Dresden in 1945

[Rigby5]

Those Poles attacked Germany!

The Poles attacked all of Europe around 1600 and were not defeated until around 1700.
And anyone wanting to start up Poland again was crazy.

 

[Rigby5]

And Germany was nonexistent and just a bunch of separate kingdoms.

So what’s your point?

No, the states that made up Germany were just independent.
Poland did not exist at all as an independent state because no one wanted to risk letting a revival of the evil Old Polish Empire they had just finally defeated around 1700.
And the German states were NOT kingdoms.
First of all, it was known as the Holy Roman Empire, and its states were separate republics.
The governments were voted for democratically.

 

[Weatherman2020]

No, the states that made up Germany were just independent.
Poland did not exist at all as an independent state because no one wanted to risk letting a revival of the evil Old Polish Empire they had just finally defeated around 1700.
And the German states were NOT kingdoms.
First of all, it was known as the Holy Roman Empire, and its states were separate republics.
The governments were voted for democratically.

Germany did not exist until 1871.
The area was a bunch of kingdoms going after each other prior.

 

[Weatherman2020]

No, the states that made up Germany were just independent.
Poland did not exist at all as an independent state because no one wanted to risk letting a revival of the evil Old Polish Empire they had just finally defeated around 1700.
And the German states were NOT kingdoms.
First of all, it was known as the Holy Roman Empire, and its states were separate republics.
The governments were voted for democratically.

Italy should get their land back from Germany.

 

[Mushroom]

The area was a bunch of kingdoms going after each other prior.

It was a mess. Four Kingdoms, six Grand Duchies, seven Principalities, and three Free Cities. And much like Italy during the renaissance, far more likely to attack each other than anybody else.

 

[whitehall]

The strategy was to keep killing civilians and destroying infrastructure until the maniacs surrendered. I'm not making a case for or against but we need to accept that fact.

 

[Rigby5]

Germany did not exist until 1871.
The area was a bunch of kingdoms going after each other prior.

Wrong.
Germany just changed names, and used to called the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.
It was always a collection of separate states that reunified in 1871 under the new name of just German Empire.

{...
The Holy Roman Empire, also known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation after 1512, was a polity in Central and Western Europe, usually headed by the Holy Roman Emperor.[19] It developed in the Early Middle Ages and lasted for almost 1,000 years until its dissolution in 1806 during the Napoleonic Wars.[20].
...}
{...
The unification of Germany was announced on 18 January 1871 in the Hall of Mirrors at the Palace of Versailles in France.

The Princes of most of the German states gathered there to proclaim King Wilhelm I of Prussia as German Emperor during the Franco-Prussian War. This event would have had a major impact on European politics for decades.

It became the German empire dominated by Prussia with a federalist structure.
...}

 

[Rigby5]

Germany did not exist until 1871.
The area was a bunch of kingdoms going after each other prior.

They were not kingdoms, but republics.
It was the Hapsburg monarchs the reunited the republic states.

 

[Rigby5]

The strategy was to keep killing civilians and destroying infrastructure until the maniacs surrendered. I'm not making a case for or against but we need to accept that fact.

Murdering civilians prevents surrender.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Wrong.
Germany just changed names, and used to called the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation.
It was always a collection of separate states that reunified in 1871 under the new name of just German Empire.

{...
The Holy Roman Empire, also known as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation after 1512, was a polity in Central and Western Europe, usually headed by the Holy Roman Emperor.[19] It developed in the Early Middle Ages and lasted for almost 1,000 years until its dissolution in 1806 during the Napoleonic Wars.[20].
...}
{...
The unification of Germany was announced on 18 January 1871 in the Hall of Mirrors at the Palace of Versailles in France.

The Princes of most of the German states gathered there to proclaim King Wilhelm I of Prussia as German Emperor during the Franco-Prussian War. This event would have had a major impact on European politics for decades.

It became the German empire dominated by Prussia with a federalist structure.
...}

A bunch of kingdoms run by nobility and each kingdom running things their own way.

Time for Germany to turn over their lands to Italy.

 

[whitehall]

Murdering civilians prevents surrender.

It's not murder if you win.

 

[AZrailwhale]

London was the first city bombed.

Yes, in WWI by Zepplins. In WWII (sort of) it was Guernica Spain in the Spanish Civil War.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Wrong.
You miss the point entirely.
Which is that all the ships left at Pearl Harbor were from the era of WWI, regardless if they were 5 years later or not, and had no deck armor.
So they could no longer be used on normal fleet operations, where they would be sitting ducks to dive bomber attacks.
They were only slightly used, and that was only for shore bombardment after all enemy aircraft had been secured from the area.

