Europe's Long-Standing Dislike of America

[sitarro]

Actually you're wrong. The electoral college elected Bush president. He won the popular vote the second time. The first time, the winner of the popular vote was unconfirmed and Bush was proclaimed president by judicial fiat.

And I didn't say that anything the public decides is the best choice. I said finally public opinion has gotten some common sense. There's a big difference, so don't put words into my mouth. You're right about popular opinion changing on a whim.



Hey buddy, I call 'em like I see 'em.

I know that it has been a huge surprise for all of you ace college kids with public schooling backgrounds but here in the United States, for numerous reasons, we use the electoral college system of voting for the President. Because of this knowledge I didn't vote for W in the 2000 election. I knew that living in Texas he had the electoral vote, he didn't need mine. I decided to instead vote for the Liberatarian candidate to hopefully send a smaller government message. If I would have known that the decision would be based on a popular vote, Bush would have had mine.
Does it bother you that the Democrats pander to the lowest forms of life to try to buy a vote? Cartons of cigarettes for homeless votes, fried chicken lunches for black votes, MTV ads to get kids that don't know or care about politics to vote and of course the active pursuit by Senators like Clinton and Kennedy to get felons the right to vote from jail. They also try to keep military personnel from getting their votes counted as in the 2000 election. I am sure they are trying to get it legalized for illegal aliens to vote for them also. Why is it that they feel an informed, intelligent base is not who they want? Why are we their worst enemy?
I am actually registered as a Democrat because I liked John F. Kennedy when I was growing up, I have never voted for a Democrat. The democrats never fail too insult my intelligence each day, sometimes multiple times during the course of a day.
I still suggest that if you email the NYTimes your posts from this board, they will hire you immediately, why waste time or money learning anything?

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by manu1959
then tell me…why did the US go to Iraq

Read the Project for the New American Century publication: Rebuilding America’s Defences. It says it all. America seeks global domination by force, a Hobbesian view of the world in which strength alone determines whether actions should be taken.
Essentially, it means American firepower will bring the American model of a western society to the rest of the world, installing puppet governments to rule vital nations of strategic interest, and blowin everybody to smithereens that disagrees with this concept.
Not all at once of course, because total war with Russia would result in the annihilation of both the US and Russia. No, Russia and other strong countries should be intimidated into submission, by showing them examplary “shock and awe” invasions.

Originally posted by manu1959
were the germans, french russians and chinese not protecting their interests?

Yes, like I stated previously, global politics is nothing but filthy backroom deals bribing the opposition and securing one’s own interest with as many means available as one could get away with. This means in the case of the US: total war.
In the case of weak European nations this means for now trying to diplomatically convince everyone that the US is not yet insane enough to destroy the world and keeping options of diplomacy with the US open. A failing strategy, no doubt.

Originally posted by manu1959
what does america’s past have to do with the here and now?

Everything. History determines policy always.
Germans are still guilt tripping about the fact they started both world wars, although the first has obviously less to do with this than the second. They are strong advocates now of a multilateral approach because they fear their own unilateral goals.
The US has never been opposed by any force that would be a match, save for the British Empire at the dawn of your creation. Thus the American people are hungry for war still, with whomever, whenever. Because the American people believe war is something fought by your uber army in far away countries, so the regular citizens have no clue as to the horrors of war on the ground. It’s in your heads, because of your history.

Originally posted by manu1959
france used to be an evil empire bent on taking over the world…since you were once that should i believe that you are still that?

France was bent on Empire in the days that most European countries were. War between the European nations was shoved to the back of everybody’s minds because there was a world to conquer. The Europeans shaped the modern world through brutal conquest, oppression and downright slaugter. Including the French.
Would they do so again given the chance? Possibly. However, the chance is quite small, as you can distill from the above statement regarding history.
France has refrained from Empire ambitions for quite a while now, and the second world war made sure people in Europe started seeing war as the final solution to problems, not as the most convenient or masculine one.
Thus equating the history of France with the recent example of brutal invasion by the US in defiance of the world is quite ignorant on your behalf. No matter your excuses as a nation.

Originally posted by manu1959
hate us all you want yall are just a few rock short of a full box

Marvellous insight into the European psyche, manu.
To at least reply to this utter non-argument I will lower myself to your level for a second.
“Crunch crunch manu like eat rocks“
“Crunch, splinter manu like eat box“

 

[sitarro]

Harmageddon,
Your screen name gives everyone a hint of your rediculous paranoia, your posts confirm that it is true.

What possible reason would the United States have for taking over third world, garbage nations, we have enough third worlders coming across our borders everyday. I understand why you Euros are so paranoid, your press is so full of shit you could cover your continent with it and deep. If they make up anything bad about the U.S., no matter how stupid, you guys believe it. My question is why you, an educated guy, would believe such nonsense. You do have access to the internet, at least until the E.U. whines it's way into stealing part of it.

If you feel a need to be paranoid you might consider the nutcase radical Islamists that are taking over Europe. You guys think that if you don't get involved with the eradication of these useless roaches that you will be saved, sure, talk to Spain about that. You guys and the rest of the chicken shit world need to form a united front against these mentally ill vermin before it is too late. What are you diplomats waiting for?

