Dresden in 1945

[Stryder50]

Says the people who want to genocide European people.

What!
That's a pile of bullshit!

People like you who say the USA should never have been involved in World War Two are the ones who support the genocide of the Nazi concentration/death camps and slaughter of innocents by Imperial Japan.

I can understand your desperation for CYA, but you are also displaying gross ignorance and lack of qualms about genocide of innocent peoples, European, Asian, and in-between!

 

[Rigby5]

The city got fire bombed.

Also, the allies did some serious fire bombing of large populated swaths of Japan.

War is horror. But nowadays, when an enemy hides intentionally in a civilian populated area, many folks seem content to accuse the nation which is defending itself of “war crimes” and committing a “holocaust” for waging war in a slightly related manner.

Liberals have no honor.

The problem is that Dresden had no military targets, so then was never attacked before, and all the defenses were removed.
The Dresden attack was not just "fire bombing".
It was an intentional attempt to test a method of destroying whole cities, with a fire storm.
The idea was to come through first with conventional explosives, to cave in the roofs of the buildings.
Then come through with a wave of bombers carrying the newly invented napalm.
The goal was to turn each bombed out building into a chimney.
Which then collectively would produce enough air rising in order to create 100 mph tornado winds.

And your hinting at Hamas that "hides intentionally in a civilian population" is totally and completely false.
The reality is that the Palestinians never were allowed any arms, by the Ottoman Empire or the British, so they ARE civilians.
Which means they are NOT "hiding" as soldiers among civilians but ARE civilians and have a right to hide.
That is because it was illegal for Israel to ever do any of the atrocities they are guilty of, and civilians have a right to any sort of partisan retribution they can come up with.
Go back and read what actually happened.
Like Menachim Begin blowing up the King David hotel in order to murder the British peacekeepers in 1946.
Then he gunned down Folke Bernadotte, the UN moderator.
All so no one could stop him from massacring hundreds of native villages like Deir Yassin.
And to read about Deir Yassin, you can find letters from Albert Einstein who witnessed the firing squads murdering women and children.
Albert Einstein Letter to The New York Times. December 4, 1948 New Palestine Party. Visit of Menachen Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed : Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook, et.al. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
{...
The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants (240 men, women, and children) and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
...}

Needless to say, Albert Einstein turned down the offer of Presidency of Israel.

 

[Stryder50]

One aspect of Lend-Lease was that given to China which included creation of the American Volunteer Group = Flying Tigers. An effort to provide China with quality aircraft, pilots, and ground support crews to thwart Japanese aviation attacks upon (Nationalist)China. Interestingly, it was with Lend-Lease funding that China turned around to "pay" for the AVG(s).
....
EXCERPTS:
...
The American Volunteer Groups were volunteer air units organized by the United States government to aid the Nationalist government of China against Japan in the Second Sino-Japanese War. The only unit to actually see combat was the 1st AVG, popularly known as the Flying Tigers.

To aid the Nationalist government of China and to put pressure on Japan, President Franklin Roosevelt in April 1941 authorized the creation of a clandestine "Special Air Unit" consisting of three combat groups equipped with American aircraft and staffed by aviators and technicians to be recruited from the U.S. Army, Navy and Marine Corps for service in China. The program was fleshed out in the winter of 1940–1941 by Claire Lee Chennault, then an air advisor to the Chinese Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-shek, and Lauchlin Currie, a young economist in the Roosevelt White House. They envisioned a small air corps of 500 combat aircraft, although in the end, the number was reduced to 200 fighters and 66 light bombers.[1]
...

1st AVG (Flying Tigers)​

Main article: Flying Tigers

The 1st American Volunteer Group were recruited starting on 15 April 1941, when an unpublished executive order was signed by President Roosevelt.[2] One hundred Curtiss P-40Bs were obtained from Curtiss-Wright, by convincing the British Government to take a later more advanced batch of P-40s in exchange.[2] The group assembled at RAF Mingaladon in Burma by November 1941 for training, where it was organized into three squadrons and established a headquarters.[3] After the Japanese invasion of Burma, the AVG fought alongside the Royal Air Force in defense of Rangoon[2] Under Chennault's command, the Flying Tigers became famous in the defense of Burma and China.[2] It was disbanded and replaced by the United States Army Air Forces' (AAF) 23rd Fighter Group in July 1942, with only five of its pilots choosing to continue with the AAF.[4]

...

