Eviscerating 'The Roosevelt Alibi'

[Correll]

Oh, so you are aware of actions he took to in to effect that Post War Balance of Power?

SO, share with us. What was the best one?

Atomic Bomb

The US monopoly on the Bomb lasted FOUR YEARS.

Leverage. I said leverage.

The Soviets were the ones in direct trouble with millions of genocidal invaders in their homeland killing their people.

The Americans were the ones who were in a position to help them.

This should have resulted in FDR having enormous leverage over Stalin.

Looking at history I see no sign that FDR ever attempted to use that to the advantage of the US.

When the Germans surrendered, and we met Russian troops on the Elbe River, FDR was dead.

It was the carving up of Europe, and the Nuremberg trials that got Stalin's dander up. American intelligence and the diplomatic corp had little time to devote to policing Stalin's horrific human rights record during the final days of the war.

In post war Europe, the Americans were demobilizing, and heading out as quick as they could to continue fighting the Japanese on the opposite side of the world. What kind of moron would have stayed to fight a country that just took a great deal of heat off of the UK, France, and the USA? When you understand the period, it becomes painfully simple how unfounded your observations are

Got "Stalin's dander up"?

Stalin was a warmonger conquering his neighbors before WWII.

It wasn't the Nuremberg trials that made him an expansionist.

And I've been asking about the use of the leverage that the US had over the SU.

Pretending the only possible policy choices were giving Stalin a completely free hand or War is a false choice.

You position is rank with things that never happened, false or misleading conclusions, or baselss premises.

It's really hard to figure where to begin unwinding all of them

My position is that FDR did not have any policies to address the Post War balance of power.

The promise he got from Stalin was obviously worthless.

Perhaps he had some foolish dreams of the UN ending war...

YOu want to unwind that? Explain to me why he didn't care about the Post War scenario. Explain to me why he though it would be fine. Or explain to me what he did to limit Soviet expansion that I missed or didn't understand.

FDR never saw the final determining card for the end of WWII. He suspected what it was, but could not know for sure how it would play and what impacts it would have. The card was not revealed until July 16, three months after his death.

The final card was dealt long before he died. Yalta drew the lines for the Cold War.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Well, that's a start. Remember that Stalin is the monster that started the war as an ally of Hitler. Know that he will hold and oppress whatever territory he gains.

Why?. Give them co-belligerence status, not allied.

Foolish, because Churchill was yelling for them to get it as well as Stalin. And no truce between Hitler and Stalin was not a guarantee. If there had been one, we never would have invaded Normandy. No Lend Lease. Let the Red Army grind on, the slower the better. If it reverses? NOt a problem. As long as the fighting continues Hitler is fighting a two front war.

That is what we did. That is what FDR would have done. Plan for D-Day when US and UK forces are ready. If the A-Bomb comes on line before hand, use it to end war.

Hitler would have to go and the top brass would have to submit to penalties that we have no idea to which they would accept. At some point negotiate a surrender with German Army that includes intensive de-nazification.

No, the further East, the better off the allies. THe further west the Red Army line of control the better for the post war situation.

Yep, there would be. Who knows, maybe there won't be a Cold War at all.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Well, that's a start. Remember that Stalin is the monster that started the war as an ally of Hitler. Know that he will hold and oppress whatever territory he gains.

Why?. Give them co-belligerence status, not allied.

Foolish, because Churchill was yelling for them to get it as well as Stalin. And no truce between Hitler and Stalin was not a guarantee. If there had been one, we never would have invaded Normandy. No Lend Lease. Let the Red Army grind on, the slower the better. If it reverses? NOt a problem. As long as the fighting continues Hitler is fighting a two front war.

That is what we did. That is what FDR would have done. Plan for D-Day when US and UK forces are ready. If the A-Bomb comes on line before hand, use it to end war.

Hitler would have to go and the top brass would have to submit to penalties that we have no idea to which they would accept. At some point negotiate a surrender with German Army that includes intensive de-nazification.

No, the further East, the better off the allies. THe further west the Red Army line of control the better for the post war situation.

Yep, there would be. Who knows, maybe there won't be a Cold War at all.