I think you might also take a look at China and India that are suffering from serious growing pains and will be much more inclined to steal nations for their resources. The idiots that wrote that assinine Kyoto treaty didn't even address the problem of a couple billion people that are growing every minute and need more resources than any single country by a long shot.

Your world domination theories are aimed at the wrong people, your continent is a pitstop on the way to ours from most of the biggest asshole countries. You know what that means, the U.S. will have to come to Europe's aid again . And even though you guys are basically spitting in our collective faces, when the shit hits the fan, we will be the ones to come to your aid. . . that's who we are.. . after all most off the decent Americans have roots in Europe(you guys keep forgetting that).

Then again maybe not. :usa: :cof:

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by Sitarro:
What possible reason would the United States have for taking over third world, garbage nations, we have enough third worlders coming across our borders everyday.

The US has no reason to take over third world garbage nations that are just that. However, when these nations happen to sit on enormous reserves of oil, things are different. I'm not saying all Americans are happy invading Iraq, but your government has just begun it's takeover of the Middle East.
Read the Project for the New American Century's document: Rebuilding America's Defences, it should give you a clue to what is going on.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
I understand why you Euros are so paranoid, your press is so full of shit you could cover your continent with it and deep. If they make up anything bad about the U.S., no matter how stupid, you guys believe it.

Do you honestly believe the European press thinks Saddam was a swell guy, that Putin is right on track with his reform of Russia and the Chinese have the best humanitarian program on the planet? Think again.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
My question is why you, an educated guy, would believe such nonsense. You do have access to the internet, at least until the E.U. whines it's way into stealing part of it.

My answer is that I have come to the conclusion that your present government is seeking Empire, based on a Hobbessian view of the world which adores strength to the point where it becomes the only barganing tool at the diplomatic table. With politics of fear, the population of America is force fed a whole range of lies to protect them from fantasy threats. Whenever a scandal is about to hit the White House, the terrorist level goes up a level somewhere in your country, and everyone forgets what was happening previously. It is a very ugly game that is being played on the American public. And because your media is threatened into cooperation, you don't hear a thing. We do however hear it all. And not just Europeans either, but people from all over the world.

Already torture at Gitmo and Abu Graib is marginalized, compared with greater evils of Saddam it's nothing really. But for the fact that it still is torture. At the same time the American people give up personal freedoms for the sake of security. Both Patriot Acts shredded parts of your constitution: the one sole document that your patriotism should be built upon. This contrasts sharply with some forefathers of yours, that cried: "Give me liberty, or give me death!"

I do not wish to spell out all of my conclusions based on empiric evidence for you, I'd rather have you find out for yourself. That way we can discuss our findings and see if we left out anything to consider.

Like I have stated before: do not believe anything from a single newssource. Not Faux news, not me. Try and find facts from multiple sources, compare them and then build your conclusions on them. Do not follow like a blind sheep all the way to the altar.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
If you feel a need to be paranoid you might consider the nutcase radical Islamists that are taking over Europe. You guys think that if you don't get involved with the eradication of these useless roaches that you will be saved, sure, talk to Spain about that. You guys and the rest of the chicken shit world need to form a united front against these mentally ill vermin before it is too late. What are you diplomats waiting for?

Radical Islamists are utter nutcases, I agree. So are radical Christians.
My point is: they will never take over Europe, ever. Yes, we have been soft in the past, but all our immigration laws have tightened over the years, and the radicals are already losing ground. Because we started conversations with the moderates: we are on the way of working together in ousting these hate preachers.
Spain was bombed because they were in Iraq. So was Britain. Spain left Iraq.
Britain will very likely be bombed again.
I would have liked to see the world form a united front, beginning with a stance towards Saddam. But sadly, your government could not wait another two weeks for the weapons inspectors to finish their work, and for the UN deadline that was to follow. So your government invaded.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
I think you might also take a look at China and India that are suffering from serious growing pains and will be much more inclined to steal nations for their resources. The idiots that wrote that assinine Kyoto treaty didn't even address the problem of a couple billion people that are growing every minute and need more resources than any single country by a long shot.

Indeed. It was stated however, that the western industrialized countries should lead by example. And although China is growing fast, it is not considered an industrialized nation. When the US, the largest industrialized nation decided not to sign, there was hardly any political pressure left to convince non-industrialized nations like China to follow the lead.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
Your world domination theories are aimed at the wrong people, your continent is a pitstop on the way to ours from most of the biggest asshole countries. You know what that means, the U.S. will have to come to Europe's aid again . And even though you guys are basically spitting in our collective faces, when the shit hits the fan, we will be the ones to come to your aid. . . that's who we are.. . after all most off the decent Americans have roots in Europe(you guys keep forgetting that).

I am familiar with the fact that rampant Europeans settled across the Atlantic and battled for freedom against the French and British colonial powers that were ruling you.
However, what makes you think Europe and America will be overrun by an evil ideology by the name of Extreme Islamic Jihad or whatever when we try and negotiate fair trade is beyond me. Especially since you seem to believe that by bombing the crap out of part of their ranks, they will feel less inclined for revenge.

