Dresden in 1945

[rampart]

One of Vonnegut's better ones. But he may have been a bit overrated as an author compared to his peers.

i'll disagree on vonnegut. one of my favorites is "cats cradle.".

 

[Grau]

Wrong!
That "80%" (which you fail to document!) started to shrink in the two plus years between Sept. 1939 and Dec. 1941. As shown in excerpts and links above.

I'm afraid that you're the one who is mistaken.

"Gallup Vault: U.S. Opinion and the Start of World War II"​

Gallup Vault: U.S. Opinion and the Start of World War II

On Sept. 1, 1939, Nazi Germany invaded Poland. At the time, Americans favored supporting the Poles, up to a point.

news.gallup.com

EXCERPT "In a separate question in the same 1939 poll, Americans were specifically asked if the U.S. should declare war on Germany in support of England, France and Poland and should deploy forces to assist those countries. Americans were strongly opposed, with 90% rejecting the idea and 8% in favor." CONTINUED

The pro War FDR was complicit with British efforts to perpetuate WW 2 after Churchill rejected the Hitler - Hess peace offer of 10 May 1941.

Churchill preferred to destroy Germany but only if it could succeed in duping gullible Americans to join them.

War mongering FDR, then, welcomed the fake map showing German fictional plans to invade S. and then N. America and FDR proceeded to work with a foreign government to expand WW 2 to the disastrous event that it was.


“A Map of Nazi South America (Forged by the British)”

“This map makes clear the Nazi design, not only against South America but against the United States as well”, said FDR

A Map of Nazi South America (Forged by the British)

“This map makes clear the Nazi design, not only against South America but against the United States as well”, said FDR

bigthink.com

QUOTE:
“Hitler has often protested that his plans for conquest do not extend across the Atlantic Ocean. I have in my possession a secret map, made in Germany by Hitler’s government – by the planners of the new world order. It is a map of South America and a part of Central America as Hitler proposes to reorganize it,” revealed US President Franklin D. Roosevelt in his Navy Day address to the nation, broadcast on 27 October 1941. CONTINUED

 

[Grau]

What an idiotic comment.

Now that I have got that out of the way...

Dresden held no military value, it was a purely punitive bombing to destroy all those majestic buildings and architecture.

Bomber Harris was behind it.

You're right about Dresden having no military value.

Because the German military was putting up such stiff resistance, Churchill, FDR & Stalin chose to bomb civilians to demoralize soldiers at the front and "roast refugees".

By the way, the war criminal, Harris, was called "Butcher Harris" by his men.

Thanks,

 

[DudleySmith]

I've seen pre War photos of Dresden and its destruction was among the war's worst war crimes.
In a just world, those behind the firebombing of Dresden would have been hung along with those "just following orders" of Arthur "the Butcher" Harris and the grossly over rated Winston Churchill whose objective of the cowardly mass murder was to "roast German refugees":


“I do not want suggestions as to how we can disable the economy and the machinery of war, what I want are suggestions as to how we can roast the German refugees on their escape from Breslau.”

Prime Minister Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill: the Imperial Monster

Fear-Monger, War Criminal, Racist

www.counterpunch.org

Dresden was just one of the countless civilian areas that was targeted by the same mass murdering war criminals.

Thanks,

So you're saying Germany reaped what it sowed, in both word wars. They started the business of terror bombing of cities by air and unrestricted submarine warfare. Sucks being on the receiving end of your shit tactics. You're lucky Americans didn't shove you all into ovens after the war.

 

[Bleipriester]

do you know what happened in Dresden today in 1945?

what do you think about it …. if you know about it?

Dresden: Nazi Zombies don´t walk the line

While there is no day, the death toll murdered by "Nazi Germany" doesn´t increase, more and more German victims didn´t die. As undead Nazi Zombies thounsands upon thousands scroll through Dresden and elsewhere and they become more every year. By a German authority in 1992 the German police...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[Zebra]

You're lucky Americans didn't shove you all into ovens after the war.

ou seem go be very german.friendly

 

[Zebra]

The problem is that Dresden had no military targets, so then was never attacked before, and all the defenses were removed.
The Dresden attack was not just "fire bombing".
It was an intentional attempt to test a method of destroying whole cities, with a fire storm.
The idea was to come through first with conventional explosives, to cave in the roofs of the buildings.
Then come through with a wave of bombers carrying the newly invented napalm.
The goal was to turn each bombed out building into a chimney.
Which then collectively would produce enough air rising in order to create 100 mph tornado winds.

