Dresden in 1945

[Mushroom]

The North Carolinas were under-armored. They were intended to carry fourteen inch guns so they were armored to that standard.

True, but they were also the first of the "Fast Battleships", and were intended to operate primarily as escorts for the carriers.

The speed however had to come as a trade-off, because if they had upgraded them any more they could not have accomplished their primary mission of escorting carriers. This however was taken into consideration in the South Dakota class, and most consider perfected in the Iowa class. As the US carriers were all essentially modified cruisers (hence the C in CV), they were fast. So fast, that not a single Battleship prior to the North Carolina class could even keep up with them. Every single carrier the US had in service at the start of the war was significantly faster than any Battleship prior to the North Carolina class.

And that is something I think always fascinated me about naval designations. Most people are aware that the US carriers are designated as C, as in CV, CVN, CVE, and the like. But most are completely unaware that is because of they literally are a subclass of cruisers. The V was appended as they were modified to carry heavier than air craft as that was the Navy designation for them. And if for some reason we had ever actually built an aircraft carrier to carry blimps and zeppelins, it would have been designated as a CZ (Z is the Navy code for lighter than air craft).

 

[Mushroom]

Yeah that's right. You can almost laugh at propaganda movies of the time that illustrated the intent of Allies to destroy the

The movie "The Dam Busters" was a big propaganda hit at the time. It described the efforts of Allied scientists to destroy a German dam regardless of collateral damage of every living thing below the dam. The plan was to develop a bouncing ball that ignited at the end of the dam. It was a big hit with the scientists and the public at the time.

german

Wow, I have absolutely no idea what went wrong with that post, it makes little sense.

However, what "collateral damage"? There were around 600 Germans killed in the flooding, and about 1,000 Soviets that had been forced into slave labor killed.

Over 40 times that number were killed by the Germans in the London Blitz alone.

So your point is what, exactly?

 

[Grau]

So you are saying that factories that build aircraft, tanks, artillery, anti-aircraft guns, and optics are of no military value? In addition to the fuel depots, oil refineries, and all of the others?

Saying that is as retarded as trying to say that Omaha, Nebraska had no military value.

It is commonly known that Dresden had no factories, refineries or industry and its destruction contributed absolutely nothing to the war effort.

While there are no written orders from Hitler for the destruction of Germany's Jews (1), there are orders from Churchill to "roast" German refugees. (2)

In February of 1945, Dresden was swarming with German refugees from the East and the war was virtually over.

Therefore, the deliberate mass murder of nearly 1 million civilians was pure genocidal bloodlust and just another unpunished Allied war crime for which the culprits should have been hung.




(1). “To the present day a written order by Hitler regarding the destruction of the European Jewish community has not been found, and, in all probability, this order was never given.”
- Walter Laqueur, Was niemand wissen wollte: Die Unterdruckung der Nachrichten uber Hitlers Endlösung (What Nobody Wanted to Know: The Suppression of News About Hitler’s “Final Solution”), (Berlin-Vienna, 1981), p.190



(2). “I do not want suggestions as to how we can disable the economy and the machinery of war, what I want are suggestions as to how we can roast the German refugees on their escape from Breslau.”
Prime Minister Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill: the Imperial Monster

Fear-Monger, War Criminal, Racist

www.counterpunch.org

 

[Grau]

The problem is that the question is about the US entering the war in Europe.

You know, it is called a "World War" for a reason. And by 1939, over half of the country was already expecting to be in a war in the near future with Japan.

You are correct in that they did not want to participate in a war in Europe. But that is also a seriously loaded question, and you are specifically framing it in a slanted way. However, the American public were also overwhelming in their support of sending war goods to England and other Allied Nations, even though it was know that might ultimately drag the US into the war.

But the US was not so split when it came to Japan. With in 1939 most knowing that war was going to happen, and that it would likely be a long war. But ultimately, the only real reason that the US was in Europe was because the retarded leaders of Germany and Italy declared war against the US. Der Wall Painter and Il Lamp Ornament would have saved a lot of people grief if they had just offed themselves in 1941, because ultimately those decisions cost them the war.

You raise several topics I'd like to discuss but lack the time at the moment.

Many historians consider WW 1 and WW 2 to be just one war because the Treaty of Versailles guaranteed continued hostilities.

It is also overly simplistic to blame WW 2 on just one side.

Finally, Hitler's war was against Communism and in May of 1941 he sent Hess to Britain with an offer to return all conquered land in the West in order to fight just Communism.

Churchill, however, preferred to destroy Germany, eliminate an industrial competitor and seize German colonies.

Churchill's cunning, British intelligence with fake maps and FDR's anti German advisers were enough to push America into another gratuitous war in Europe.

 

[Zebra]

You raise several topics I'd like to discuss but lack the time at the moment.

Many historians consider WW 1 and WW 2 to be just one war because the Treaty of Versailles guaranteed continued hostilities.

It is also overly simplistic to blame WW 2 on just one side.

Finally, Hitler's war was against Communism and in May of 1941 he sent Hess to Britain with an offer to return all conquered land in the West in order to fight just Communism.

Churchill, however, preferred to destroy Germany, eliminate an industrial competitor and seize German colonies.

Churchill's cunning, British intelligence with fake maps and FDR's anti German advisers were enough to push America into another gratuitous war in Europe.

interesting facts!

 

[Zebra]

you may look up anne helm, who praised Harris the Bomber!