This my friend, is usually not the case, as can be seen from our namecalling contests in earlier posts.

 

[sitarro]

The US has no reason to take over third world garbage nations that are just that. However, when these nations happen to sit on enormous reserves of oil, things are different. I'm not saying all Americans are happy invading Iraq, but your government has just begun it's takeover of the Middle East.
Read the Project for the New American Century's document: Rebuilding America's Defences, it should give you a clue to what is going on.

Even though it was European and American technology and knowledge that located, drilled, and produced the enormous reserves of oil we still pay a tremendous amount for it. Nobody is over there stealing it. The war with Saddam's administration and subsequent policing of foreign nationals streaming in to prevent any progress from occuring in Iraq has cost the U.S. and it's allies a great deal in personnel and rebuilding of an infrastructure that had been left to decay as Saddam took the billions from the "oil for food" program and built 35 palace campuses.. . gold toilets and all. And while his people starved he and his sons became international playboys and torturous murderers.

Do you honestly believe the European press thinks Saddam was a swell guy, that Putin is right on track with his reform of Russia and the Chinese have the best humanitarian program on the planet? Think again.

Why wasn't something done about him. Why haven't the countries that sold him arms during the embargo been punished. What will happen to the UN officials that were involved with helping Saddam? Why hasn't he received one hundreth the criticism that is directed at America and our President?

My answer is that I have come to the conclusion that your present government is seeking Empire, based on a Hobbessian view of the world which adores strength to the point where it becomes the only barganing tool at the diplomatic table. With politics of fear, the population of America is force fed a whole range of lies to protect them from fantasy threats. Whenever a scandal is about to hit the White House, the terrorist level goes up a level somewhere in your country, and everyone forgets what was happening previously. It is a very ugly game that is being played on the American public. And because your media is threatened into cooperation, you don't hear a thing. We do however hear it all. And not just Europeans either, but people from all over the world.

How would you know what we hear in the media? If the government has so much control over the media, how do you explain the extremely one sided reporting against President Bush and his administration. There is absolutely no control over the internet . . . obviously I am talking to you and if you want you can easily reveal the truth that we naive Americans aren't hearing. I have heard that crap from my European friends and they can't explain how the media as a whole is so antiBush, kinda blows that whole theory out of the water.

Already torture at Gitmo and Abu Graib is marginalized, compared with greater evils of Saddam it's nothing really. But for the fact that it still is torture.

Torture? really is that what Europe is calling torture these days? Seems I remember walking skeletons being led to gas chambers in the heart of Europe a mere 43 years ago. Panties on the head is not torture, stacking these clowns naked is not unusual, these aren't boyscouts they are killers and need to be kept secure, they want to kill you and me and their guards just because. I wouldn't have bothered holding on to them, I would let them try something so I could kill them and be done with it.

At the same time the American people give up personal freedoms for the sake of security. Both Patriot Acts shredded parts of your constitution: the one sole document that your patriotism should be built upon. This contrasts sharply with some forefathers of yours, that cried: "Give me liberty, or give me death!

Still don't know what freedoms I, a law abiding citizen of the U.S., has given up, please enlighten me.

Like I have stated before: do not believe anything from a single . Not Faux news, not me. Try and find facts from multiple sources, compare them and then build your conclusions on them. Do not follow like a blind sheep all the way to the altar.

I do follow numerous sources, why do you think I know what crap is written about the U.S. in Euro papers. Fox news is nomore slanted than the BBC, ABC, NBC, Al Jazerraor any of the other news sources that I monitor.

Radical Islamists are utter nutcases, I agree. So are radical Christians.
My point is: they will never take over Europe, ever. Yes, we have been soft in the past, but all our immigration laws have tightened over the years, and the radicals are already losing ground. Because we started conversations with the moderates: we are on the way of working together in ousting these hate preachers.]

Radical Christians don't saw innocent people's heads off. The worst they will do is pray for you.

Spain was bombed because they were in Iraq. So was Britain. Spain left Iraq.

I thought I remembered that Spain was bombed after it left Iraq.

Britain will very likely be bombed again.
I would have liked to see the world form a united front, beginning with a stance towards Saddam. But sadly, your government could not wait another two weeks for the weapons inspectors to finish their work, and for the UN deadline that was to follow. So your government invaded.

The UN inspectors were a joke and Saddam knew it. I would think Hans Blix was deep in saddam's pocket, he certainly acts like it. I doubt he could find his dick in a tight low rise brief.

Indeed. It was stated however, that the western industrialized countries should lead by example. And although China is growing fast, it is not considered an industrialized nation. When the US, the largest industrialized nation decided not to sign, there was hardly any political pressure left to convince non-industrialized nations like China to follow the lead.

It really gets tiring leading by example and having other companies lie and cheat and still call the U.S. wrong. Why shouldn't we play the same game as the rest of the world.

I am familiar with the fact that rampant Europeans settled across the Atlantic and battled for freedom against the French and British colonial powers that were ruling you.
However, what makes you think Europe and America will be overrun by an evil ideology by the name of Extreme Islamic Jihad or whatever when we try and negotiate fair trade is beyond me. Especially since you seem to believe that by bombing the crap out of part of their ranks, they will feel less inclined for revenge.