And your hinting at Hamas that "hides intentionally in a civilian population" is totally and completely false.
The reality is that the Palestinians never were allowed any arms, by the Ottoman Empire or the British, so they ARE civilians.
Which means they are NOT "hiding" as soldiers among civilians but ARE civilians and have a right to hide.
That is because it was illegal for Israel to ever do any of the atrocities they are guilty of, and civilians have a right to any sort of partisan retribution they can come up with.
Go back and read what actually happened.
Like Menachim Begin blowing up the King David hotel in order to murder the British peacekeepers in 1946.
Then he gunned down Folke Bernadotte, the UN moderator.
All so no one could stop him from massacring hundreds of native villages like Deir Yassin.
And to read about Deir Yassin, you can find letters from Albert Einstein who witnessed the firing squads murdering women and children.
Albert Einstein Letter to The New York Times. December 4, 1948 New Palestine Party. Visit of Menachen Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed : Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook, et.al. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
{...
The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants (240 men, women, and children) and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
...}

Needless to say, Albert Einstein turned down the offer of Presidency of Israel.

do you know the name …


anne helm …..


she id a german who tanked bomber harris for killing 25,000 people in Dresden

 

[Zebra]

Anne Helm


born 1986 in Rostock, east germany

shame on her!

 

[DudleySmith]

ou seem go be very german.friendly

I am. I'm also a fan of real history, and there are few innocent peoples in it. Most problems are self-inflicted.

 

[Mushroom]

savagely targeting civilians didn't really do much to shorten the war and only made those doing it look uncivilized.

One thing about the Allied Powers, they only started to do that when the Axis Powers started doing that.

And it did shorten the war, because the target at places like Tokyo and Dresden was not the civilians at all, it was the industrial infrastructure they were living next to. This was WWII, and none of the weapons used were very accurate at all. That is why it often took hundreds of bombers to strike a single city, and multiple waves of attacks. Sometimes they were lucky if 5% of the bombs actually hit their targets.

And Dresden was a legitimate military target. It had the largest railyards in Germany, in addition to over 200 factories churning out wartime goods. It was the home to oil plants, aircraft and tank factories, anti-aircraft and artillery factories. And the largest manufacturer of optics in the country.

And if the situations were reversed, the Axis would have been just as justified in conducting similar attacks on Los Angeles, as it was almost the mirror of Dresden during WWII. Being a major transit hub, in addition to being a major manufacturer of a lot of war goods. Primarily ships and aircraft, but also major components in almost every other area from artillery to tanks and beyond.

 

[Mushroom]

EXCERPT "In a separate question in the same 1939 poll, Americans were specifically asked if the U.S. should declare war on Germany in support of England, France and Poland and should deploy forces to assist those countries.

The problem is that the question is about the US entering the war in Europe.

You know, it is called a "World War" for a reason. And by 1939, over half of the country was already expecting to be in a war in the near future with Japan.

You are correct in that they did not want to participate in a war in Europe. But that is also a seriously loaded question, and you are specifically framing it in a slanted way. However, the American public were also overwhelming in their support of sending war goods to England and other Allied Nations, even though it was know that might ultimately drag the US into the war.

But the US was not so split when it came to Japan. With in 1939 most knowing that war was going to happen, and that it would likely be a long war. But ultimately, the only real reason that the US was in Europe was because the retarded leaders of Germany and Italy declared war against the US. Der Wall Painter and Il Lamp Ornament would have saved a lot of people grief if they had just offed themselves in 1941, because ultimately those decisions cost them the war.

 

[Mushroom]

You're right about Dresden having no military value.

So you are saying that factories that build aircraft, tanks, artillery, anti-aircraft guns, and optics are of no military value? In addition to the fuel depots, oil refineries, and all of the others?

Saying that is as retarded as trying to say that Omaha, Nebraska had no military value.

 

[Rigby5]

PART 3:

No we did not!
We(USA) expected aggressive actions by Japan, and had broken some of their codes, but had no clear indications of what would happen (when, where, how, etc.) until the actual time of the attacks. Japan's naval forces had left Homeland waters in secret and maintained radio silence until the attack. Hence the USA had no idea where they were or what their specific intentions/targets were.


NOPE!
Again, more gross ignorance or blatant disinformation.

The Pacific Fleet had main base moved from San Diego to Pearl Harbor in order to be closer to respond to growing aggression of Japan in East Asia. Especially should such shift towards the Philippines which is where USA military strategic thinking expected opening attacks by Japan to occur.

