Even if Biden wins, it doesn’t matter.

[Harry Dresden]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

There's is a huge cultural divide in the U.S.

Back in the early 1900s it was the KKK vs. the mafia. The pro-Prohibition conservatives vs. the pro-alcohol liberals. Liberals and conservatives were in both the Republican party and the Democratic party. Those parties were more management vs. labor.

Somehow WWII united the American people.

But after WWII the conservatives dropped all American values and became dedicated capitalists. The idea was if the USSR was socialist, we had to be the opposite of that which meant we were capitalists.

Then came the generation gap and counter culture of the 1960s. That grew into the liberal social values movement, which is the basis of today's Democratic party. They have lost their position as champions of working Americans.

Meanwhile the capitalists, mobsters and 'cowboys' have joined together to form a new conservative culture based (supposedly) on Conservative social values, but really primarily support the wealthy capitalists. It's the mobster & salesmanship (i.e. capitalist) culture that is responsible for the conservative's willingness to outright lie. They have no integrity and they couldn't care less.

Basically, liberals have been losing since they abandoned working families and became the champions of liberal social values. Conservatives have been winning since they became champions of conservative social values. - mixed with mobster and 'cowboy' culture.

I don't see anyway of reconciling this divide, other than on a very personal basis, liberals have to convince 'Conservatives' that they are being complete assholes and are full of shit on just about every subject. This fight has to take place in every family and at every dinner table.

So your plan is to throw tantrums?

No, my plan is for the sane, intelligent people to make it cleat to the supporters of President Shit-for-Brains that they are idiots and assholes and that we've had enough of their BULLSHIT.

seems like you just threw a tantrum.....

Seems like you have no intelligent response, so you're trying to taunt me. If you got nothing to say, do us all a favor and don't post anything.

you should take your own advice richey.....you very seldom have any thing to say....

 

[excalibur]

Under Trump, Americans Have Seen Their Best Wage Growth In 40 Years

More than any other president in 40 years, Donald Trump has benefited working-class Americans, especially African Americans.

thefederalist.com

 

[P@triot]

People with 'Class' don't lie constantly, deny reality, grossly exaggerate or propagate fake news. Nor do they come to peaceful demonstrations armed with clubs and guns to intimidate their opponents.

They don't run over young women with cars, gun down people in the middle of church services...

Exactly. We agree. And conservatives didn’t do any of that. That was all done by the fascist left.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

REAL liberals and "conservatives" should not be ideologically far apart.

It's the fake liberal commies and the neocons fucking up the works.

Ask yourself if you are a real liberal (you may have been at some point but probably lost your way).

 

[Coyote]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

REAL liberals and "conservatives" should not be ideologically far apart.

It's the fake liberal commies and the neocons fucking up the works.

Ask yourself if you are a real liberal (you may have been at some point but probably lost your way).

I have no idea what my proper label is, except left of center on some issues, center on others. There are so many labels being thrown around Bootney. What I DO think is many Trump supporters don't seem like real conservatives. They are overseeing an active erosion of state's rights for example in a way that shocks me coming from the Republicans.

 

[Coyote]

People with 'Class' don't lie constantly, deny reality, grossly exaggerate or propagate fake news. Nor do they come to peaceful demonstrations armed with clubs and guns to intimidate their opponents.

They don't run over young women with cars, gun down people in the middle of church services...

Exactly. We agree. And conservatives didn’t do any of that. That was all done by the fascist left.

No...it wasn't.

 

[bendog]

People with 'Class' don't lie constantly, deny reality, grossly exaggerate or propagate fake news. Nor do they come to peaceful demonstrations armed with clubs and guns to intimidate their opponents.

They don't run over young women with cars, gun down people in the middle of church services...

Exactly. We agree. And conservatives didn’t do any of that. That was all done by the fascist left.

No...it wasn't.

I'm not sure that Biden's win is meaningless. It may be America's last gasp at governing as the Founders assumed they would: reasonable "land owning men" unified by a vision of government's legitimacy based upon consent of the electorate to be governed through representative elections. We've really had very few instances and eras of one party having full power. The Civil War and it's aftermath, the New Deal …. even the gop domination of the early 20th century was not absolute, and never happened in the South, and even then it began as a progressive movement under TR and ended with the party being a literally a tool of corporations, as Coolidge literally put it.

