Dresden in 1945

[Rigby5]

Oh?
Let me guess. All of the citizens of Dresden made a living by making chocolates and bon bons.

It was an ancient city with lots of cultural aspects that people did not want to disturb with factories.

 

[Mushroom]

The only WWI ship lost at Pearl Harbor was the USS Utah which had been converted to a target ship

Mostly true Fact.

USS Pennsylvania BB-38, entered service in 1918. But was still undergoing training when the war ended. The same with the USS Arizona (BB-39).

The USS Nevada (BB-36) did see WWI service. But she had also been significantly modernized between the wars, including getting new boilers from the North Dakota class ships in addition to having her armor significantly increased.

The USS Tennessee (BB-43) was one of two Tennessee class ships, which was post-war entering service in 1921 and 1922. The other ship of the class was the USS California, unique as it was also the only Battleship built on the West Coast.

The USS Oklahoma (BB-37) also saw service in WWI, being a sister ship to the USS Nevada. And just like BB-36, she saw a significant upgrade in the 1930s thanks to the cancelled South Dakota class.

The USS Colorado (BB-45) entered service at the end of 1923, and construction had not even started until 1919. So unquestionably not WWI era.

USS Maryland (BB-46) was a sister ship to the USS Colorado, entering service at the end of 1922.

USS West Virginia (BB-48) was another Colorado class ship, and entered service in 1923.

So when looking, of the 8 "Battleships" sunk in the attack, we have the following breakdown. One was already decommissioned and an auxiliary ship. Two had barely entered service at the end of WWI and three others did see service. But those three had also been significantly modernized less than a decade before the war. Including new boilers, new guns, and significant increases in their guns. About the only thing left of the original WWI ships was the hull and turrets themselves. But because of various Naval Treaties, the final three were among the newest Battleships in the entire US Navy.

That would be like looking at say a PATRIOT missile launcher today, and making the mistake of thinking it is the same launcher that was first put into service at the start of the Reagan Administration. Yes, technically it is the same, because it is the same trailer. But damned near everything else on that system from the generator that powers it to the missiles it fires have been modernized so many times that it really has almost nothing in common with the original 1980 launcher.

Or thinking that a current M60A3 still in service around the world is the same tank as the original M60 that was designed in the wake of the Korean War. It may indeed be built on the hull of a 1950s tank, but it has little else in common with the 1950s tank.

 

[Mushroom]

You could say that about any major city in Germany, it provides justification for their bombing but there was nothing in Dresden that warranted that level of destruction

Oh, just factories that churned out aircraft, tanks, artillery, and anti-aircraft guns.

Oh, and the largest optics company in the nation. A key item needed in almost everything military related by that point. No optics, you have no tanks, no anti-aircraft guns, no artillery, no bomb sights, and no ships.

Oh, and the city was the source of almost half of Germany's POL.

 

[Rigby5]

The large number of factories churning out war material were not of "military value"?

It was only 3 months from the end of the way, and no factories were "churning out" anything, because they no longer had any raw materials or means of shipping anything.

 

[Rigby5]

Mostly true Fact.

USS Pennsylvania BB-38, entered service in 1918. But was still undergoing training when the war ended. The same with the USS Arizona (BB-39).

The USS Nevada (BB-36) did see WWI service. But she had also been significantly modernized between the wars, including getting new boilers from the North Dakota class ships in addition to having her armor significantly increased.

The USS Tennessee (BB-43) was one of two Tennessee class ships, which was post-war entering service in 1921 and 1922. The other ship of the class was the USS California, unique as it was also the only Battleship built on the West Coast.

The USS Oklahoma (BB-37) also saw service in WWI, being a sister ship to the USS Nevada. And just like BB-36, she saw a significant upgrade in the 1930s thanks to the cancelled South Dakota class.

The USS Colorado (BB-45) entered service at the end of 1923, and construction had not even started until 1919. So unquestionably not WWI era.

USS Maryland (BB-46) was a sister ship to the USS Colorado, entering service at the end of 1922.

USS West Virginia (BB-48) was another Colorado class ship, and entered service in 1923.

So when looking, of the 8 "Battleships" sunk in the attack, we have the following breakdown. One was already decommissioned and an auxiliary ship. Two had barely entered service at the end of WWI and three others did see service. But those three had also been significantly modernized less than a decade before the war. Including new boilers, new guns, and significant increases in their guns. About the only thing left of the original WWI ships was the hull and turrets themselves. But because of various Naval Treaties, the final three were among the newest Battleships in the entire US Navy.

