English should be the official language?

[Foxfyre]

Nice story Fox, but not all people are as fortunate to be able to pick up the language as well...and it takes a tremendous amount of time not just something that occurs which means there has to be translation for those who are still starting out. I know people who have learned English in 2 years and some who have been in the US and actually made effort and still do not speak English well enough to be understood in 15 years time. My STBX has been in the US for 19 years, his accent is horrible. He speaks and understands English, but he cannot write very well in English. He spent most of his time working from sunup to sundown and picked English up at work. Someone with access to school as much as the person in your example is invariably going to learn faster than someone who works 14 hours or more a day in a job where they are not exposed to people who can teach them English.

I have a point of contention with our immigration laws when it comes to Cubans...yes, they escaped Fidel Castro...we have Mexicans running like hell from the Zetas and Central Americans too...and they are far more brutal than Castro has been.

People incapable of learning our language should probably stay in their home countries. There are safer areas of their home countries whether in South America or Mexico for people to go until they can qualify for a green card here if they want to come here. I have friends in Brazil, Peru, Argentina and Mexico. None have experienced anything comparable to what Castro put his people through.

Contrary to Castro’s propaganda - repeated as Gospel by the U.S. media, which had kept the American people ignorant of the struggle of the Cuban people to get rid of his regime - there were resistance groups in the cities and rebel groups in the countryside as close as 36 kilometers to Havana, and extending to other provinces.

According to conservative estimates there were 10,000 rebels across the island (much more than the some 3500 that fought against Batista). While Batista’s army was 40,000 men, Castro needed an army of more than 250,000 men to fight them. Castro's revolution was bloody from the beginning.

In January 1960, a group of peasants - frustrated by the abuses of the communist-leaning Castro revolution - went into the Escambray Mountains in the first open revolt against the regime. Soon the peasant rebels numbered in the hundreds and later people from all walks of life joined them resulting in a total of about 3500.

Following the Hitler and Stalin models, Castro, maligning the peasants as "bandits," ordered in 1961 the massive relocation of thousands of them from the Escambray area, with the objective of cutting off the increasing number of rebels, their support, contacts and food supply. (This relocation-of-peasants technique was also followed by the Castro-supported communist Sandinistas in Nicaragua in the 1980s to crush a similar opposition uprising.)

Thousands of families were forcibly evicted from the Escambray Mountains at gunpoint from their properties. As during the times of Hitler and Stalin, the peasants were herded into trains where families were separated and banished. The men were sent to prisons and forced labor camps throughout Cuba. Women and children were housed in expropriated houses converted into detention centers in far away cities.

The communist technique was to hold these families incommunicado from their relatives in distant areas of the island. When their children were six years old, they were removed from their mothers and interned in communist indoctrination schools.

For years the men were subjected to abusive and inhumane treatment. Using them for forced labor, the “closed towns” of Ramon Lopez Pena, Sandino, Briones Montoto, Miraflores, Imias, Mamamantuabo and Velaco were built in the provinces of Pinar del Rio, Matanzas and Camaguey.

Eventually, the family members from throughout Cuba were relocated to these closed towns. They were ordered never to return to their original land. These towns were guarded concentration camps off limits to the rest of the population. This operation lasted until 1972, but these peasants have never been allowed to leave their assigned towns. Today, four decades later, they are still being treated as prisoners and hostages of Castro's regime.

Castro’s genocide war following a scorched-earth technique of encircling the rebels was concluded in 1965, after killing a total of 2236, according to Dr. Armando Lago’s research for an upcoming book. From this total, Dr. Lago says, 1415 were executed on sight without trial. Castro’s policy was to execute all prisoners by shooting or hanging after being viciously tortured.
FORTY THREE YEAR STRUGGLE AGAINST CASTRO

Anyone of reasonable intelligence, and we really don't want anybody without reasonable intelligence to come here, can master a language sufficiently to communicate within six months or less if they are motivated and immersed in the process. I've personally helped and witnessed hundreds do it.

 

[Xchel]

Anyone of reasonable intelligence, and we really don't want anybody without reasonable intelligence to come here, can master a language sufficiently to communicate within six months or less if they are motivated and immersed in the process. I've personally helped and witnessed hundreds do it.[/QUOTE]

Have you witnessed the murders of 40,000 people in Mexico alone by the Zetas and other Cartels? Some of them include torture and murders of entire families as well as being burned to death in a casino recently. I have personally witnessed a lot of this myself..including the murder of 2 people in my neighborhood because they dared talk to authorities.

