family sending all ten of their home-schooled children to college by the age of 12

Actually this is a common arguement. They won't have the advantage socially. They socialise with other christian children who are homeschooled. I wondered about it but now that my own are grown? It was the best thing that ever happened because they avoided the pitfalls al the public school children have fallen into.

Drug abuse is one of the main pitfalls along with bullying, suicide, death, gang rapes, drinking binges, etc, you're right. They missed all of that and are now enjoying good jobs, healthy family life - void of the nonsense and drama I see today permeating our society today. Thanks for your concern but it looks to me like you might want to take care of your own children a little better? - Jeri

Yes, and when they grow up they will be able to socialize with other christians.

What common life experiences did they have with others of their generation? Did they watch The Simpsons? Did they see the popular movies? What music did they listen to? What video games did they play? What clothes did they wear?

These are the life experiences that go to create popular culture. That is the culture of your generation.......your parents cannot give that to you

We don't approve of this popular culture you liberals have created. It has been proven to be total garbage. We are busy creating a new culture free of Bart, the I kissed a girl crowd, Hollywood smut films, heavy metal backmasked with suicide messages & the rest. The results are in. Our children are better off for having never met Bart Simpson and the rest of these bad characters. Cartoon or otherwise.

It always amazes me when liberal parents complain about their children being rude to them, speaking back to them, disrespecting them publicly. If you ask them, did they watch Bart Simpson growing up? They will tell you of course! We gave them everything! ha! ha! You sure did! The fact is? You shouldn't have!

The secret is not in giving them everything but in giving them less and letting them use their imaginations instead to create fun, games outdoors, etc. Children do better with less not more. Look at the toyboxes overflowing. They won't even look at it. Give them an hour or two outside with a ball and glove and your attention. That is what they want and need. - Jeri

In it's day....Mozart was popular culture
Shakespeare was written for the masses
Jazz music was the music of savages

You have to allow each generation to establish their own popular culture. It is a common bond for a generation.

Years from now, your children will hear a joke relating to a character on the Simpsons, a popular movie....maybe a reference to a video game. They will sit here clueless as everyone else laughs

They may be smart.....but not that kind of smart
 
Actually this is a common arguement. They won't have the advantage socially. They socialise with other christian children who are homeschooled. I wondered about it but now that my own are grown? It was the best thing that ever happened because they avoided the pitfalls al the public school children have fallen into.

Drug abuse is one of the main pitfalls along with bullying, suicide, death, gang rapes, drinking binges, etc, you're right. They missed all of that and are now enjoying good jobs, healthy family life - void of the nonsense and drama I see today permeating our society today. Thanks for your concern but it looks to me like you might want to take care of your own children a little better? - Jeri

Yes, and when they grow up they will be able to socialize with other christians.

What common life experiences did they have with others of their generation? Did they watch The Simpsons? Did they see the popular movies? What music did they listen to? What video games did they play? What clothes did they wear?

These are the life experiences that go to create popular culture. That is the culture of your generation.......your parents cannot give that to you

We don't approve of this popular culture you liberals have created. It has been proven to be total garbage. We are busy creating a new culture free of Bart, the I kissed a girl crowd, Hollywood smut films, heavy metal backmasked with suicide messages & the rest. The results are in. Our children are better off for having never met Bart Simpson and the rest of these bad characters. Cartoon or otherwise.

It always amazes me when liberal parents complain about their children being rude to them, speaking back to them, disrespecting them publicly. If you ask them, did they watch Bart Simpson growing up? They will tell you of course! We gave them everything! ha! ha! You sure did! The fact is? You shouldn't have!

The secret is not in giving them everything but in giving them less and letting them use their imaginations instead to create fun, games outdoors, etc. Children do better with less not more. Look at the toyboxes overflowing. They won't even look at it. Give them an hour or two outside with a ball and glove and your attention. That is what they want and need. - Jeri


You can create that kind of alternate reality for your kids, but you can't sustain it. Eventually, inevitably, they must enter the mainstream just as it is, not as you'd like it to be, and live the rest of their lives surrounded by an alien and unfamiliar culture.

What then?
 
Ah yes let's aspire to be common, average, mediocre so we'll all just fit in.

It has nothing to do with your aspirations but your life experiences. A 12 year old who has never been free to interact socially without supervision is not mature enough to interact with 19 year olds from all walks of life

You cannot protect your child from all perceived social evils. You best defense is to give your child strong values and the tools to handle what life may bring him

I've got news for you. The 12 yr olds who have been properly supervised by their parents are more mature and well adjusted than 19 yr olds in the usa for the most part. Had a look at facebook lately? YIKES!