Good effort. Now show us with evidence that FDR etc did not try to do any or all of or some of those things.

 

[Camp]

Atomic Bomb

The US monopoly on the Bomb lasted FOUR YEARS.

When the Germans surrendered, and we met Russian troops on the Elbe River, FDR was dead.

It was the carving up of Europe, and the Nuremberg trials that got Stalin's dander up. American intelligence and the diplomatic corp had little time to devote to policing Stalin's horrific human rights record during the final days of the war.

In post war Europe, the Americans were demobilizing, and heading out as quick as they could to continue fighting the Japanese on the opposite side of the world. What kind of moron would have stayed to fight a country that just took a great deal of heat off of the UK, France, and the USA? When you understand the period, it becomes painfully simple how unfounded your observations are

Got "Stalin's dander up"?

Stalin was a warmonger conquering his neighbors before WWII.

It wasn't the Nuremberg trials that made him an expansionist.

And I've been asking about the use of the leverage that the US had over the SU.

Pretending the only possible policy choices were giving Stalin a completely free hand or War is a false choice.

You position is rank with things that never happened, false or misleading conclusions, or baselss premises.

It's really hard to figure where to begin unwinding all of them

My position is that FDR did not have any policies to address the Post War balance of power.

The promise he got from Stalin was obviously worthless.

Perhaps he had some foolish dreams of the UN ending war...

YOu want to unwind that? Explain to me why he didn't care about the Post War scenario. Explain to me why he though it would be fine. Or explain to me what he did to limit Soviet expansion that I missed or didn't understand.

FDR never saw the final determining card for the end of WWII. He suspected what it was, but could not know for sure how it would play and what impacts it would have. The card was not revealed until July 16, three months after his death.

The final card was dealt long before he died. Yalta drew the lines for the Cold War.

Those lines could have been voided when free elections were refused, particularly in Poland and Czechoslovakia. Stalin would have been forced into a choice of giving up some of the spoils or risk confrontation with the atomic bomb armed US. July 16 was the date of the first bomb test to confirm it would work. FDR died before that test and never knew for certainty that the weapon would be available.

 

[Correll]

Well, that's a start. Remember that Stalin is the monster that started the war as an ally of Hitler. Know that he will hold and oppress whatever territory he gains.

Why?. Give them co-belligerence status, not allied.

Foolish, because Churchill was yelling for them to get it as well as Stalin. And no truce between Hitler and Stalin was not a guarantee. If there had been one, we never would have invaded Normandy. No Lend Lease. Let the Red Army grind on, the slower the better. If it reverses? NOt a problem. As long as the fighting continues Hitler is fighting a two front war.

That is what we did. That is what FDR would have done. Plan for D-Day when US and UK forces are ready. If the A-Bomb comes on line before hand, use it to end war.

Hitler would have to go and the top brass would have to submit to penalties that we have no idea to which they would accept. At some point negotiate a surrender with German Army that includes intensive de-nazification.

No, the further East, the better off the allies. THe further west the Red Army line of control the better for the post war situation.

Yep, there would be. Who knows, maybe there won't be a Cold War at all.

A truce between Stalin and Hitler is obviously a temporary cease fire. Hitler could NOT move his Eastern Forces West, he would have to keep them there to protect his eastern border.

All that does is delay the date for D-Day and guarantee that the war will end with the use of Nukes on German targets and a post war situation where the Soviets do NOT have a half of EUrope under arms.


No D-Day, no slog though France and Germany for US and allied forces.

 

[Correll]

The US monopoly on the Bomb lasted FOUR YEARS.

Got "Stalin's dander up"?

Stalin was a warmonger conquering his neighbors before WWII.

It wasn't the Nuremberg trials that made him an expansionist.

And I've been asking about the use of the leverage that the US had over the SU.

Pretending the only possible policy choices were giving Stalin a completely free hand or War is a false choice.

You position is rank with things that never happened, false or misleading conclusions, or baselss premises.

It's really hard to figure where to begin unwinding all of them

My position is that FDR did not have any policies to address the Post War balance of power.

The promise he got from Stalin was obviously worthless.