The Freedom Caucus is irrelevant so long as Pelosi keeps power. McConnell may see that he has to get at least 55% in any compromise with Biden, despite Biden having won a pretty convincing election, and McConnell actually LOSING a seat even though he was handed a win by Ala. But McConnell is facing an even bigger electoral task in 22 than he dodged in 20.

 

[Coyote]

People with 'Class' don't lie constantly, deny reality, grossly exaggerate or propagate fake news. Nor do they come to peaceful demonstrations armed with clubs and guns to intimidate their opponents.

They don't run over young women with cars, gun down people in the middle of church services...

Exactly. We agree. And conservatives didn’t do any of that. That was all done by the fascist left.

No...it wasn't.

I'm not sure that Biden's win is meaningless. It may be America's last gasp at governing as the Founders assumed they would: reasonable "land owning men" unified by a vision of government's legitimacy based upon consent of the electorate to be governed through representative elections. We've really had very few instances and eras of one party having full power. The Civil War and it's aftermath, the New Deal …. even the gop domination of the early 20th century was not absolute, and never happened in the South, and even then it began as a progressive movement under TR and ended with the party being a literally a tool of corporations, as Coolidge literally put it.

The Freedom Caucus is irrelevant so long as Pelosi keeps power. McConnell may see that he has to get at least 55% in any compromise with Biden, despite Biden having won a pretty convincing election, and McConnell actually LOSING a seat even though he was handed a win by Ala. But McConnell is facing an even bigger electoral task in 22 than he dodged in 20.

Good points...I've kind of revised some of my discouragement. In some ways - NOT having the Senate is a blessing. It puts the temptation of adding SCOTUS justices off the table, and that is a good thing.

 

[P@triot]

In some ways - NOT having the Senate is a blessing. It puts the temptation of adding SCOTUS justices off the table, and that is a good thing.

Amen! Absolutely nothing good could come from that.

 

[P@triot]

Exactly. We agree. And conservatives didn’t do any of that. That was all done by the fascist left.

No...it wasn't.

Coyote...come on. Don't play this silly game. The left was violently assaulting anyone wearing a red hat or attending a Trump rally. They even got the Chicago rally in 2016 shut down. That is unbelievable that a man running for President was prevented from holding a legal and proper rally because of the fascism of the left in 2016 America.

They also overthrew cities and setup "autonomous zones".

 

[bendog]

Imo not having 51 votes in the Senate also removes pressure from Biden to push anything through that would make gas in cars or elec/gas in homes more expensive.

But I was just trying to say that if we have reached a point in America that the only was to govern by passing laws to do things like have clean air and water, or to have some access to healthcare, is to control the WH and both Houses of Congress …. then imo the experiment of 1787 has failed.

 

[task0778]

It puts the temptation of adding SCOTUS justices off the table, and that is a good thing.

Not to mention the temptation to abolish the filibuster, which IMHO would have REALLY fundamentally changed our gov't. Compromise and cooperation wouldn't exist any more, like in the House where the minority party has no power at all. And nothing good would come from that either.

 

[bendog]

Exactly. We agree. And conservatives didn’t do any of that. That was all done by the fascist left.

No...it wasn't.

Coyote...come on. Don't play this silly game. The left was violently assaulting anyone wearing a red hat or attending a Trump rally. They even got the Chicago rally in 2016 shut down. That is unbelievable that a man running for President was prevented from holding a legal and proper rally because of the fascism of the left in 2016 America.

They also overthrew cities and setup "autonomous zones".

At best, there were "good people" on both sides. And that's ignoring Lafayette Park and St. Johns.

 

[bendog]

It puts the temptation of adding SCOTUS justices off the table, and that is a good thing.

Not to mention the temptation to abolish the filibuster, which IMHO would have REALLY fundamentally changed our gov't. Compromise and cooperation wouldn't exist any more, like in the House where the minority party has no power at all. And nothing good would come from that either.

But McConnell literally refused to confirm Obama Justices after Sonmayor. And that was even before Garland. Both sides will have to step back.