2nd AVG​

The Lockheed Hudson (seen in RAF use) was an American-built light bomber and coastal reconnaissance aircraft
Douglas A-20 Havoc of the United States Army Air Forces
In the fall of 1941, the 2nd American Volunteer Group was equipped with 33 Lockheed Hudson (A-28) and 33 Douglas DB-7 (A-20) bombers originally built for Britain but acquired by the U.S. Army as part of the Lend-Lease program passed earlier in the year. The Central Aircraft Manufacturing Company, fronting for the Chinese and American governments, recruited 82 pilots and 359 ground crew from the U.S. Army in the fall of 1941 and an undetermined number, including one pilot, sailed for Asia aboard Bloemfontein of the Java-Pacific line. Other pilots reported to San Francisco and were scheduled to depart aboard the Lockheed Hudsons on 10 December. The Douglas DB-7s were to have gone by freighter to Africa, to be assembled and ferried to China but the 7 December 1941, attack on Pearl Harbor caused the program to be aborted. The vessels at sea were diverted to Australia, the aircraft were taken back into American service and most of the personnel rejoined the military, either in Australia or in the U.S.
...

3rd AVG​

The 3rd AVG was to have been a fighter group like the 1st. Because the 2nd AVG had been recruited from the U.S. Army, recruiting for the 3rd was to have been limited to the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, starting in the early months of 1942. These plans too were abandoned as a result of the U.S. entry into World War II.
...

American Volunteer Group - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interesting and not well know fact is that the 2nd AVG - Bombardment was intended to attack Japanese cities, especially using incendiary bombs!

 

[Stryder50]

The problem is that Dresden had no military targets, so then was never attacked before, and all the defenses were removed.
The Dresden attack was not just "fire bombing".
It was an intentional attempt to test a method of destroying whole cities, with a fire storm.
The idea was to come through first with conventional explosives, to cave in the roofs of the buildings.
Then come through with a wave of bombers carrying the newly invented napalm.
The goal was to turn each bombed out building into a chimney.
Which then collectively would produce enough air rising in order to create 100 mph tornado winds.

And your hinting at Hamas that "hides intentionally in a civilian population" is totally and completely false.
The reality is that the Palestinians never were allowed any arms, by the Ottoman Empire or the British, so they ARE civilians.
Which means they are NOT "hiding" as soldiers among civilians but ARE civilians and have a right to hide.
That is because it was illegal for Israel to ever do any of the atrocities they are guilty of, and civilians have a right to any sort of partisan retribution they can come up with.
Go back and read what actually happened.
Like Menachim Begin blowing up the King David hotel in order to murder the British peacekeepers in 1946.
Then he gunned down Folke Bernadotte, the UN moderator.
All so no one could stop him from massacring hundreds of native villages like Deir Yassin.
And to read about Deir Yassin, you can find letters from Albert Einstein who witnessed the firing squads murdering women and children.
Albert Einstein Letter to The New York Times. December 4, 1948 New Palestine Party. Visit of Menachen Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed : Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook, et.al. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
{...
The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants (240 men, women, and children) and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
...}

Needless to say, Albert Einstein turned down the offer of Presidency of Israel.

We'll deal with your out of thread context: Israeli ~ Hamas(etc.) portion at another time.

As for your first paragraph, check the table above in post #12(which shows how often, especially before, and after, the "firestorm" event Dresden was attacked), and content of #10, along with the links. USA was also starting to use "fire bombing" against Japan at the time.

BTW: ...The bombing of Hamburg in July 1943 generated the first large firestorm and killed more than 30,000 civilians. ...

Why Was Dresden So Heavily Bombed? | HISTORY

By the end of the three-day Allied bombing attack of World War II, the German city had been leveled and tens of thousands were dead.

www.history.com

Dresden wasn't the first city attacked with incendiaries nor was the intent to start a firestorm. That occurred as result of a combination of factors, some which were flukes at the time.

Also, with factories and railroad lines and marshaling yards, Dresden had as much military value as many other German cities being attacked at the time.

 

[Rigby5]

PART ONE:

OMG!
Sorry, no offense intended, but it never ceases to amaze me the depth of ignorance (and stupidity?) of many regards what is recent history.

May be no fault of your own to some degree since the last few decades have seen a decline in teaching history in the USA education system and you appear an example of the impact of that.

The USA had been involved in "WW2" long before the Pearl Harbor attack. FDR was aware of the majority of Americans aversion to getting embroiled in another "European War", but the travesties of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy in Europe were being matched in East Asia by Imperial Japan. Not to mention the aggression(attacks and conquest) by the Soviet Union against the Baltic Nations and Finland during this time. From Sept.1939 to June 1941 it looked as if three large and major tyrannical dictatorships (Germany, Japan, Russia) were out to carve up the world between them and enslave most of the developed and developing nations along the way. Not to mention Fascist Italy was a fourth member of the gang grabbing the scraps left by the Big Three.