Perhaps he had some foolish dreams of the UN ending war...

YOu want to unwind that? Explain to me why he didn't care about the Post War scenario. Explain to me why he though it would be fine. Or explain to me what he did to limit Soviet expansion that I missed or didn't understand.

FDR never saw the final determining card for the end of WWII. He suspected what it was, but could not know for sure how it would play and what impacts it would have. The card was not revealed until July 16, three months after his death.

The final card was dealt long before he died. Yalta drew the lines for the Cold War.

Those lines could have been voided when free elections were refused, particularly in Poland and Czechoslovakia. Stalin would have been forced into a choice of giving up some of the spoils or risk confrontation with the atomic bomb armed US. July 16 was the date of the first bomb test to confirm it would work. FDR died before that test and never knew for certainty that the weapon would be available.

Voided by who? THe US? That would take a horrible war. That no US president would willingly start.

 

[rightwinger]

Do you know what you're doing?

What you are doing, is simply blaming every mistake FDR ever made, and any unintended negative consequence that came out of a global conflict, squarely on FDR...just exactly like the GOP does today with Obama. And why not, the same GOP strategy organizations came up with all these revisions of history, dictate the campaigns against Democrats today. What you're saying is not being said by historians or journalists, it's being contrived by political consultants with communications degrees hire by the GOP.

Look at what you wrote again.

You blamed Vietnam on FDR.

Vietnam played out the way it did because of French reluctance to admit their colonial claims to the region were not viable post war. Then Eisenhower, and then Kennedy.

The Cold War grew out of the end of WWII.

Looking back I can see no evidence that FDR gave any thought to the post war balance of power.


Presidents are supposed to think ahead.

He did think ahead.

He thought of a world free of the Axis-powers. And his deeds led to exactly that happening.

What did you want from him, you fool, a 100 year plan?

100 year plan? THat's a strawman.

There is no evidence from his actions that FDR thought beyond the end of the war.

THat is a failing on his part.

What actions did you expect for the end of the war and how do you think FDR could have acheived them?

Remember that Stalin is the monster that started the war as an ally of Hitler. Know that he will hold and oppress whatever territory he gains.

Give them co-belligerence status, not allied.

No Lend Lease. Let the Red Army grind on, the slower the better. If it reverses? NOt a problem. As long as the fighting continues Hitler is fighting a two front war.


Plan for D-Day when US and UK forces are ready. If the A-Bomb comes on line before hand, use it to end war.

At some point negotiate a surrender with German Army that includes intensive de-nazification.

THe further west the Red Army line of control the better for the post war situation.

Who knows, maybe there won't be a Cold War at all.

OK...thanks for providing some details

Stalin was a prick...that is a given
Hitler came within a hair of a breakthrough and could easily have won. The alternative of a Nazi held Europe is far worse than any Cold War. Denying needed supplies could have led to that victory
I like FDRs resolution of a Cold War that lasted 45 years without casualties over your solution of a nuclear war
Hitler was unwilling to surrender under any conditions. Even though it cost his country hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths. He was not looking for a way out

 

[irosie91]

It does no such thing.

There is no mention, even peripherally, of the Holocaust.

While Stalin killed over 20 million of his own people....Hitler was not far behind.

Only a psychotic would doubt the Holocaust.

There was no plan to exterminate the Jews except the ones left needed to be locked up and put in labor camps due to most were soviet communist. and would pose a danger to Germany. Of course many were involved in Partisan groups and did much damage as can be. No gas camps , and no preplanned extermination plan.

Many died do to typhus, starvation, fighting and of course at the hands of some brutal Germans and Soviets, but only a fool would think the German has a plan for mass extermination of the Jews. Are you aware many jews were also criminals and needed to be locked up as well. Jew Communism was alive and well in Poland.

And you are even more clinically insane than PC, you jew-hating piece of shit.

I can see this thread is very irritating to you, I know how dare us question the events of WWII. Some people have spent time in prison for it, but today we have freedom of speech, in the USA anyway.

