont get how you can deny this.

You get all philosophical, yet you cant seem to realize that 48 and 46 are different numbers.

Again you keep trying to base your belief off of speculation there is absolutely no evidence of what you say happened,happened.

You need to learn fact from speculation.

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

The biggest problem for your theory oops, i mean Dr. Millers theory is this. It get's in the way of the real problem. It's not just the difference in the number of Chromosomes in both chimp and human. It's the information contained in the Chromosomes. The ape went through anatomical restructuring to develop .The ape had to learn to speak,stand upright,sing,expience emotions,by random processes in other words by chance. To which none of this has been observed.

Despitel similarities between human and ape chromosomes, there are important differences on the molecular level. many protein coding genes in humans that are just human and are not found in chimps. The differences in genes that don't code for proteins. Genes have been described which code for micro rna. The miro rna molecule is not translated, but acts directly to control gene expression. One micro rna can regulate the expression of dozens or even hundreds of genes. A study done on micro rnas expressed in the brain found fifty one of four hundred fortyseven micro rnas were distinctly human and only 25 in the chimp.

The thought of many genes were altered so that they are expressed in the proper concentration cell type and can effectively control the many different genes they regulate is not what we would expect of a chance process. It makes more sense to believe God created the chimp distinct from a human. How is that for logic ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

Ah yes,Dr. Spetner agrees with me that mutations result in a loss of information.

No he argued that the addition of genetic information wouldnt have occurred fast enough to evolve from bacteria to human. He doesnt argue against any and all addition of information to a genome like you do. Heres an except of an exchange between spetner and a biologist:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Spetner:[/FONT] Max’s pièce de résistance was the somatic mutations in B lymphocytes (B cells) of the vertebrate immune system as examples of random mutations that add information. He implied that Evolution could follow this method to achieve baboons from bacteria. I agree with him that these mutations add information to the B-cell genome. I also agree that they are random, but they are random only in the base changes they make; they are not random in where in the genome they can occur. More important, I do not agree that the grand sweep of evolution could be achieved through such mutations.


Only an idiot would argue that mutation cant ever result in the addition of new information.

Quoted from wiki.

Spetner is a critic of the role of mutations in the modern evolutionary synthesis. Spetner claims mutations lead to a loss of genetic information.

Lee Spetner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[cbirch2]

Ah yes,Dr. Spetner agrees with me that mutations result in a loss of information.

No he argued that the addition of genetic information wouldnt have occurred fast enough to evolve from bacteria to human. He doesnt argue against any and all addition of information to a genome like you do. Heres an except of an exchange between spetner and a biologist:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Spetner:[/FONT] Max’s pièce de résistance was the somatic mutations in B lymphocytes (B cells) of the vertebrate immune system as examples of random mutations that add information. He implied that Evolution could follow this method to achieve baboons from bacteria. I agree with him that these mutations add information to the B-cell genome. I also agree that they are random, but they are random only in the base changes they make; they are not random in where in the genome they can occur. More important, I do not agree that the grand sweep of evolution could be achieved through such mutations.


Only an idiot would argue that mutation cant ever result in the addition of new information.

Quoted from wiki.

Spetner is a critic of the role of mutations in the modern evolutionary synthesis. Spetner claims mutations lead to a loss of genetic information.

Lee Spetner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And i just showed you spetner admitting hes wrong.

 

[Youwerecreated]

How is this speculation? Do you understand what im saying. When i ask you why chromosome two has a primary centromere and a vestigial centromere, do you understand the significance of that question? When i ask you why the same chromosome has obvious telomere sequences at its middle do you understand what im talking about?

Those two things can only exist as a result of the fusion of two chromosomes. How dont you get this? Its not speculation you idiot.

Hey genius when are you gonna respond to my questions ?

When are you start responding to the dilemmas i presented ?

No more give and take until you do.

Lol what the fuck does the fruitfly have to do with anything. If anything fruitflies have shown the beginnings of speciation. When two groups of fruitflies were isolated for successive generations, and then mixed again to mate, they always chose partners of their own group if possible.

You make all these claims on genetics,here is something taught in the field of genetics you should know. The fruitfly is only the most tested organism in the field of science. Where do you think we get a lot of our theories from.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Dr Lee Spetner specifically says: "(1) the mutation rate in this model is much higher than what is seen in non-immunoglobulin genes and in non-B-cells; and (2) these “hypermutations” are mediated by “special enzymes.” With regard to your first point, I agree that the mutation rate is higher in the B cell example than in evolution, but I fail to see why that fact weakens the usefulness of the example as a model for evolution."

Mutation rate,that is not what i am saying. I am saying Spetner believed mutations resulted in the loss of information.