A person who is even near genius level will not master any foreign language in six months if they are over 11 years old. Master and become semi communicative are two entirely different things.

 

[Againsheila]

The three types of Japanese are kanji, hiragana, and katakana...there are dozens of dialects of Japanese, not just three.

Those are the written languages. To my knowledge there is only one spoken language in Japan.

Another written language is Rumanji...which is basically our alphabet spelling their words.

 

[Uncensored2008]

leftist bs? Oh whatever, I am hardly a leftist.

Sure..

Now that is out of the way...you perhaps are the one who should learn some history since the Mexican American war was the first conflict driven by the idea of Manifest Destiny....

Nope.

Manifest destiny was the concept that the USA was destined to occupy the land from coast to coast. It was the Westward push. The Mexican American war was incidental to the concept, which predated by decades, going back to John Sullivan and even Andrew Jackson.

Polk was a Democrat, and as such preached the Democrats platform of manifest destiny, but his eye was on British held Oregon. The push was West, not South.

figured you would know that before saying something like you just did...but clearly you did not.
The History Guy: The U.S.-Mexican War (1846-1848)

In fact, Polk was the president when we became involved in the conflict..but nah he didn't have anything to do with it according to you....

The Texas revolt sparked the Mexican American war. The refusal to recognize the independence of Texas was the flame, Mexico declaring war when the Polk administration annexed Texas in 1845 was the maelstrom. HAD Mexico not reacted to Texas joining the Union, there would never have been a war. California still would have been sold, Mexico was desperate, but who knows, New Mexico and Arizona might STILL be Mexican territory. Valentín Gómez Farías was an idiot to declare a war he had no ability to fight. Taking on Texas was a possibility, but Mexico was no match for the US military. It was only the failure of the Mexican government that led to such a stupid move.

 

[Foxfyre]

Those sufficiently motivated seem to manage to do it Xichel. And I'm not going to get into a semantics debate with you. I have quite a bit of hands on experience working with immigrants who were on a path to citizenship and I know what they ALL were able to accomplish. My brother-in-law's family escaped Mussolini's Italy just as WWII was breaking out. They arrived on Ellis Island with little more than the clothes on their back and the hope of a job in the coal mines of Southern Colorado and Northern New Mexico. Within six months they were ALL reading and speaking sufficient English to get by which was required to be able to work in the mines and to get the kids into New Mexico schools.

The senseless deaths in Mexico are indeed in the tens of thousands and are indefensible though most have been skirmishes between the druglords and government forces. It is not the government however who is ordering such abuses but it comes from the sociopathic druglords themselves coupled with corruption within the Mexican military and law enforcement. When such deaths were occuring in Lybia, the U.N. intervened while turning a blind eye to Syria and other places where people were being equally brutalized. But because the violence does not originate from the Mexican head of state, there is no justification to intervene I guess.

But none of that has anything to do with U.S. immigration policy. I think you are being excessively naive and dismissive re what motivated people can accomplish when the system requires that of them.

 

[Xchel]

aha any more lies you want to tell us Fox? If they left Italy in six months they weren't speaking perfect English not all of them you can believe that day dream the rest of us know it is a lie.

excessively naive? I live in a country where people pay to go to bilingual schools in order to learn English and pay big bucks..none of them learn in six months..none!

Here are some quick facts for you

In one study, Thomas & Collier researched a group of Asian and Hispanic students from an affluent suburban school district receiving 1-3 hours second language support per day in a well-regarded ESL program . These students were generally exited from ESL in the first two years. All of the students researched were at or above grade level in native language literacy. Here are the results for students in this study.

Those students who were between 8-11 years old and had 2-3 years of native language education took 5-7 years to test at grade level in English. These were the lucky ones.
Students with little or no formal schooling who arrived before the age of eight, took 7-10 years to reach grade level norms in English language literacy.
Students who were below grade level in native language literacy also took 7-10 years to reach the 50th percentile. Many of these students never reached grade level norms.
This data holds true regardless of the home language, country of origin, and socioeconomic status. (Thomas & Collier, 1997).
http://www.everythingesl.net/inservices/_long_does_take_learn_english_55843.php

 

[Xchel]

In case you forget, Texas was a state of Mexico.