 

[task0778]

What I DO think is many Trump supporters don't seem like real conservatives. They are overseeing an active erosion of state's rights for example in a way that shocks me coming from the Republicans.

They are? I was under the impression that state's rights have been eroding for quite some time now, a lot further back than Trump's term in office.

 

[P@triot]

Exactly. We agree. And conservatives didn’t do any of that. That was all done by the fascist left.

No...it wasn't

The left is still doing it Coyote, even after “winning” the election.

Antifa militants gang up on Trump fans, pummel women to ground â and pro-Trump group responds by singing national anthem

Decidedly stark contrasts

www.theblaze.com

 

[LA RAM FAN]

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

There is something very seriously wrong with you.
Reality conflicts and negates every single thing you mutter.

the UNDERSTATEMENT of the YEAR.lol

 

[Godboy]

The gulf is too wide between the ideologies.

The moderates see the the right as far more sane than the left.

 

[Zorro!]

You DO realize, don't you, that if they over turn RvW, it will be AGAINST the will of the people? Unelected (rightwing) judges/justices.

The “people“ you refer to are deceased, fictitious, ex-convicts and/or illegal aliens

Nice try.

7 out of 10 oppose overturning Roe.

Casey vs PP is the current controlling precedent and it's not in danger.

The Deep State might be though

 

[candycorn]

What this election has told us, in multiple ways, is that our country has fundamentally changed and that breaks my heart.

The Republicans are entrenched. They are likely to retain control of the senate, added to their House, and retained state legislatures. They have the courts. They will control redistricting after the census and we can expect continued gerrymandering to further marginalize Democrat voting blocks, leading to more districts where a minority of the voters controls a majority of the seats. Not unique to Republicans, but increasingly utilized by them.

The Democrats have still, somehow missed the mark. Again. They can’t seem to get a message to the people that unifies. Maybe this is because Biden is not strong candidate, and Trump carries the power of the incumbency into the election. There are some bright spots, retaining seats in Texas, tight margins in some key red states.

If Trump wins, I see a further dismantling of our nation’s democratic infrastructure and a continued decline in our image and effectiveness abroad. I see complete politicization of our departments, from tiny VOA to DoJ, and entire civil service where personal loyalty is demanded over competency and professionalism. When Trump talks about reorganizing military leadership, is he attempting to politicize the military? I do not think this is hyperbole. We have been seeing this trend for four years, E.O. after E.O.

If Trump wins, and continues his assault on long established unwritten rules of behavior and social norms what will we see coming out of this? When society agrees to an unwritten set of norms and our leaders hold to it, our institutions function smoothly even with bumps and potholes. But when those potholes become so extreme they threaten the structure and people can no longer navigate, we are forced to create laws or rules we never thought would be needed. Example: media resorting to fact checking, because the volume of disinformation and political lies exceeds the ability of our society to handle, and it is coming from our leadership. I fear, if Trump is re-elected further attacks on truth, on facts, and on genuine journalism.

But Trump doesn’t need to win for this. It is already rolling down on us. If Biden wins, a huge segment of America voted for Trump. Huge! And that is dismaying and unsettling, to me, because I see this election as not about which candidate to elect, but as who we are as a country and who we want to be going forward.

If Biden wins, what, at best will happen? A rollback of EO’s? Competent people making decisions? Rebuilding the integrity and professionalism of our battered institutions: DoJ, State Department, EPA, CDC, VOA,....

If Trump wins, there is nothing to stop him from using his offfice to go after his “enemies“, every person who has ever criticized, spoken up, or gone against him and firing those who won’t do it. I think this, coming from the top of our leadership, is an existential crisis. If Biden wins....maybe the Republicans can create a better party, without Trump.

I read, somewhere, that an alarming number of people no longer feel democratic principles are so important, and that a strong (authoritarian) leader might even be preferred to the messiness and uncertainties of democratic systems. I'm trying to find links to this, because I wonder if it plays into sentiments driving our country today.

Trump won 2016 by very narrow margins. 2020 will be the same, who ever wins. Will the people win?

This too shall pass.

watch.

In 2024 the blobbers will put their arms around some swamp creature who has a better relationship with the truth.