Also, by the time of Sept. 1939 it was known by many in the world that Nazi Germany was placing Jews and other "undesirables" in concentration camps and substantial and believable "rumors" were about regarding the death camp exterminations.

By the Fall of 1940 England was alone in Europe as an opposition to Nazi/Fascist conquest/enslavement and similar for China in Asia opposing Imperial Japan's war and territory grabs from China. Meanwhile, when most of the world was distracted by Germany, Japan, and Italy, Russian invaded and occupied the Baltic States and started a war against Finland.

Occupation of the Baltic states - Wikipedia​

While a majority in the USA wanted to stay out of these wars, anyone with economic knowledge would know that with the USA involved in foreign~global trade for resources and markets, impacts would start to be felt and grow in negative effects.

By early 1941 the situation with regard to Britain and China ability to resist the Axis attacks was rapidly diminishing and and becoming rather desperate. Neither had any money left for the "cash and carry" policy of the USA to purchase weapons, food, and supplies and looked to be about to collapse and be conquered, knocked out of the War.

Then came the inspiration of Lend-Lease. ...

What you wrote made no sense, because Germany was correctly reacting to the atrocities of abuse from WWI, where the Allies started it, were the bad guys, illegally forced Germany to surrender by starving millions of civilians to death, and stole half of Germany.

As for Japan, the US forced them into the war by trying to illegally cut off steel, coal, oil, and food from Asian producers.

And strangest of all is your inclusion of Russia, who was our main ally against Germany in WWII.
Russia did grab half of Poland, but Poland was not supposed to exist and was wrongly created by the Treaty of Versailles.

 

[Rigby5]

We'll deal with your out of thread context: Israeli ~ Hamas(etc.) portion at another time.

As for your first paragraph, check the table above in post #12(which shows how often, especially before, and after, the "firestorm" event Dresden was attacked), and content of #10, along with the links. USA was also starting to use "fire bombing" against Japan at the time.

BTW: ...The bombing of Hamburg in July 1943 generated the first large firestorm and killed more than 30,000 civilians. ...

Why Was Dresden So Heavily Bombed? | HISTORY

By the end of the three-day Allied bombing attack of World War II, the German city had been leveled and tens of thousands were dead.

www.history.com

Dresden wasn't the first city attacked with incendiaries nor was the intent to start a firestorm. That occurred as result of a combination of factors, some which were flukes at the time.

Also, with factories and railroad lines and marshaling yards, Dresden had as much military value as many other German cities being attacked at the time.

Wrong.
It was 50 years ago so I am not going to be able to even quote the author, but Dresden was entirely an illegal attempt to experiment with fire storm techniques to destroy whole cities.
The fact they also committed this crime elsewhere, is irrelevant.
The fact it had civilian railyards and factories, does not make it a legitimate target.
It made no war materials.
It was illegal to attack.

 

[Zebra]

History shows that majorities are seldom correct or right in what should occur. Often make things worse once reality needs to be dealt with.

true!

 

[Zebra]

What you wrote made no sense, because Germany was correctly reacting to the atrocities of abuse from WWI, where the Allies started it, were the bad guys, illegally forced Germany to surrender by starving millions of civilians to death, and stole half of Germany.

As for Japan, the US forced them into the war by trying to illegally cut off steel, coal, oil, and food from Asian producers.

And strangest of all is your inclusion of Russia, who was our main ally against Germany in WWII.
Russia did grab half of Poland, but Poland was not supposed to exist and was wrongly created by the Treaty of Versailles.

true!

 

[Zebra]

Wrong.
It was 50 years ago so I am not going to be able to even quote the author, but Dresden was entirely an illegal attempt to experiment with fire storm techniques to destroy whole cities.
The fact they also committed this crime elsewhere, is irrelevant.
The fact it had civilian railyards and factories, does not make it a legitimate target.
It made no war materials.
It was illegal to attack.

very true!

 

[Zebra]

80 views now ….

 

[Stryder50]

Horrible. USA had no business being in WW2. We knew about Pearl Harbor in advance. FDR had ships moved from San Diego to Pearl Harbor prior hoping for maximum damage and death as justification for entering the war. Nothing more than bailing out the Rothchilds and the American Federal Reserve scum. Virtually all of Latin America was neutral (as was the USA) or pro Germany.
British Intelligence had 2 floors of free office space, courtesy of Rockefeller, in NYC to engage in pro war propaganda.

PART 3:

"We knew about Pearl Harbor in advance."