 

[Zebra]

Italy should get their land back from Germany.
View attachment 902275

a good map!

 

[Zebra]

Anne Helm is still boss of the leftwing party in Berlin

 

[Grau]

interesting facts!

Thank you,

I certainly don't support any form of totalitarianism and try to be objective while remembering George Orwell's observation:

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."

.As always, I'm happy to provide sources to confirm what I've written.

Enjoy your day.

 

[Zebra]

Thank you,

I certainly don't support any form of totalitarianism and try to be objective while remembering George Orwell's observation:

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."

.As always, I'm happy to provide sources to confirm what I've written.

Enjoy your day.

thank you - and same to you!

 

[Zebra]

1984!

 

[Stryder50]

Thank you,

I certainly don't support any form of totalitarianism and try to be objective while remembering George Orwell's observation:

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."

.As always, I'm happy to provide sources to confirm what I've written.

Enjoy your day.

Please do present those sources of your propaganda - pravda.

 

[Grau]

Please do present those sources of your propaganda - pravda.

Why should I waste time on snarky Hasbara trolls whose sole source is their Hasbara Handbook?

 

[AZrailwhale]

It is commonly known that Dresden had no factories, refineries or industry and its destruction contributed absolutely nothing to the war effort.

While there are no written orders from Hitler for the destruction of Germany's Jews (1), there are orders from Churchill to "roast" German refugees. (2)

In February of 1945, Dresden was swarming with German refugees from the East and the war was virtually over.

Therefore, the deliberate mass murder of nearly 1 million civilians was pure genocidal bloodlust and just another unpunished Allied war crime for which the culprits should have been hung.




(1). “To the present day a written order by Hitler regarding the destruction of the European Jewish community has not been found, and, in all probability, this order was never given.”
- Walter Laqueur, Was niemand wissen wollte: Die Unterdruckung der Nachrichten uber Hitlers Endlösung (What Nobody Wanted to Know: The Suppression of News About Hitler’s “Final Solution”), (Berlin-Vienna, 1981), p.190



(2). “I do not want suggestions as to how we can disable the economy and the machinery of war, what I want are suggestions as to how we can roast the German refugees on their escape from Breslau.”
Prime Minister Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill: the Imperial Monster

Fear-Monger, War Criminal, Racist

www.counterpunch.org

If Dresden had no factories, it is the first city in history to have that status. Dresden had factories and was a major trans-shipment point for supplies and troops bound for the Russian Front.

 

[Mushroom]

It is commonly known that Dresden had no factories, refineries or industry

That is outright wrong.. It was home to Lehmann-Maschinen, a leading manufacturer of anti-aircraft guns like the Flak 35, and artillery like the 85mm cannon. It was also the location of the main manufacturing plant of Zeiss Ikon, the largest optical company in the country. Oh, and the main factory of Chemische Fabrik Goye, a chemical company that made most of the ammonium nitrate and other explosives used in the war.

Their railyards as I already stated were the largest in Germany. Their main marshalling yard covered over 5 square miles.

You know, you need to do a hell of a lot more than simply stating "you are wrong", with absolutely nothing to back that claim up.

 

[Mushroom]

Many historians consider WW 1 and WW 2 to be just one war because the Treaty of Versailles guaranteed continued hostilities.

No, only idiots that want to revise history, like you do.

Because most real historians are more than aware that Germany itself really did not "start" the war, they just made it a World War. Most consider it actually starting in 1935 with the Abyssinian War, which was then expanded in 1937 with the Second Sino-Japanese War.

All Germany did was become the third Axis power to start a war of aggression and expansion on a third continent, making it a "world war".

But as you also appear to be a Holocaust Denier, I now know exactly how seriously to take anything you write. In other words, not at all seriously and almost entirely inconsequential and incorrect.

 

[Mushroom]

Why should I waste time on snarky Hasbara trolls whose sole source is their Hasbara Handbook?

 

[Mushroom]

If Dresden had no factories, it is the first city in history to have that status. Dresden had factories and was a major trans-shipment point for supplies and troops bound for the Russian Front.

To be honest, I have now given up. With the most recent posts descending into pure anti-Semitism, I see no reason to even continue. You can't even attempt to reason with unreasonable people.

 

[Stryder50]

Please do present those sources of your propaganda - pravda.

Why should I waste time on snarky Hasbara trolls whose sole source is their Hasbara Handbook?

For a start, I've presented more factual material backed by sources/links, than you and most others here.

Second, there are more readers than posters and it is proper respect and SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) to give them consideration and realize that others beside "snarky Hasbara(?) trolls" have an interest and need to know fact from fabulous fiction and fable which you appear to be peddling (along with a few others active in this thread, like "Rigby5" for example).

Third, you said in post #129 above: "As always, I'm happy to provide sources to confirm what I've written.". So where is such?
Or is this another lie from you, komrade?

 

[Grau]

If Dresden had no factories, it is the first city in history to have that status. Dresden had factories and was a major trans-shipment point for supplies and troops bound for the Russian Front.

Of course Dresden must have had some industry but it was not militarily significant.

You're not considering the time of this blatant war crime.

There were no "troops bound for the Russian Front" in February of 1945 and most of Germany was rubble at that time.

If the firebombing of Dresden was done for military considerations, why did Churchill admit that it was about "roasting refugees"?

“I do not want suggestions as to how we can disable the economy and the machinery of war, what I want are suggestions as to how we can roast the German refugees on their escape from Breslau.”
Prime Minister Winston Churchill