How do you negotiate with assholes that send children to their death by strapping bombs to them. Take the crustiest old American military man and I'll guarantee that he would be the one to strap on the bomb before they would let a kid do it. This bombing campaign was forecasted months in advance and very expensive guided bombs were used, it was he most careful bombing campaign in history. The U.S. has lost a lot of great young men by fighting this war in a politically correct way. If I was in charge, Fallujah would be rubble and dust.

This my friend, is usually not the case, as can be seen from our namecalling contests in earlier posts.

My own family members get into huge fights, it's human nature, Utopia is not. Saddam started the fight 14 years ago, the world agreed and we should have destroyed him then, the world had different ideas. He tried to kill an exPresident, that's good enough for me. . . and that could have been Clinton, it wouldn't matter. . . his as would have been taken out.

 

[Harmageddon]

Originally posted by Sitarro:
Why wasn't something done about him. Why haven't the countries that sold him arms during the embargo been punished. What will happen to the UN officials that were involved with helping Saddam? Why hasn't he received one hundreth the criticism that is directed at America and our President?

Good questions. I think it has to do with the blatant hypocrisy on all levels, since more and more governments bow to the will of large corporatios instead of the will of the people. This is not just the case with your government that has been paid some 80 million by the oil industry and is working to take care of this industry. It is the case in many countries around the world. That is indeed a sad prospect.
Everyone can be bought, including presidents and UN representatives, so that is basically what is happening all over the place. Hell, I’ve even sent the UN an email at the beginning of the Iraq war warning them for a global peasant revolution if they refrain from controlling the greed of their members. Not that anyone read it of course.

The only way to stop these multinational corporations is to rein them in by the people. Since multinationals transcend the will of nations – if they are not allowed to continue their practices they can just build their factories somewhere else, preferrably in some corrupt third world nation, where governments are even cheaper to buy – there is nothing much a single nation can do about it.

Thus I, in all my youthful ignorance and idealism would like to see some multinational governmental institution that can back them down when they go too far.
Obviously, this will require hard work and will not be accomplished any time soon. And it’s a sad fact that the present UN is in no shape to take on this role.

I think I’ve made it clear that many people in the world hate Saddam with all their hearts. He is, was and will be a son of a bitch that deserves to be publicly executed in my view. However, first he will have a fair trial where he may say whatever he likes in his defence.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
How would you know what we hear in the media? If the government has so much control over the media, how do you explain the extremely one sided reporting against President Bush and his administration. There is absolutely no control over the internet . . . obviously I am talking to you and if you want you can easily reveal the truth that we naive Americans aren't hearing. I have heard that crap from my European friends and they can't explain how the media as a whole is so antiBush, kinda blows that whole theory out of the water.

Ever heard of good cop, bad cop?
That is what they’ve been playing on the American people for quite a while now. You’re either “with us, or against us” remember? That statement was referring not just to the terrorists, but to the American people, the press and the rest of the world as well. Everyone that has dared to seriously criticize the governments policies and had a serious job was ousted very quickly. And when televised debates drop to the level of the left vs. the right, I think the true point is missed. It’s not about left or right, but about humanity as a whole. (This is the extreme point of view)

Of course, we get a biased view of the American public here in Europe. And I am well aware that there are programs that do critisize your government’s policies but they do not seem to get to the bottom of things very fast. Yes, there are numerous scandals that are being prepared for the courtroom, such as the Valerie Plame affair involving Karl Rove and such, but what about Haliburton’s connections to Cheney? I know it has been in the news, but no serious follow up investigation has been started as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
Torture? really is that what Europe is calling torture these days? Seems I remember walking skeletons being led to gas chambers in the heart of Europe a mere 43 years ago. Panties on the head is not torture, stacking these clowns naked is not unusual, these aren't boyscouts they are killers and need to be kept secure, they want to kill you and me and their guards just because. I wouldn't have bothered holding on to them, I would let them try something so I could kill them and be done with it.

I’m not equating the sacks over heads and wires on arms with nazi deathcamps. However, that is not all that is going on in Gitmo and Abu Graib prison. Reported deaths of inmates, rape and torture of inmates, innocent people held indefinately without charges, those are serious accusations, made by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.

All I’m saying is if that is what does get out, it is the top of the iceberg. Germans said after WWII “Wir haben es nicht gewusst” which means “we didn’t know”. They really had no clue as to what was going on in those deathcamps. Sure, there was hard labour and rough conditions, but it was a prison camp, wasn’t it? I don’t believe there are gaschambers at Guantanamo, but what is there is an outrage and should be more transparent to prevent the US from losing any credibility it has left in the international community.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
Still don't know what freedoms I, a law abiding citizen of the U.S., has given up, please enlighten me.