That would be like looking at say a PATRIOT missile launcher today, and making the mistake of thinking it is the same launcher that was first put into service at the start of the Reagan Administration. Yes, technically it is the same, because it is the same trailer. But damned near everything else on that system from the generator that powers it to the missiles it fires have been modernized so many times that it really has almost nothing in common with the original 1980 launcher.

Or thinking that a current M60A3 still in service around the world is the same tank as the original M60 that was designed in the wake of the Korean War. It may indeed be built on the hull of a 1950s tank, but it has little else in common with the 1950s tank.

Wrong.
You miss the point entirely.
Which is that all the ships left at Pearl Harbor were from the era of WWI, regardless if they were 5 years later or not, and had no deck armor.
So they could no longer be used on normal fleet operations, where they would be sitting ducks to dive bomber attacks.
They were only slightly used, and that was only for shore bombardment after all enemy aircraft had been secured from the area.

The only real battleships we used in WWII were the Iowa class.
{...
The Iowa class was a class of six fast battleships ordered by the United States Navy in 1939 and 1940. They were initially intended to intercept fast capital ships such as the Japanese Kongō class while also being capable of serving in a traditional battle line alongside slower battleships and act as its "fast wing".[3][4] The Iowa class was designed to meet the Second London Naval Treaty's "escalator clause" limit of 45,000-long-ton (45,700 t) standard displacement. Beginning in August 1942, four vessels, Iowa, New Jersey, Missouri, and Wisconsin, were completed;
...}

 

[Rigby5]

So you're saying Germany reaped what it sowed, in both word wars. They started the business of terror bombing of cities by air and unrestricted submarine warfare. Sucks being on the receiving end of your shit tactics. You're lucky Americans didn't shove you all into ovens after the war.

Wrong.
Germany was not really responsible for either war.

WWI was started by the Russians ordering the Serbian Blackhand to train and arm Princip to assassinate Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, and France invaded southern Germany.

WWII was started by the war crimes the Allies created in WWI, like the illegal starvation attack on food shipping, the theft of half of Germany, the theft of all the ships, foreign companies, money, etc., Germany had.

And it was the Allies who started the "terror bombing" and submarine warfare, not Germany.

The ONLY "ovens" were used to cremate those who died from a contagious plague.

 

[Weatherman2020]

It was an ancient city with lots of cultural aspects that people did not want to disturb with factories.

So the hundreds of thousands of residents made chocolates for a living.

There were 8 raids. 6 on the huge railroad facilities. 1 on the industrial complex, 1 on the city.

But I could care less. Germans were supporting the war. I knew a guy who was almost beaten to death by farmers after he bailed out. A Gestapo officer saved him.

 

[Rigby5]

London was the first city bombed.

A couple of bombs that dropped by accident, and did no harm.
The attacks on Berlin were large and intentional.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Wrong.
Germany was not really responsible for either war.

WWI was started by the Russians ordering the Serbian Blackhand to train and arm Princip to assassinate Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, and France invaded southern Germany.

WWII was started by the war crimes the Allies created in WWI, like the illegal starvation attack on food shipping, the theft of half of Germany, the theft of all the ships, foreign companies, money, etc., Germany had.

And it was the Allies who started the "terror bombing" and submarine warfare, not Germany.

The ONLY "ovens" were used to cremate those who died from a contagious plague.

Those Poles attacked Germany!

 

[Weatherman2020]

A couple of bombs that dropped by accident, and did no harm.
The attacks on Berlin were large and intentional.

Berlin was an accident. Oops. They slipped.

 

[Rigby5]

So the hundreds of thousands of residents made chocolates for a living.

There were 8 raids. 6 on the huge railroad facilities. 1 on the industrial complex, 1 on the city.

But I could care less. Germans were supporting the war. I knew a guy who was almost beaten to death by farmers after he bailed out. A Gestapo officer saved him.

Most air raids target specific buildings or at least areas.
The fire storm we created at Dresden was deliberately designed to wipe out the whole population with a firestorm.
Most who died were suffocated in their shelters, as the firestorm used up all the oxygen.
It was accomplished with napalm, which these days is considered an illegal war crime by almost everyone.

 

[DudleySmith]

The rail connections through Dresden were a strategic target all by themselves, as were the road connections.

"This early war 1938 dated German infantry combat map is titled “Dresden”. As a major center for Nazi Germany’s rail and road network, Dresden’s destruction was intended to overwhelm German authorities and services and clog all transportation routes with throngs of refugees. The Allied assault came a less than a month after some 19,000 U.S. troops were killed in Germany's last-ditch offensive at the Battle of the Bulge, and three weeks after the grim discovery of the atrocities committed by Nazi forces at Auschwitz. The punishing, three-day Allied bombing attack on Dresden from February 13 to 15 in the final months of World War II became among the most controversial Allied actions of the war. The 800-bomber raid dropped some 2,700 tons of explosives and incendiaries and decimated the German city.