No we did not!
We(USA) expected aggressive actions by Japan, and had broken some of their codes, but had no clear indications of what would happen (when, where, how, etc.) until the actual time of the attacks. Japan's naval forces had left Homeland waters in secret and maintained radio silence until the attack. Hence the USA had no idea where they were or what their specific intentions/targets were.

"FDR had ships moved from San Diego to Pearl Harbor prior hoping for maximum damage and death as justification for entering the war."

NOPE!
Again, more gross ignorance or blatant disinformation.

The Pacific Fleet had main base moved from San Diego to Pearl Harbor in order to be closer to respond to growing aggression of Japan in East Asia. Especially should such shift towards the Philippines which is where USA military strategic thinking expected opening attacks by Japan to occur.

Given the shortage of USN training in battle damage procedures, had the Battleship Fleet been out of harbor and at sea when attacked the damage in sinkage and deaths would have been far greater by several times. As it was, only one of the eight battleships in harbor was permanently lost/destroyed (Arizona), the other seven all eventually raised/repaired and would see service before war's end. Also casualties of personnel were close to hospitals where they could be treated rather than lost at sea. Ironically, the best thing that could have happened was to be attacked in a shallow harbor where the ships would not be permanently lost in very deep waters.

Due to the Neutrality Act, the USN was providing naval escort in the Western Atlantic to shipping/convoys headed to England prior to Dec. 1941 and some USN ships had been attacked and sunk* by German U-boats providing "cause belie" for the USA to enter the war against Germany.

USS Reuben James (DD-245)​

...

World War II​

Main article: Battle of the Atlantic

At the beginning of World War II in Europe in September 1939, she was assigned to the Neutrality Patrol, which guarded the Atlantic and the Caribbean approaches to the American coast. In March 1941, Reuben James joined the force established to escort convoys sailing to Great Britain. The force escorted convoys as far as Iceland after which the convoys became the responsibility of British escorts. The force was based at Hvalfjordur, Iceland, and commanded by Lieutenant Commander Heywood Lane Edwards, the commander of the USS Reuben James.[1]

On 23 October she sailed from Naval Station Argentia, Newfoundland, with four other destroyers, escorting eastbound Convoy HX 156.[2]

Sinking​

At dawn on 31 October 1941, she was torpedoed near Iceland[3] by German submarine U-552 commanded by Kapitänleutnant Erich Topp. Reuben James had positioned herself between an ammunition ship in the convoy and the known position of a German "wolfpack," a group of submarines poised to attack the convoy. The destroyer was not flying the ensign of the United States and was in the process of dropping depth charges on another U-boat when she was engaged.[4] Reuben James was hit forward by a torpedo meant for a merchant ship and her entire bow was blown off when a magazine exploded. The bow sank immediately. The aft section floated for five minutes before going down. Of a crew of seven officers and 136 enlisted men, plus one enlisted passenger, 100 were killed. That left only 44 enlisted men and no officers who survived the attack.[1][3]
....

USS Reuben James (DD-245) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.......
The rest of your post is inconsequential gibberish.

 

[odanny]

The city got fire bombed.

Also, the allies did some serious fire bombing of large populated swaths of Japan.

War is horror. But nowadays, when an enemy hides intentionally in a civilian populated area, many folks seem content to accuse the nation which is defending itself of “war crimes” and committing a “holocaust” for waging war in a slightly related manner.

Liberals have no honor.

What an idiotic comment.

Now that I have got that out of the way...

Dresden held no military value, it was a purely punitive bombing to destroy all those majestic buildings and architecture.

Bomber Harris was behind it.

 

[Mushroom]

started to shrink in the two plus years between Sept. 1939 and Dec. 1941.

It was changing even before that, after the Rape of Nanking. At that time, China was a US Ally and there were increasing worries about the Philippines which was a US Commonwealth. Most already knew by that time that Japan would likely not stop their expansion, so it was never a question of if a war would start, but when.

I often shake my head as many of the posters in here, as they post things that are almost entirely made up in their own minds and have no consideration of the world situation at the time. But the US never really had any interest to fight in Europe, even before the war broke out we were almost entirely watching Japan. If Germany and Italy had never declared war against the US, the US might never have gotten involved in the European theater.

 

[Mushroom]

The Pacific Fleet had main base moved from San Diego to Pearl Harbor in order to be closer to respond to growing aggression of Japan in East Asia. Especially should such shift towards the Philippines which is where USA military strategic thinking expected opening attacks by Japan to occur.

And it was attacked several hours later.

One of the main purposes of striking Pearl Harbor was because Japan knew what the response of the US would be. And they were correct in that, as it was all laid out in War Plan Orange.