I confess I do not know exactly what the Patriot Acts all encompassing effects are.
However, they do allow for the imprisonment of innocent civilians, suspected of being part of a “terrorist” group. No trial, no specific charges, no lawyer, no nothing. Sure, if you are a law abiding citizen you’re going to be allright. Just remember it was the jews first in the Third Reich and nobody cared, because they weren’t jews.
I believe it was Thomas Jefferson that said: “He who trades liberty for security deserves neither and will lose both.”

This professor of constitutional law, David Cole, sums it up better than I could:
http://www.fpif.org/papers/post9-11_body.html

Originally posted by Sitarro:
I do follow numerous sources, why do you think I know what crap is written about the U.S. in Euro papers. Fox news is nomore slanted than the BBC, ABC, NBC, Al Jazerraor any of the other news sources that I monitor.

I agree Al Jazeera is crap. I’ve monitored it for a while until I was offended by it’s extreme biased view, which did not hold any more truth than Fox news for that matter.
I do now check the Asia Times, Russian Pravda (no, I’m no communist), the British BBC, CNN, the dutch news, and numerous blogs that I have found to be credible after cross examination.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
Radical Christians don't saw innocent people's heads off. The worst they will do is pray for you.

Partly true, apparently the IRA quit now, because the competition was getting too lethal for them. However, they did not refrain from bombing innocent civilians not too long ago. Look, we both agree that radical Muslims are an insane evil bunch of f*ckheads.
But radical Muslims have been at the worst end of the table for a while, as compared to radical christians. Thus they employ the more desperate measures.
I’m only saying it’s logical. This does not make it right.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
I thought I remembered that Spain was bombed after it left Iraq.

Nope. The Madrid bombing took place at 11 march 2004.
Three days after the attack, at 14 march, the residing Spanish government that backed the invasion of Iraq was defeated in the Spanish general elections. Election turnout was a massive 77,2 percent, and the newly elected prime minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero pledged to bring home the 1300 troops that Spain has stationed in Iraq when their tour of duty was supposed to end in July 2004. For more, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_March_2004_Madrid_train_bombings

Originally posted by Sitarro:
The UN inspectors were a joke and Saddam knew it. I would think Hans Blix was deep in saddam's pocket, he certainly acts like it. I doubt he could find his dick in a tight low rise brief.

You had every right to be suspicious of Hans Blix or any other inspector.
However, they have all been proven right: no weapons of mass destruction.
Saddam in all fired 1 scud missile at Israel, that completely went off course.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
It really gets tiring leading by example and having other companies lie and cheat and still call the U.S. wrong. Why shouldn't we play the same game as the rest of the world.

Apparently.
For most European nations however, leading by example is still considered to be the way forward. Obviously they are not always very good or even honest about it. But I’m repeating myself. It beats leading by disaster anytime though.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
How do you negotiate with assholes that send children to their death by strapping bombs to them. Take the crustiest old American military man and I'll guarantee that he would be the one to strap on the bomb before they would let a kid do it. This bombing campaign was forecasted months in advance and very expensive guided bombs were used, it was he most careful bombing campaign in history. The U.S. has lost a lot of great young men by fighting this war in a politically correct way. If I was in charge, Fallujah would be rubble and dust.

The people that persuade others to strap bombs on their bodies and send them on suicide missions are very cowardly indeed. The people that persuade others to wear some crap body armour and send them on suicide missions are very cowardly as well.
Both of these kinds of people are in a position of power to tell others what to do.
Both kinds are chickenshit individuals when it comes down to it.
I find it really sad, and it angers me more than I can put in words.

I understand your military men are brave individuals. They really are.
The ones that send them over there however, are a different stock.
The bombing campaign was very likely the most precise in human history. It was also a very massive one – shock and awe I believe was the catchphrase.
Imagine things the other way around for a change, suppose America is warned of imminent attack for whatever reason.
Imagine you had no money, nor a car, nor a licence to leave the city in advance.
Imagine 10,000 cruise missiles falling from the skies on the key buildings of a single city in the first two days alone.
Imagine the secondary damage that might result from such a campaign.
Imagine the hatred for the indiscrimate death that seems to be surrounding you.

Originally posted by Sitarro:
My own family members get into huge fights, it's human nature, Utopia is not. Saddam started the fight 14 years ago, the world agreed and we should have destroyed him then, the world had different ideas. He tried to kill an exPresident, that's good enough for me. . . and that could have been Clinton, it wouldn't matter. . . his as would have been taken out.

I disagree utterly with the way America has handled things and is still handling things. There are so many assholes in the world, but instead of coming to a consensus with the UN as how to handle these, like the genocide in Darfur, the US has chosen exile.
Yes, the world should have acted long before in both Darfur and Iraq, but multilaterally. Unilateral interventions always increase the slaughter.

Whatever I try to convince you of, pointing a gun in your face to prove my point will only work for the very short term. And not because you’d agree either, only because you fear the gun.

Damn these posts get bigger every time. . . must . .stop. . typing. . ARGHL.

 

[IIIX]

Hey Padimwit,
My French friend is the one that said that, I don't read french so I don't have a clue how much your newspapers suck. I do read english and have seen how bad the newspapers are in Ireland, England and Scotland.
Have you ever watched Fox News? I didn't think so. :blah2:

I have watched fox news. I have also read the figaro.