 

[Uncensored2008]

In case you forget, Texas was a state of Mexico.

That changed about 1836.

 

[Foxfyre]

aha any more lies you want to tell us Fox? If they left Italy in six months they weren't speaking perfect English not all of them you can believe that day dream the rest of us know it is a lie.

excessively naive? I live in a country where people pay to go to bilingual schools in order to learn English and pay big bucks..none of them learn in six months..none!

Here are some quick facts for you

In one study, Thomas & Collier researched a group of Asian and Hispanic students from an affluent suburban school district receiving 1-3 hours second language support per day in a well-regarded ESL program . These students were generally exited from ESL in the first two years. All of the students researched were at or above grade level in native language literacy. Here are the results for students in this study.

Those students who were between 8-11 years old and had 2-3 years of native language education took 5-7 years to test at grade level in English. These were the lucky ones.
Students with little or no formal schooling who arrived before the age of eight, took 7-10 years to reach grade level norms in English language literacy.
Students who were below grade level in native language literacy also took 7-10 years to reach the 50th percentile. Many of these students never reached grade level norms.
This data holds true regardless of the home language, country of origin, and socioeconomic status. (Thomas & Collier, 1997).
How long does it take to learn English?

My brother-in-laws family were not subjected to government schools to learn English which do perform abysmally worse than the old system. Not only for immigrant childeren but for our native born ones. And your own reading comprehension seems to need some work as you have several times added words like 'perfect' to what I have actually said. Why don't you go back and reread and be a bit more careful in your analysis of what I actually posted.

 

[Xchel]

and since you want to seem to argue about manifest destiny

this is from the link that I provided that you failed to read....or you would have noticed the first lines

The Mexican-American War was the first major conflict driven by the idea of "Manifest Destiny"; the belief that America had a God-given right, or destiny, to expand the country's borders from 'sea to shining sea'. This belief would eventually cause a great deal of suffering for many Mexicans, Native Americans and United States citizens. Following the earlier Texas War of Independence from Mexico, tensions between the two largest independent nations on the North American continent grew as Texas eventually became a U.S. state. Disputes over the border lines sparked military confrontation, helped by the fact that President Polk eagerly sought a war in order to seize large tracts of land from Mexico.

and this is from Wikipedia
Manifest Destiny was the 19th century American belief that the United States was destined to expand across the continent. It was used by Democrats in the 1840s to justify the war with Mexico; the concept was denounced by Whigs, and fell into disuse after the mid-19th century.
Manifest Destiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and this
The U.S.-Mexican War . Prelude to War . Manifest Destiny Overview | PBS

and this
The Mexican-American War

 

[Xchel]

it doesn't matter when it occurred..it was part of Mexico and Mexico did not recognize Texas independence. The US started the Mexican American war because of the belief that they had a god given right to Mexican land....the proof has been provided to you..now disprove it.

 

[Foxfyre]

and since you want to seem to argue about manifest destiny

this is from the link that I provided that you failed to read....or you would have noticed the first lines

The Mexican-American War was the first major conflict driven by the idea of "Manifest Destiny"; the belief that America had a God-given right, or destiny, to expand the country's borders from 'sea to shining sea'. This belief would eventually cause a great deal of suffering for many Mexicans, Native Americans and United States citizens. Following the earlier Texas War of Independence from Mexico, tensions between the two largest independent nations on the North American continent grew as Texas eventually became a U.S. state. Disputes over the border lines sparked military confrontation, helped by the fact that President Polk eagerly sought a war in order to seize large tracts of land from Mexico.

and this is from Wikipedia
Manifest Destiny was the 19th century American belief that the United States was destined to expand across the continent. It was used by Democrats in the 1840s to justify the war with Mexico; the concept was denounced by Whigs, and fell into disuse after the mid-19th century.
Manifest Destiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and this
The U.S.-Mexican War . Prelude to War . Manifest Destiny Overview | PBS

and this
The Mexican-American War

Did you miss the part that it also had its strong opponents as well as advocates? And that the concept died out in the mid 19th century? That would be 160 years ago? Boy you carry a grudge a long time huh.

 

[Xchel]

none of that has anything to do with U.S. immigration policy.

no it has to do with our drug war.