Tough fuck for you, you disgusting jew hater.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9515 mit Tapatalk

Has not a thing to do with hating anyone , its just history, history you do not like apparently. Since most Ashkenazi's are not Semitic or Hebrew, see the problem here. Your Japhetites. That should make you real mad.

I am always fascinated when whores comment on books they never read. Whores are very self-conscious in reference to their illiteracy

 

[JakeStarkey]

Well, that's a start. Remember that Stalin is the monster that started the war as an ally of Hitler. Know that he will hold and oppress whatever territory he gains.

Why?. Give them co-belligerence status, not allied.

Foolish, because Churchill was yelling for them to get it as well as Stalin. And no truce between Hitler and Stalin was not a guarantee. If there had been one, we never would have invaded Normandy. No Lend Lease. Let the Red Army grind on, the slower the better. If it reverses? NOt a problem. As long as the fighting continues Hitler is fighting a two front war.

That is what we did. That is what FDR would have done. Plan for D-Day when US and UK forces are ready. If the A-Bomb comes on line before hand, use it to end war.

Hitler would have to go and the top brass would have to submit to penalties that we have no idea to which they would accept. At some point negotiate a surrender with German Army that includes intensive de-nazification.

No, the further East, the better off the allies. THe further west the Red Army line of control the better for the post war situation.

Yep, there would be. Who knows, maybe there won't be a Cold War at all.[/QUOTE]

Not at all, and Hitler certainly would have brought forces West. A truce between Stalin and Hitler is obviously a temporary cease fire. Hitler could NOT move his Eastern Forces West, he would have to keep them there to protect his eastern border.

You are engaged in present-ism, hindsight now that was not evident at all back then. Nothing you have offered changes what did happen. All that does is delay the date for D-Day and guarantee that the war will end with the use of Nukes on German targets and a post war situation where the Soviets do NOT have a half of Europe under arms.

Not at all. Nothing you have offered is any demonstration of would have happened. You cannot use what we know now, only what was known then. No D-Day, no slog though France and Germany for US and allied forces.

 

[JakeStarkey]

A nuclear war would have been worse than a cold war.

Europe under Hitler was worse than half of Europe under the USSR.

 

[Correll]

The Cold War grew out of the end of WWII.

Looking back I can see no evidence that FDR gave any thought to the post war balance of power.


Presidents are supposed to think ahead.

He did think ahead.

He thought of a world free of the Axis-powers. And his deeds led to exactly that happening.

What did you want from him, you fool, a 100 year plan?

100 year plan? THat's a strawman.

There is no evidence from his actions that FDR thought beyond the end of the war.

THat is a failing on his part.

What actions did you expect for the end of the war and how do you think FDR could have acheived them?

Remember that Stalin is the monster that started the war as an ally of Hitler. Know that he will hold and oppress whatever territory he gains.

Give them co-belligerence status, not allied.

No Lend Lease. Let the Red Army grind on, the slower the better. If it reverses? NOt a problem. As long as the fighting continues Hitler is fighting a two front war.


Plan for D-Day when US and UK forces are ready. If the A-Bomb comes on line before hand, use it to end war.

At some point negotiate a surrender with German Army that includes intensive de-nazification.

THe further west the Red Army line of control the better for the post war situation.

Who knows, maybe there won't be a Cold War at all.

OK...thanks for providing some details

Stalin was a prick...that is a given
Hitler came within a hair of a breakthrough and could easily have won. The alternative of a Nazi held Europe is far worse than any Cold War. Denying needed supplies could have led to that victory
I like FDRs resolution of a Cold War that lasted 45 years without casualties over your solution of a nuclear war
Hitler was unwilling to surrender under any conditions. Even though it cost his country hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths. He was not looking for a way out

By the time the US entered the War, the Naiz onslaught in Russia had already been turned around.

HItler could have won, if the Soviets had done a little worse in the summer/fall of 41.

After that, it was very unlikely.

Hitler had to go, as did all high level Nazis.

With US air superiority and/or the Atomic Bomb on the table, IMO the German Army might have been willing to take care of that.

20 July plot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

If not...

Then yes, then D-Day or Nuclear bombardment.

 

[Correll]

A nuclear war would have been worse than a cold war.