Le Figaro is anti-american, your friend said. Are you sure your friend is french? Are you sure he can read french? The whole thing looks a lot like something you made up. Le figaro (right wing) is extremely unlikely to print anything anti-american. Maybe you are making a confusion with Libération or l'Humanité (left wing / communist) or Minute (extreme right). Besides, Le Figaro is biased, but less than Fox News, and most importantly, it is biased for the same side.

In any case, I find the whole topic of inter-atlantic hatred very amusing. Both sides like to claim that the other hates them, but refuses to acknowledge their own hatred. When this hatred is demonstrated, they usually try to show that it is justified and that "they are the one who started, anyway!!".

Very childish.

Seems I remember walking skeletons being led to gas chambers in the heart of Europe a mere 43 years ago.

You apparently don't remember well. It was more than 60 years ago. Besides, those who went to gas chambers weren't skeletons most of the time - those who became skeletons are the workers. Don't play with history!

 

[Annie]

I have watched fox news. I have also read the figaro.

Le Figaro is anti-american, your friend said. Are you sure your friend is french? Are you sure he can read french? The whole thing looks a lot like something you made up. Le figaro (right wing) is extremely unlikely to print anything anti-american. Maybe you are making a confusion with Libération or l'Humanité (left wing / communist) or Minute (extreme right). Besides, Le Figaro is biased, but less than Fox News, and most importantly, it is biased for the same side.

In any case, I find the whole topic of inter-atlantic hatred very amusing. Both sides like to claim that the other hates them, but refuses to acknowledge their own hatred. When this hatred is demonstrated, they usually try to show that it is justified and that "they are the one who started, anyway!!".

Very childish.



You apparently don't remember well. It was more than 60 years ago. Besides, those who went to gas chambers weren't skeletons most of the time - those who became skeletons are the workers. Don't play with history!

Hey, I hate 'old' Europe. Well, not the UK, but we speak the same language. I recognize France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands as being our enemies.

 

[sitarro]

I have watched fox news. I have also read the figaro.

Le Figaro is anti-american, your friend said. Are you sure your friend is french? Are you sure he can read french? The whole thing looks a lot like something you made up. Le figaro (right wing) is extremely unlikely to print anything anti-american. Maybe you are making a confusion with Libération or l'Humanité (left wing / communist) or Minute (extreme right). Besides, Le Figaro is biased, but less than Fox News, and most importantly, it is biased for the same side.

In any case, I find the whole topic of inter-atlantic hatred very amusing. Both sides like to claim that the other hates them, but refuses to acknowledge their own hatred. When this hatred is demonstrated, they usually try to show that it is justified and that "they are the one who started, anyway!!".

Very childish.



You apparently don't remember well. It was more than 60 years ago. Besides, those who went to gas chambers weren't skeletons most of the time - those who became skeletons are the workers. Don't play with history!

You are obviously right, the Jewish Holocaust did take place over 60 years ago. Still a very short time.
About my friend, is he French? If you are from Paris you probably wouldn't think so. He was born and lived most of his life in Biarritz so I guess you would call him Basque. He now spits at France and lives in Texas, USA. He is applying for his American citizenship in the next 2 months and doesn't care if he steps foot in France again. My ancestors were from La Rochelle, they fled France in the 1500s so they could be free to cook great spicy food.
I saw the newspaper he was reading from and it had Le Figaro on the first page in large type. What purpose would he have in making up a story he was reading to me?
It is amusing how Europe has such a hatred for a country that is populated with their former citizens. You would think Europe would act more like a proud parent than a jealous older sister.
By the way, hows your imigration policies working in France? I guess it is a good time to be a car salesperson about now.

 

[Annie]

You are obviously right, the Jewish Holocaust did take place over 60 years ago. Still a very short time.
About my friend, is he French? If you are from Paris you probably wouldn't think so. He was born and lived most of his life in Biarritz so I guess you would call him Basque. He now spits at France and lives in Texas, USA. He is applying for his American citizenship in the next 2 months and doesn't care if he steps foot in France again. My ancestors were from La Rochelle, they fled France in the 1500s so they could be free to cook great spicy food.
I saw the newspaper he was reading from and it had Le Figaro on the first page in large type. What purpose would he have in making up a story he was reading to me?
It is amusing how Europe has such a hatred for a country that is populated with their former citizens. You would think Europe would act more like a proud parent than a jealous older sister.
By the way, hows your imigration policies working in France? I guess it is a good time to be a car salesperson about now.

France is a sewer. Has been for over 100 years. The claim to fame is 'helping the revolutionaries in US against the Brits, ignoring the par† †he 30 years war played in all of it. Not for US, but for France. Can't blame them for that, but don't go looking for credit either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France#Conditions_of_armistice

Vichy France, or the Vichy regime was the de facto French government of 1940-1944 during the Nazi Germany occupation of World War II. Now known in French as the Régime de Vichy or Vichy, during its existence it referred to itself as L'État Français (The French State).