Given the shortage of USN training in battle damage procedures, had the Battleship Fleet been out of harbor and at sea when attacked the damage in sinkage and deaths would have been far greater by several times. As it was, only one of the eight battleships in harbor was permanently lost/destroyed (Arizona), the other seven all eventually raised/repaired and would see service before war's end. Also casualties of personnel were close to hospitals where they could be treated rather than lost at sea. Ironically, the best thing that could have happened was to be attacked in a shallow harbor where the ships would not be permanently lost in very deep waters.

Due to the Neutrality Act, the USN was providing naval escort in the Western Atlantic to shipping/convoys headed to England prior to Dec. 1941 and some USN ships had been attacked and sunk* by German U-boats providing "cause belie" for the USA to enter the war against Germany.

USS Reuben James (DD-245)​

...

World War II​

Main article: Battle of the Atlantic

At the beginning of World War II in Europe in September 1939, she was assigned to the Neutrality Patrol, which guarded the Atlantic and the Caribbean approaches to the American coast. In March 1941, Reuben James joined the force established to escort convoys sailing to Great Britain. The force escorted convoys as far as Iceland after which the convoys became the responsibility of British escorts. The force was based at Hvalfjordur, Iceland, and commanded by Lieutenant Commander Heywood Lane Edwards, the commander of the USS Reuben James.[1]

On 23 October she sailed from Naval Station Argentia, Newfoundland, with four other destroyers, escorting eastbound Convoy HX 156.[2]

Sinking​

At dawn on 31 October 1941, she was torpedoed near Iceland[3] by German submarine U-552 commanded by Kapitänleutnant Erich Topp. Reuben James had positioned herself between an ammunition ship in the convoy and the known position of a German "wolfpack," a group of submarines poised to attack the convoy. The destroyer was not flying the ensign of the United States and was in the process of dropping depth charges on another U-boat when she was engaged.[4] Reuben James was hit forward by a torpedo meant for a merchant ship and her entire bow was blown off when a magazine exploded. The bow sank immediately. The aft section floated for five minutes before going down. Of a crew of seven officers and 136 enlisted men, plus one enlisted passenger, 100 were killed. That left only 44 enlisted men and no officers who survived the attack.[1][3]
....

USS Reuben James (DD-245) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.......
The rest of your post is inconsequential gibberish.

Totally wrong.

We did not just "break some of the Japanese codes", but broke ALL of them, so that we knew exactly what they were planning.
The USS Ruben James escorting weapons to England was illegal.

The fact we sent ships to the Pacific is not suspicious, but the fact we insisted only OLD and OBSOLETE ships were allowed in Pearl Harbor, is VERY suspicious.
The 12 new aircraft carriers were NOT allowed to be at Pearl Harbor.

 

[Rigby5]

It was changing even before that, after the Rape of Nanking. At that time, China was a US Ally and there were increasing worries about the Philippines which was a US Commonwealth. Most already knew by that time that Japan would likely not stop their expansion, so it was never a question of if a war would start, but when.

I often shake my head as many of the posters in here, as they post things that are almost entirely made up in their own minds and have no consideration of the world situation at the time. But the US never really had any interest to fight in Europe, even before the war broke out we were almost entirely watching Japan. If Germany and Italy had never declared war against the US, the US might never have gotten involved in the European theater.

But you are forgetting Japan originally had no expansion ambitions at all, and it was Admiral Perry's visit to Tokyo with a fleet, that scared them into realizing they need an empire in order to be safe from the US and criminal allies.

 

[Rigby5]

And it was attacked several hours later.

One of the main purposes of striking Pearl Harbor was because Japan knew what the response of the US would be. And they were correct in that, as it was all laid out in War Plan Orange.

The Pacific Fleet would react to an attack on the Philippines by setting sail immediately as a relief force. The Battleships to try and attack any troop ships and targets they find, while the carriers went into ferry modes (which is what they were already doing at that time). Leaving and steaming as fast as they could to the Philippines, unloading almost all of their aircraft to defend the island, then returning to the US to get more.