Europe under Hitler was worse than half of Europe under the USSR.

I don't know that a nuclear end to WWII Europe would not have been worse than the toll from the all the fighting and bombing that took place instead.

As it was Germany was reduced to rubble with 7 million dead.

 

[rightwinger]

He did think ahead.

He thought of a world free of the Axis-powers. And his deeds led to exactly that happening.

What did you want from him, you fool, a 100 year plan?

100 year plan? THat's a strawman.

There is no evidence from his actions that FDR thought beyond the end of the war.

THat is a failing on his part.

What actions did you expect for the end of the war and how do you think FDR could have acheived them?

Remember that Stalin is the monster that started the war as an ally of Hitler. Know that he will hold and oppress whatever territory he gains.

Give them co-belligerence status, not allied.

No Lend Lease. Let the Red Army grind on, the slower the better. If it reverses? NOt a problem. As long as the fighting continues Hitler is fighting a two front war.


Plan for D-Day when US and UK forces are ready. If the A-Bomb comes on line before hand, use it to end war.

At some point negotiate a surrender with German Army that includes intensive de-nazification.

THe further west the Red Army line of control the better for the post war situation.

Who knows, maybe there won't be a Cold War at all.

OK...thanks for providing some details

Stalin was a prick...that is a given
Hitler came within a hair of a breakthrough and could easily have won. The alternative of a Nazi held Europe is far worse than any Cold War. Denying needed supplies could have led to that victory
I like FDRs resolution of a Cold War that lasted 45 years without casualties over your solution of a nuclear war
Hitler was unwilling to surrender under any conditions. Even though it cost his country hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths. He was not looking for a way out

By the time the US entered the War, the Naiz onslaught in Russia had already been turned around.

HItler could have won, if the Soviets had done a little worse in the summer/fall of 41.

After that, it was very unlikely.

Hitler had to go, as did all high level Nazis.

With US air superiority and/or the Atomic Bomb on the table, IMO the German Army might have been willing to take care of that.

20 July plot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

If not...

Then yes, then D-Day or Nuclear bombardment.

How is nuclear war preferable to Cold War?

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am combining many answers to two of Correll's posts. It's easier for continuity.

Only for 1941. The Nazis would launch great offensives in 1942 and 1943. By the time the US entered the War, the Naiz onslaught in Russia had already been turned around.

But he did not. HItler could have won, if the Soviets had done a little worse in the summer/fall of 41. After that, it was very unlikely.

Who would make him? Those who tried, died. Hitler had to go, as did all high level Nazis.

But . . . there was no atomic bomb before July 1945. With US air superiority and/or the Atomic Bomb on the table, IMO the German Army might have been willing to take care of that.

But . . . there was no atomic bomb before July 1945. I don't know that a nuclear end to WWII Europe would not have been worse than the toll from the all the fighting and bombing that took place instead.

This is true. As it was Germany was reduced to rubble with 7 million dead.

 

[Correll]

100 year plan? THat's a strawman.

There is no evidence from his actions that FDR thought beyond the end of the war.

THat is a failing on his part.

What actions did you expect for the end of the war and how do you think FDR could have acheived them?

Remember that Stalin is the monster that started the war as an ally of Hitler. Know that he will hold and oppress whatever territory he gains.

Give them co-belligerence status, not allied.

No Lend Lease. Let the Red Army grind on, the slower the better. If it reverses? NOt a problem. As long as the fighting continues Hitler is fighting a two front war.


Plan for D-Day when US and UK forces are ready. If the A-Bomb comes on line before hand, use it to end war.

At some point negotiate a surrender with German Army that includes intensive de-nazification.

THe further west the Red Army line of control the better for the post war situation.

Who knows, maybe there won't be a Cold War at all.

OK...thanks for providing some details

Stalin was a prick...that is a given
Hitler came within a hair of a breakthrough and could easily have won. The alternative of a Nazi held Europe is far worse than any Cold War. Denying needed supplies could have led to that victory
I like FDRs resolution of a Cold War that lasted 45 years without casualties over your solution of a nuclear war
Hitler was unwilling to surrender under any conditions. Even though it cost his country hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths. He was not looking for a way out

By the time the US entered the War, the Naiz onslaught in Russia had already been turned around.