Vichy France was established after France surrendered to Germany in 1940, and took its name from the government's capital in Vichy, southeast of Paris near Clermont-Ferrand. While officially neutral in the war, it was essentially a Nazi puppet state that collaborated with the Nazis, including on the Nazis' racial policies. Initially it ruled an unoccupied zone in Southern France and some French colonies, but Nazi Germany invaded the zone under its control on November 11, 1942, in operation Case Anton.

The Vichy government's claim to be the de jure French government was challenged by the Free French Forces of Charles de Gaulle, based first in London and later in Algiers, and French governments ever since have held that the Vichy regime was an illegal government run by traitors. At the time the Vichy regime was generally acknowledged to be the recognized legal government of France — as an example, the United States sent an ambassador to Vichy.

The authoritarian Vichy France regime was headed by France's World War I hero Marshal Philippe Pétain; after the end of World War II, Pétain was convicted of treason.

To some extent, for France, the Second World War and the Vichy Regime were, in addition to a foreign war, also an internal civil war, which opposed on the one hand the Communist and Republican elements of society, and on the other hand, the reactionary elements supporting a fascist or similar regime in the mould of that of Francisco Franco's. This civil war can be seen as the continuation of a fracture that divided French society since the 19th century or even the French Revolution, illustrated by events such as the Dreyfus Affair and the riots in the 1930s (see Action Française)...god knows there is a whole lot more...

 

[sitarro]

France is a sewer. Has been for over 100 years. The claim to fame is 'helping the revolutionaries in US against the Brits, ignoring the par† †he 30 years war played in all of it. Not for US, but for France. Can't blame them for that, but don't go looking for credit either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France#Conditions_of_armistice

You are everywhere Kathianne, you amaze me.

 

[Annie]

You are everywhere Kathianne, you amaze me.

Why thank you. :blushing:

 

[IIIX]

You are obviously right, the Jewish Holocaust did take place over 60 years ago. Still a very short time.

Its perpetrators are almost all dead. As well as its victims. 60 years, 40 years, it makes a huge difference. Someone who thinks that the holocaust happened in the sixties should not give lessons based on this event of history; I think everybody can understand that.

About my friend, is he French? If you are from Paris you probably wouldn't think so. He was born and lived most of his life in Biarritz so I guess you would call him Basque.

You guess wrong. I would call him french. A minority of basques are independantists (trying to maintain the purity of the basque people, between other things -_-). The rest of Pays Basque and the rest of France see them as french and call them french.

I saw the newspaper he was reading from and it had Le Figaro on the first page in large type. What purpose would he have in making up a story he was reading to me?

Well, he obviously is as objective towards France as you are. Very biased.

It is amusing how Europe has such a hatred for a country that is populated with their former citizens. You would think Europe would act more like a proud parent than a jealous older sister.

Did you not read the end of my post? Look at yourself. Who is full of hatred, tell me? Most of europeans do not hate americans. Just read the polls.
Before you make the mistake, I warn you: "yourself" only means: you, sitarro. Most americans are not as hateful as you are.

By the way, hows your imigration policies working in France? I guess it is a good time to be a car salesperson about now.

The United States are currently facing several hot issues - just like France, just like any country. I am not mentioning these issues, because that would be trolling.

Hey, I hate 'old' Europe.

Funny, how you can criticize nazism and then proudly claim your hatred! There was a lesson to learn from the whole episode of World War II. It was not remembered - in Europe (except maybe Germany) or in the USA. But it becomes truly ridiculous when people who didn't understand anything of the moral consequencies of this war, start to blaim others based on it.

The claim to fame is 'helping the revolutionaries in US against the Brits, ignoring the par† †he 30 years war played in all of it.

You're obviously right, but you're also lying. You can't say that the french acted for their own interest whithout mentioning the interests that the USA had in helping France in both world wars.



The political orientation of this forum is obvious, and that's why I thought it would be interesting for me (being an atheist and a european). I do not have an automatically low opinion of people who not agree with me. I have a low opinion of trolls.
Maybe I'm the wrong sub-forum?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Yeah. Whatever the French say you are is what you are. Screw you if you think you're Basque. Right IIIX? So someone gets the name of a paper wrong and you think that's a victory for you? Your showing thus far is lacking.

 

[Annie]

Its perpetrators are almost all dead. As well as its victims. 60 years, 40 years, it makes a huge difference. Someone who thinks that the holocaust happened in the sixties should not give lessons based on this event of history; I think everybody can understand that.


You guess wrong. I would call him french. A minority of basques are independantists (trying to maintain the purity of the basque people, between other things -_-). The rest of Pays Basque and the rest of France see them as french and call them french.

Well, he obviously is as objective towards France as you are. Very biased.


Did you not read the end of my post? Look at yourself. Who is full of hatred, tell me? Most of europeans do not hate americans. Just read the polls.
Before you make the mistake, I warn you: "yourself" only means: you, sitarro. Most americans are not as hateful as you are.



The United States are currently facing several hot issues - just like France, just like any country. I am not mentioning these issues, because that would be trolling.





Funny, how you can criticize nazism and then proudly claim your hatred! There was a lesson to learn from the whole episode of World War II. It was not remembered - in Europe (except maybe Germany) or in the USA. But it becomes truly ridiculous when people who didn't understand anything of the moral consequencies of this war, start to blaim others based on it.