The Pacific Fleet would react to an attack on the Philippines by setting sail immediately as a relief force. The Battleships to try and attack any troop ships and targets they find, while the carriers went into ferry modes (which is what they were already doing at that time). Leaving and steaming as fast as they could to the Philippines, unloading almost all of their aircraft to defend the island, then returning to the US to get more.

We actually had a rather elaborate plan in place for when the war broke out. And it was correct, in that the main goal of Japan was capturing the Philippines. However, with the loss of the Battleships, the US had a severe lack in capability to both take hostile beaches as well as defending the rest of their fleet. Yes, carriers did prove their worth, but it also showed that carrier warfare is very wasteful in manpower. Midway was a great victory, but also a horrible loss of highly skilled and trained aviators. Our losses would actually have been a hell of a lot less if we could have gotten two Battleships within range of the Japanese carriers. Battleships are designed to take a lot of punishment, but carriers are amazingly "soft targets", and could be sunk rather easily with only a few hits with their main guns.

To use modern video game terminology, think of carriers as "glass cannons", and battleships as "meat tanks".

And contrary to popular belief, a carrier had absolutely no chance against a battleship. And on 8 December Japan had 10 Battleships, the US Pacific Fleet had none. Nine were sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor, the USS Pennsylvania had moderate damage as she was in dry dock at Pearl, and the USS Colorado was undergoing a refit in Washington. And without our Battleships, we were simply not going to send our Carriers out into risky waters as they would have no defense from Japanese Battleships or cruisers.

And this would actually be seen less than a year later at the Battle of Savo Island. Part of the Guadalcanal operation, they did land Marines and take part of the islands against light Japanese resistance. But once they learned of a large Japanese force moving in that direction, the Carriers and their escorts all turned around and left. Something that left a bad taste in the mouth of many Marines, as they felt like they had been abandoned. But the hard truth is that they had no choice, as the Japanese force had 6 Heavy Cruisers, any one of which could have easily sunk the carriers if they had gotten within range. And without Battleships to stand off the cruisers, they simply had no choice but to leave.

 

[DudleySmith]

Due to the Neutrality Act, the USN was providing naval escort in the Western Atlantic to shipping/convoys headed to England prior to Dec. 1941 and some USN ships had been attacked and sunk* by German U-boats providing "cause belie" for the USA to enter the war against Germany.

USS Reuben James (DD-245)​

Yes. We were unofficially at war with Germany before the official declarations came along, trying to maintain a defensive line in the Atlantic to protect shipping against German Naval raids and subs.

 

[Weatherman2020]

do you know what happened in Dresden today in 1945?

what do you think about it …. if you know about it?

Shit happens when you start a war.

 

[there4eyeM]

The "allies" conducted themselves similarly to their enemies to a great extent. War is organized insanity and any sane nation would avoid it if possible. The U.S. was attacked, and self defense is justified within reason. Intentionally and savagely targeting civilians didn't really do much to shorten the war and only made those doing it look uncivilized.

 

[Grau]

do you know what happened in Dresden today in 1945?

what do you think about it …. if you know about it?

I've seen pre War photos of Dresden and its destruction was among the war's worst war crimes.
In a just world, those behind the firebombing of Dresden would have been hung along with those "just following orders" of Arthur "the Butcher" Harris and the grossly over rated Winston Churchill whose objective of the cowardly mass murder was to "roast German refugees":


“I do not want suggestions as to how we can disable the economy and the machinery of war, what I want are suggestions as to how we can roast the German refugees on their escape from Breslau.”

Prime Minister Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill: the Imperial Monster

Fear-Monger, War Criminal, Racist

www.counterpunch.org

Dresden was just one of the countless civilian areas that was targeted by the same mass murdering war criminals.

Thanks,

 

[Zebra]

there was a leftist german politician, who went around with the slogan

thank you, bomber Harris!

her,name ….

ANNE HELM

 

[Zebra]

I've seen pre War photos of Dresden and its destruction was among the war's worst war crimes.
In a just world, those behind the firebombing of Dresden would have been hung along with those "just following orders" of Arthur "the Butcher" Harris and the grossly over rated Winston Churchill whose objective of the cowardly mass murder was to "roast German refugees":


“I do not want suggestions as to how we can disable the economy and the machinery of war, what I want are suggestions as to how we can roast the German refugees on their escape from Breslau.”

Prime Minister Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill: the Imperial Monster

Fear-Monger, War Criminal, Racist

www.counterpunch.org

Dresden was just one of the countless civilian areas that was targeted by the same mass murdering war criminals.

Thanks,

i agree 100 percent!