The only real battleships we used in WWII were the Iowa class.
{...
The Iowa class was a class of six fast battleships ordered by the United States Navy in 1939 and 1940. They were initially intended to intercept fast capital ships such as the Japanese Kongō class while also being capable of serving in a traditional battle line alongside slower battleships and act as its "fast wing".[3][4] The Iowa class was designed to meet the Second London Naval Treaty's "escalator clause" limit of 45,000-long-ton (45,700 t) standard displacement. Beginning in August 1942, four vessels, Iowa, New Jersey, Missouri, and Wisconsin, were completed;
...}

Your ignorance is unbelievable. All of the USN battleships had deck armor. That's why the Japanese needed to develop special 1,600-pound bombs converted from sixteen-inch battleship shells to penetrate it. The only reason Arizona blew up was that she had expired propellant powder stacked in her companionways to make way for fresh powder due to be loaded into her magazines the next week. Arizona and Pennsylvania had three inches of deck armor, Nevada and Oklahoma had five-inch deck armor, Tennessee, California, Maryland and West Virginia all had three-and-a-half-inch deck armor. In addition, all had additional armor over vulnerable things like engine rooms, magazines and boiler rooms.

 

[Mushroom]

The strategy was to keep killing civilians and destroying infrastructure until the maniacs surrendered.

Of course, it must also be remembered that they were the ones that started the indiscriminate bombing of civilian centers. People tend to forget (or pretend it never happened) that Germany is the one that started the large scale bombing on civilian population centers. Oh, and of using incendiary weapons on such cities.

As the saying goes, "what goes around comes around".

 

[Blackrook]

Starting a war with the most powerful nation on Earth is a mistake. The Germans and Japanese paid for it.

 

[Mushroom]

Your ignorance is unbelievable. All of the USN battleships had deck armor. That's why the Japanese needed to develop special 1,600-pound bombs converted from sixteen-inch battleship shells to penetrate it. Arizona and Pennsylvania had three inches of deck armor, Nevada and Oklahoma had five-inch deck armor, Tennessee, California, Maryland and West Virginia all had three-and-a-half-inch deck armor. In addition, all had additional armor over vulnerable things like engine rooms, magazines and boiler rooms.

And each of those older ship was of the Dreadnaught or Super Dreadnought classification. Which means their armor was all designed to largely defeat the guns in use at the time. Which for each of them was a 14" main gun. However, advances in many things like nautical engineering, guns and gun tables, and boilers led the US to resume battleship construction with entirely new concepts and designs. First the Colorado class Super-Dreadnaughts with 16" guns, Then the first true modern battleships, the North Carolina Class with their 16" guns and designated as "Fast Battleships".

But what I think I find most amazing is the complete denial. Screaming that there were old battleships there, even though there really were no new battleships made for almost two decades because of treaties. I wonder if he even knows what he purposes of the ships were. For example, why we have so many classifications of ships in the first place, and their roles in the fleet.

For example, the US was still building new ships. Like the seven New Orleans class Cruisers, Which largely are the ships that took the place of Battleships. And included the USS Astoria (CA-34), which in 1941 had a major retrofit and included things like increased anti-aircraft weapons mounted and a new air-search RADAR. She was part of the escort for the USS Lexington on her mission to Midway. A sister ship USS Minneapolis (CA-36) was actually at sea just off the coast of Hawaii doing gunnery practice. The USS New Orleans (CA-32) was tied up at Pearl Harbor, but as it was a Cruiser and not a Battleship it had minimal damage as it was not a target.

USS Portland (CA-33) had also been recently upgraded, and was with the USS Lexington also. Another ship of her class was the USS Indianapolis (CA-35), which was doing gunnery drills at Johnson Atoll.

But the age of a ship really does not mean all that much, if somebody who knows about such matters will easily attest. One of the most feared ships of the US Navy in the Pacific by the Japanese were actually interwar period ships of the Brooklyn class Light Cruisers. The ships were actually lightly armed and armored, with only fifteen 6" guns. But they were fast, highly maneuverable, and their guns able to be fired very quickly. The Japanese called them "Machine Gun Cruisers", as they seemed to be able to fire an almost insane amount of ordinance and could even take out much more heavily armed and armored cruisers. They were even able to hold their own against Japanese battleships.



And the only reason that Japan had newer and larger battleships in the yards (not in service) is because in 1936 she renounced the Washington and London Naval Treaties. They already had entirely new class of Battleships designed which was an upgrade to older ships to make them battleships. The US had no newer ships ready, and had to take over a year to design and start construction on their own battleships. But the fact is, that at the start of the war the US did have more Battleships than Japan did, and mostly of newer designs. Most of those that Japan had were the Kongo class, which was an upgraded WWI era Battlecruiser. When the war broke out, their battleship count was 10, every single one of them built between 1913 and 1921.

They did have three under construction when the war broke out, but we know how useless the Yamato class ended up being when they were finally put into service. But consider, that even though Japan renounced the treaty first, they did not actually get any new battleships other than those three after 1921. Their largest class of battleships were the 4 converted Kongo class cruisers where they got upgraded armor and new engines. But retained their eight 14" guns.