HItler could have won, if the Soviets had done a little worse in the summer/fall of 41.

After that, it was very unlikely.

Hitler had to go, as did all high level Nazis.

With US air superiority and/or the Atomic Bomb on the table, IMO the German Army might have been willing to take care of that.

20 July plot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

If not...

Then yes, then D-Day or Nuclear bombardment.

How is nuclear war preferable to Cold War?

Because of less loss of life (especially American) and half the continent not being under communist oppression and the whole world not being on the edge of a nuclear holocaust for the next 50 years.

 

[Penelope]

As soon as Hitler took office the Jews declared war on Germany. The war started in 1933 by the Jews. (yes the innocent jews).

 

[Correll]

I am combining many answers to two of Correll's posts. It's easier for continuity.

Only for 1941. The Nazis would launch great offensives in 1942 and 1943. By the time the US entered the War, the Naiz onslaught in Russia had already been turned around.

But he did not. HItler could have won, if the Soviets had done a little worse in the summer/fall of 41. After that, it was very unlikely.

Who would make him? Those who tried, died. Hitler had to go, as did all high level Nazis.

But . . . there was no atomic bomb before July 1945. With US air superiority and/or the Atomic Bomb on the table, IMO the German Army might have been willing to take care of that.

But . . . there was no atomic bomb before July 1945. I don't know that a nuclear end to WWII Europe would not have been worse than the toll from the all the fighting and bombing that took place instead.

This is true. As it was Germany was reduced to rubble with 7 million dead.

IF the US was not wedded to unconditional surrender, the German HIgh Command would have had far more motive to turn on Hitler than in the actual history, in which they tried pretty hard as it was.

In the speculative scenario of a soviet nazi truce that RW put forth, I assumed a delayed D-Day.

 

[Correll]

As soon as Hitler took office the Jews declared war on Germany. The war started in 1933 by the Jews. (yes the innocent jews).

Crazy talk.

 

[JakeStarkey]

As soon as Hitler took office the Jews declared war on Germany. The war started in 1933 by the Jews. (yes the innocent jews).

Yes, you are right, the Jews were innocent.

 

[toxicmedia]

What actions did you expect for the end of the war and how do you think FDR could have acheived them?

Remember that Stalin is the monster that started the war as an ally of Hitler. Know that he will hold and oppress whatever territory he gains.

Give them co-belligerence status, not allied.

No Lend Lease. Let the Red Army grind on, the slower the better. If it reverses? NOt a problem. As long as the fighting continues Hitler is fighting a two front war.


Plan for D-Day when US and UK forces are ready. If the A-Bomb comes on line before hand, use it to end war.

At some point negotiate a surrender with German Army that includes intensive de-nazification.

THe further west the Red Army line of control the better for the post war situation.

Who knows, maybe there won't be a Cold War at all.

OK...thanks for providing some details

Stalin was a prick...that is a given
Hitler came within a hair of a breakthrough and could easily have won. The alternative of a Nazi held Europe is far worse than any Cold War. Denying needed supplies could have led to that victory
I like FDRs resolution of a Cold War that lasted 45 years without casualties over your solution of a nuclear war
Hitler was unwilling to surrender under any conditions. Even though it cost his country hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths. He was not looking for a way out

By the time the US entered the War, the Naiz onslaught in Russia had already been turned around.

HItler could have won, if the Soviets had done a little worse in the summer/fall of 41.

After that, it was very unlikely.

Hitler had to go, as did all high level Nazis.

With US air superiority and/or the Atomic Bomb on the table, IMO the German Army might have been willing to take care of that.

20 July plot - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

If not...

Then yes, then D-Day or Nuclear bombardment.

How is nuclear war preferable to Cold War?

Because of less loss of life (especially American) and half the continent not being under communist oppression and the whole world not being on the edge of a nuclear holocaust for the next 50 years.

So nuclear holocaust in Russia, in 1944, before the bomb was ready, is preferable to being on the edge of nuclear holocaust?