 

[Unkotare]

The three types of Japanese are kanji, hiragana, and katakana...there are dozens of dialects of Japanese, not just three.

Those are the written languages. To my knowledge there is only one spoken language in Japan.

Another written language is Rumanji...which is basically our alphabet spelling their words.

No, those are three aspects of the ONE (written and spoken) language. And what you were talking about is 'Romanji.'

 

[Unkotare]

Functionality and fluency are matters of degree and ill-defined. Truly "mastering" a language other than your first - if you are older than the critical period - is indeed a life-long endeavor. Learning enough to function in a given context will of course depend on that context. If someone has been studying a language for many years they will be the first to admit they have not "mastered" it. On the other hand, someone who managed to pass Jr High Spanish may boast of being fluent when that is hardly the case and it is not uncommon for people in the first year or so of learning a language to over-estimate their degree of proficiency.

 

[Zona]

Gingrich got applause at the debate for saying English should be our official language. Agree or disagree?

i disagree. I think we should all learn the Native American language.

 

[Xchel]

Functionality and fluency are matters of degree and ill-defined. Truly "mastering" a language other than your first - if you are older than the critical period - is indeed a life-long endeavor. Learning enough to function in a given context will of course depend on that context. If someone has been studying a language for many years they will be the first to admit they have not "mastered" it. On the other hand, someone who managed to pass Jr High Spanish may boast of being fluent when that is hardly the case and it is not uncommon for people in the first year or so of learning a language to over-estimate their degree of proficiency.

and they most certainly don't function in the language well enough to understand things like court proceedings, medical opinions, tax codes and so forth, which are all likely to be governmental functions affected by such an English only ruling.

 

[Unkotare]

Gingrich got applause at the debate for saying English should be our official language. Agree or disagree?

i disagree. I think we should all learn the Native American language.

Which one?

 

[Unkotare]

Functionality and fluency are matters of degree and ill-defined. Truly "mastering" a language other than your first - if you are older than the critical period - is indeed a life-long endeavor. Learning enough to function in a given context will of course depend on that context. If someone has been studying a language for many years they will be the first to admit they have not "mastered" it. On the other hand, someone who managed to pass Jr High Spanish may boast of being fluent when that is hardly the case and it is not uncommon for people in the first year or so of learning a language to over-estimate their degree of proficiency.

and they most certainly don't function in the language well enough to understand things like court proceedings, medical opinions, tax codes and so forth, which are all likely to be governmental functions affected by such an English only ruling.

Which does not obligate the host nation to accomodate them.

 

[Foxfyre]

Functionality and fluency are matters of degree and ill-defined. Truly "mastering" a language other than your first - if you are older than the critical period - is indeed a life-long endeavor. Learning enough to function in a given context will of course depend on that context. If someone has been studying a language for many years they will be the first to admit they have not "mastered" it. On the other hand, someone who managed to pass Jr High Spanish may boast of being fluent when that is hardly the case and it is not uncommon for people in the first year or so of learning a language to over-estimate their degree of proficiency.

and they most certainly don't function in the language well enough to understand things like court proceedings, medical opinions, tax codes and so forth, which are all likely to be governmental functions affected by such an English only ruling.

Which does not obligate the host nation to accomodate them.

Exactly.

This guy says he has perfected a technique to have a working knowledge of any new language in three months. I believe him though that would be really ambitious for most.
How to become fluent in a language in 3 months | Fluent in 3 months

The government generally uses a six-month time frame for workers to acquire a working knowledge of a language before they are sent on missions to a particular country.

The government uses these guidelines for proficiency:

» Elementary Proficiency
The person is able to satisfy routine travel needs and minimum courtesy requirements.

» Limited Working Proficiency
The person is able to satisfy routine social demands and limited work requirements.

» Minimum Professional Proficiency
The person can speak the language with sufficient structural accuracy and vocabulary to participate effectively in most formal and informal conversations on practical, social, and professional topics.

» Full Professional Proficiency
The person uses the language fluently and accurately on all levels normally pertinent to professional needs.

» Native or Optimum Bilingual Proficiency
The person has speaking proficiency equivalent to that of an educated native speaker.

Almost all who are sufficiently motivated can acquire limited working proficiency in six months and many will achieve minimum professional proficiency which would qualify them as bilingual in most occupations. It would generally take a couple of years up to five years to get to native or full bilingual profiency, especially in the more difficult languages.