We actually had a rather elaborate plan in place for when the war broke out. And it was correct, in that the main goal of Japan was capturing the Philippines. However, with the loss of the Battleships, the US had a severe lack in capability to both take hostile beaches as well as defending the rest of their fleet. Yes, carriers did prove their worth, but it also showed that carrier warfare is very wasteful in manpower. Midway was a great victory, but also a horrible loss of highly skilled and trained aviators. Our losses would actually have been a hell of a lot less if we could have gotten two Battleships within range of the Japanese carriers. Battleships are designed to take a lot of punishment, but carriers are amazingly "soft targets", and could be sunk rather easily with only a few hits with their main guns.

To use modern video game terminology, think of carriers as "glass cannons", and battleships as "meat tanks".

And contrary to popular belief, a carrier had absolutely no chance against a battleship. And on 8 December Japan had 10 Battleships, the US Pacific Fleet had none. Nine were sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor, the USS Pennsylvania had moderate damage as she was in dry dock at Pearl, and the USS Colorado was undergoing a refit in Washington. And without our Battleships, we were simply not going to send our Carriers out into risky waters as they would have no defense from Japanese Battleships or cruisers.

And this would actually be seen less than a year later at the Battle of Savo Island. Part of the Guadalcanal operation, they did land Marines and take part of the islands against light Japanese resistance. But once they learned of a large Japanese force moving in that direction, the Carriers and their escorts all turned around and left. Something that left a bad taste in the mouth of many Marines, as they felt like they had been abandoned. But the hard truth is that they had no choice, as the Japanese force had 6 Heavy Cruisers, any one of which could have easily sunk the carriers if they had gotten within range. And without Battleships to stand off the cruisers, they simply had no choice but to leave.

Wrong.
We only lost obsolete WWI ships at Pearl Harbor.
They were built before air attacks, so have no deck defense against bombs, so were worthless.
We lost no carriers or functional battleships.
And no, in every conflict, battleships turned out to be pretty much useless, and carrier beat battleships every time.
Which is why no one bothers building battleships anymore.
Totally useless.

 

[Rigby5]

Yes. We were unofficially at war with Germany before the official declarations came along, trying to maintain a defensive line in the Atlantic to protect shipping against German Naval raids and subs.

Protecting weapons shipments to belligerents in a war is illegal.

 

[Rigby5]

Shit happens when you start a war.

The Allies started the war actually, in 1916 and with the criminal Treaty of Versailles.
Nothing excuses targeting civilians, just as an experiment.

 

[Weatherman2020]

The Allies started the war actually, in 1916 and with the criminal Treaty of Versailles.
Nothing excuses targeting civilians, just as an experiment.

Thanks for the input, Adolf.
I’m sure the Jews were involved too.

 

[Rigby5]

The problem is that the question is about the US entering the war in Europe.

You know, it is called a "World War" for a reason. And by 1939, over half of the country was already expecting to be in a war in the near future with Japan.

You are correct in that they did not want to participate in a war in Europe. But that is also a seriously loaded question, and you are specifically framing it in a slanted way. However, the American public were also overwhelming in their support of sending war goods to England and other Allied Nations, even though it was know that might ultimately drag the US into the war.

But the US was not so split when it came to Japan. With in 1939 most knowing that war was going to happen, and that it would likely be a long war. But ultimately, the only real reason that the US was in Europe was because the retarded leaders of Germany and Italy declared war against the US. Der Wall Painter and Il Lamp Ornament would have saved a lot of people grief if they had just offed themselves in 1941, because ultimately those decisions cost them the war.

The US had no effect on the European front, since the Russians had already beaten the Germans before D-Day even happened.
Kursk was the turning point.

{...
The Battle of Kursk was a major World War II Eastern Front battle between the forces of Germany and the Soviet Union near Kursk in southwestern Russia during the summer of 1943; it ultimately became the largest tank battle in history and resulted in a Soviet victory.[35][36] It is considered by some to be the turning point of the European theatre of war instead of the Battle of Stalingrad several months earlier.
...}

D-Day was in June 6, 1944 when Allied forces invaded northern France by means of beach landings in Normandy.
It was already a done deal by then, and just mopping up.

 

[Rigby5]

So you are saying that factories that build aircraft, tanks, artillery, anti-aircraft guns, and optics are of no military value? In addition to the fuel depots, oil refineries, and all of the others?

Saying that is as retarded as trying to say that Omaha, Nebraska had no military value.

There were no factories in Dresden building military "aircraft, tanks, artillery, anti-aircraft guns, or optics".
Only civilian goods were made in Dresden in any volume.
There were no oil refineries in Dresden.
Fuel depots are civilian and not valid targets.
Omaha Nebraska does have no military value and would be illegal to target.