Based on the early war date, this map was used during the war extensively as this area saw extensive masses of German troops and supplies. During the was Dresden was a very important city for Hitler and the German Army as this geographical area saw much movement of German troops in the area."

1938 Dated German "Dresden" Map - Major Center for Nazi Germany’s Rail and Road Networks — Premier Relics

Size: 21.5 x 21.5 inches This early war 1938 dated German infantry combat map is titled “Dresden”. As a major center for Nazi Germany’s rail and road network, Dresden’s destruction was intended to overwhelm German authorities and services and clog all transportation routes with throngs o

premierrelics.com

 

[Rigby5]

Those Poles attacked Germany!

Poland did not exist until after WWI and the Treaty of Versailles.
That is because around 1600 the Old Polish Empire was the largest and more evil empire in the entire world.
The whole of Europe grouped together to defeat the Old Polish Empire.
It was the ancestors of Vlad the Impaler.
Incredibly racist and violent.
The Ukrainians in Kyiv as also ancestors of Vlad the Impaler.

 

[Rigby5]

The only WWI ship lost at Pearl Harbor was the USS Utah which had been converted to a target ship

Wrong.
The only modern battleships were the Iowa class, and they were deliberately kept away from Pearl Harbor.
All the ships at Pearl Harbor were WWI era design.

 

[DudleySmith]

Wrong.
Germany was not really responsible for either war.

WWI was started by the Russians ordering the Serbian Blackhand to train and arm Princip to assassinate Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, and France invaded southern Germany.

WWII was started by the war crimes the Allies created in WWI, like the illegal starvation attack on food shipping, the theft of half of Germany, the theft of all the ships, foreign companies, money, etc., Germany had.

And it was the Allies who started the "terror bombing" and submarine warfare, not Germany.

The ONLY "ovens" were used to cremate those who died from a contagious plague.

lol rubbish.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Poland did not exist until after WWI and the Treaty of Versailles.
That is because around 1600 the Old Polish Empire was the largest and more evil empire in the entire world.
The whole of Europe grouped together to defeat the Old Polish Empire.
It was the ancestors of Vlad the Impaler.
Incredibly racist and violent.
The Ukrainians in Kyiv as also ancestors of Vlad the Impaler.

Poland was a sovereign nation.
Figures you’d be a liar for NAZIS.

 

[Rigby5]

The rail connections through Dresden were a strategic target all by themselves, as were the road connections.

"This early war 1938 dated German infantry combat map is titled “Dresden”. As a major center for Nazi Germany’s rail and road network, Dresden’s destruction was intended to overwhelm German authorities and services and clog all transportation routes with throngs of refugees. The Allied assault came a less than a month after some 19,000 U.S. troops were killed in Germany's last-ditch offensive at the Battle of the Bulge, and three weeks after the grim discovery of the atrocities committed by Nazi forces at Auschwitz. The punishing, three-day Allied bombing attack on Dresden from February 13 to 15 in the final months of World War II became among the most controversial Allied actions of the war. The 800-bomber raid dropped some 2,700 tons of explosives and incendiaries and decimated the German city.

Based on the early war date, this map was used during the war extensively as this area saw extensive masses of German troops and supplies. During the was Dresden was a very important city for Hitler and the German Army as this geographical area saw much movement of German troops in the area."

1938 Dated German "Dresden" Map - Major Center for Nazi Germany’s Rail and Road Networks — Premier Relics

Size: 21.5 x 21.5 inches This early war 1938 dated German infantry combat map is titled “Dresden”. As a major center for Nazi Germany’s rail and road network, Dresden’s destruction was intended to overwhelm German authorities and services and clog all transportation routes with throngs o

premierrelics.com

Wrong.
The US was asked to bomb railyards by those wanting to save the lives of Jews, and FDR refused.

 

[Rigby5]

Poland was a sovereign nation.
Figures you’d be a liar for NAZIS.

Poland was part of Germany before the Treaty of Versailles.
East Prussia was up against Russia.
There was no Poland.
In fact, there was no the Ukraine either.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Poland was part of Germany before the Treaty of Versailles.
East Prussia was up against Russia.
There was no Poland.
In fact, there was no the Ukraine either.

And Germany was nonexistent and just a bunch of separate kingdoms.

So what’s your point?

 

[DudleySmith]

And Germany was nonexistent and just a bunch of separate kingdoms.

So what’s your point?

Yes. Many don't realize the U.S. is an older country than Germany as well as Italy.