 

[AZrailwhale]

And each of those older ship was of the Dreadnaught or Super Dreadnought classification. Which means their armor was all designed to largely defeat the guns in use at the time. Which for each of them was a 14" main gun. However, advances in many things like nautical engineering, guns and gun tables, and boilers led the US to resume battleship construction with entirely new concepts and designs. First the Colorado class Super-Dreadnaughts with 16" guns, Then the first true modern battleships, the North Carolina Class with their 16" guns and designated as "Fast Battleships".

But what I think I find most amazing is the complete denial. Screaming that there were old battleships there, even though there really were no new battleships made for almost two decades because of treaties. I wonder if he even knows what he purposes of the ships were. For example, why we have so many classifications of ships in the first place, and their roles in the fleet.

For example, the US was still building new ships. Like the seven New Orleans class Cruisers, Which largely are the ships that took the place of Battleships. And included the USS Astoria (CA-34), which in 1941 had a major retrofit and included things like increased anti-aircraft weapons mounted and a new air-search RADAR. She was part of the escort for the USS Lexington on her mission to Midway. A sister ship USS Minneapolis (CA-36) was actually at sea just off the coast of Hawaii doing gunnery practice. The USS New Orleans (CA-32) was tied up at Pearl Harbor, but as it was a Cruiser and not a Battleship it had minimal damage as it was not a target.

USS Portland (CA-33) had also been recently upgraded, and was with the USS Lexington also. Another ship of her class was the USS Indianapolis (CA-35), which was doing gunnery drills at Johnson Atoll.

But the age of a ship really does not mean all that much, if somebody who knows about such matters will easily attest. One of the most feared ships of the US Navy in the Pacific by the Japanese were actually interwar period ships of the Brooklyn class Light Cruisers. The ships were actually lightly armed and armored, with only fifteen 6" guns. But they were fast, highly maneuverable, and their guns able to be fired very quickly. The Japanese called them "Machine Gun Cruisers", as they seemed to be able to fire an almost insane amount of ordinance and could even take out much more heavily armed and armored cruisers. They were even able to hold their own against Japanese battleships.



And the only reason that Japan had newer and larger battleships in the yards (not in service) is because in 1936 she renounced the Washington and London Naval Treaties. They already had entirely new class of Battleships designed which was an upgrade to older ships to make them battleships. The US had no newer ships ready, and had to take over a year to design and start construction on their own battleships. But the fact is, that at the start of the war the US did have more Battleships than Japan did, and mostly of newer designs. Most of those that Japan had were the Kongo class, which was an upgraded WWI era Battlecruiser. When the war broke out, their battleship count was 10, every single one of them built between 1913 and 1921.

They did have three under construction when the war broke out, but we know how useless the Yamato class ended up being when they were finally put into service. But consider, that even though Japan renounced the treaty first, they did not actually get any new battleships other than those three after 1921. Their largest class of battleships were the 4 converted Kongo class cruisers where they got upgraded armor and new engines. But retained their eight 14" guns.

The North Carolinas were under-armored. They were intended to carry fourteen inch guns so they were armored to that standard.

 

[Seymour Flops]

i have not read that book yet …. but i have read about it.
it must be a great book!

Yes, it is a very great book. The movie is great also. It was my introduction to Kurt Vonnegut.

I remember seeing it as a late night TV movie in high school. I was literally on the edge of my seat waiting to see what would happen next.

 

[Mushroom]

Starting a war with the most powerful nation on Earth is a mistake.

Here is the irony, the US was actually not all that "powerful" at the time. But where it really came through was that the nation was already an industrial powerhouse. That is something that Admiral Yamamoto was all too well aware of, and why he urged his country repeatedly to not go to war with the US. That even though on paper at the start of the war their militaries were roughly equal, there was no way that Japan could ever meet the sheer industrial output of the US and it would be able to put to sea five ships for ever one lost.

Just consider this. At the start of the war, in the Pacific Japan had 12 aircraft carriers and 7 under construction. The US had 7 aircraft carriers with 5 under construction. And at the end of the war, Japan had increased that number by a single carrier, converted from an under-construction battleship. The US however had increased their number of fleet carriers by a staggering 22 ships. And in addition, the US built over 100 escort carriers.

No, the US was actually not all that "powerful", they were pretty much equal to Japan. But the difference is that their industrial might allowed them to quickly surpass all three of the Axis powers combined, because even all three of them had nowhere near the sheer industrial output of the US.

 

[whitehall]

Of course, it must also be remembered that they were the ones that started the indiscriminate bombing of civilian centers. People tend to forget (or pretend it never happened) that Germany is the one that started the large scale bombing on civilian population centers. Oh, and of using incendiary weapons on such cities.

As the saying goes, "what goes around comes around".

Yeah that's right. You can almost laugh at propaganda movies of the time that illustrated the intent of Allies to destroy the





The movie "The Dam Busters" was a big propaganda hit at the time. It described the efforts of Allied scientists to destroy a German dam regardless of collateral damage of every living thing below the dam. The plan was to develop a bouncing ball that ignited at the end of the dam. It was a big hit with the scientists and the public at the time.





























german