You're obviously right, but you're also lying. You can't say that the french acted for their own interest whithout mentioning the interests that the USA had in helping France in both world wars.



The political orientation of this forum is obvious, and that's why I thought it would be interesting for me (being an atheist and a european). I do not have an automatically low opinion of people who not agree with me. I have a low opinion of trolls.
Maybe I'm the wrong sub-forum?

Yeah, I'm right and biased. France in general sucks. We and I will assume from your post agree with me, are enemies.

 

[IIIX]

Yeah. Whatever the French say you are is what you are. Screw you if you think you're Basque. Right IIIX? So someone gets the name of a paper wrong and you think that's a victory for you? Your showing thus far is lacking.

Apparently, the name of the paper was right, it's the interpretation that was unintelligent.

It is possible to be both Basque and French. Just like many people are both from New York and from the USA... that's not very complicated. I was told that I would not accept him as a french person because of the region he comes from.

I said I would accept him as french. That's what his papers say, too. In any case, if he rejects the french nationality, well, is that of my concern? I won't call him a real frenchman if he doesn't see himself as such. It wasn't the point.

You understand now?

We and I will assume from your post agree with me, are enemies

It doesn't make much sense to me :/

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Apparently, the name of the paper was right, it's the interpretation that was unintelligent.

It is possible to be both Basque and French. Just like many people are both from New York and from the USA... that's not very complicated. I was told that I would not accept him as a french person because of the region he comes from.

I said I would accept him as french. That's what his papers say, too. In any case, if he rejects the french nationality, well, is that of my concern? I won't call him a real frenchman if he doesn't see himself as such. It wasn't the point.

You understand now?



It doesn't make much sense to me :/

I didn't see you doing anything but quibbling over the names of things. Typical braindead, Eurocentrist, self hating, buttsnatcher.

 

[IIIX]

I didn't see you doing anything but quibbling over the names of things.

Actually, I was accused of not recognizing the nationality of someone. If anyone is quibbling over names, it is the person who accused me... and you of course: you're the one making a big issue of the nationality of this guy.

Typical braindead, Eurocentrist, self hating, buttsnatcher.

Impressive.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Actually, I was accused of not recognizing the nationality of someone. If anyone is quibbling over names, it is the person who accused me... and you of course: you're the one making a big issue of the nationality of this guy.




Impressive.

How can you have any pudding if you can't eat your meat? :soul:

 

[sitarro]

Its perpetrators are almost all dead. As well as its victims. 60 years, 40 years, it makes a huge difference. Someone who thinks that the holocaust happened in the sixties should not give lessons based on this event of history; I think everybody can understand that.

Look Pierre, I admitted that I had the date wrong, I know when WW2 happened. I hit the 6 key instead of the 4 so sue me. My father was 19 when he would fly missions in his small fighter protecting the B-17s on their way to Germany. I know about the war, he told mr about it, he was there.

You guess wrong. I would call him french. A minority of basques are independantists (trying to maintain the purity of the basque people, between other things -_-). The rest of Pays Basque and the rest of France see them as french and call them french.

It was he that told me of the wishes of his people to be independent and free from France. France doesn't want to lose the income from the Basque region, it doesn't take an economist to understand that.
Your comrads at the De Gaulle airport in Paris made him strip to search him as he left France, I guess they didn't want him to smuggle any soft smelly cheese out of France. They also refused to speak to him in French in a lame attempt to insult him. Of course he doesn't want to return, he hates the socialism that is France. He has had a taste of freedom in America and loves it and doesn't want to return.

Did you not read the end of my post? Look at yourself. Who is full of hatred, tell me? Most of europeans do not hate americans. Just read the polls.
Before you make the mistake, I warn you: "yourself" only means: you, sitarro. Most americans are not as hateful as you are.

I have no hatred for the people of France, it is your lack of freedom and the horrible propaganda your press feeds you to keep you in the dark that I hate. You claim that we are the ones that have no access to the truth, could you really be that ignorant?

The United States are currently facing several hot issues - just like France, just like any country. I am not mentioning these issues, because that would be trolling.

You have no knowledge about the United States, you only parrot what your press tells you and think that we are the ignorant ones, I feel pity for you not hate.

Funny, how you can criticize nazism and then proudly claim your hatred! There was a lesson to learn from the whole episode of World War II. It was not remembered - in Europe (except maybe Germany) or in the USA. But it becomes truly ridiculous when people who didn't understand anything of the moral consequencies of this war, start to blaim others based on it.

It is obvious that it is you who doesn't understand.

The political orientation of this forum is obvious, and that's why I thought it would be interesting for me (being an atheist and a european). I do not have an automatically low opinion of people who not agree with me. I have a low opinion of trolls.
Maybe I'm the wrong sub-forum?

It is you who as an atheist that doesn't have a clue. Do you honestly believe that the incredible wonders of this planet are just an accident? Do you think that the beauty that is nature is just an accident? How very sad for you to be so naive. Open your eyes and really try to see what is around you. Good luck.