No they are not

They have been sheltered and are devoid of life experience both good and bad. They dont know how to deal with conflict because mommy has protected them from conflict. They don't know how to tease and be teased......the gentile ribbing of social interaction. They lack defense mechanisms built through years of unsupervised social interaction

A 12 year old is not going to be teased and mocked in a group full of 19-20 year olds? Your defensive parenting has prepared him for that?
 
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Yes, and when they grow up they will be able to socialize with other christians.

What common life experiences did they have with others of their generation? Did they watch The Simpsons? Did they see the popular movies? What music did they listen to? What video games did they play? What clothes did they wear?

These are the life experiences that go to create popular culture. That is the culture of your generation.......your parents cannot give that to you

We don't approve of this popular culture you liberals have created. It has been proven to be total garbage. We are busy creating a new culture free of Bart, the I kissed a girl crowd, Hollywood smut films, heavy metal backmasked with suicide messages & the rest. The results are in. Our children are better off for having never met Bart Simpson and the rest of these bad characters. Cartoon or otherwise.

It always amazes me when liberal parents complain about their children being rude to them, speaking back to them, disrespecting them publicly. If you ask them, did they watch Bart Simpson growing up? They will tell you of course! We gave them everything! ha! ha! You sure did! The fact is? You shouldn't have!

The secret is not in giving them everything but in giving them less and letting them use their imaginations instead to create fun, games outdoors, etc. Children do better with less not more. Look at the toyboxes overflowing. They won't even look at it. Give them an hour or two outside with a ball and glove and your attention. That is what they want and need. - Jeri

In it's day....Mozart was popular culture
Shakespeare was written for the masses
Jazz music was the music of savages

You have to allow each generation to establish their own popular culture. It is a common bond for a generation.

Years from now, your children will hear a joke relating to a character on the Simpsons, a popular movie....maybe a reference to a video game. They will sit here clueless as everyone else laughs

They may be smart.....but not that kind of smart

Classical music is superb. I kept it playing while pregnant - started early.

My youngest began learning violin at age 7. It is the most difficult instrument. I strongly support playing classical music, introduce chess as early as 4 or 5 - increases the abilities for music, math, analytical thinking, etc.

About Bart Simpson. Definitely parents should not allow their children to view Bart Simpson but rather educate them about cartoons progressive atheists put out to teach children how to disobey and disrespect their parents. You could share a few things Bart is known to say and then ask them to participate in a discussion as to what kind of manners this would lead children to have towards authority. It is a great discussion topic. I'd definitely use it if I were raising children today. - Jeri
 
We don't approve of this popular culture you liberals have created. It has been proven to be total garbage. We are busy creating a new culture free of Bart, the I kissed a girl crowd, Hollywood smut films, heavy metal backmasked with suicide messages & the rest. The results are in. Our children are better off for having never met Bart Simpson and the rest of these bad characters. Cartoon or otherwise.

It always amazes me when liberal parents complain about their children being rude to them, speaking back to them, disrespecting them publicly. If you ask them, did they watch Bart Simpson growing up? They will tell you of course! We gave them everything! ha! ha! You sure did! The fact is? You shouldn't have!

The secret is not in giving them everything but in giving them less and letting them use their imaginations instead to create fun, games outdoors, etc. Children do better with less not more. Look at the toyboxes overflowing. They won't even look at it. Give them an hour or two outside with a ball and glove and your attention. That is what they want and need. - Jeri

In it's day....Mozart was popular culture
Shakespeare was written for the masses
Jazz music was the music of savages

You have to allow each generation to establish their own popular culture. It is a common bond for a generation.

Years from now, your children will hear a joke relating to a character on the Simpsons, a popular movie....maybe a reference to a video game. They will sit here clueless as everyone else laughs

They may be smart.....but not that kind of smart

Classical music is superb. I kept it playing while pregnant - started early.

My youngest began learning violin at age 7. It is the most difficult instrument. I strongly support playing classical music, introduce chess as early as 4 or 5 - increases the abilities for music, math, analytical thinking, etc.

About Bart Simpson. Definitely parents should not allow their children to view Bart Simpson but rather educate them about cartoons progressive atheists put out to teach children how to disobey and disrespect their parents. You could share a few things Bart is known to say and then ask them to participate in a discussion as to what kind of manners this would lead children to have towards authority. It is a great discussion topic. I'd definitely use it if I were raising children today. - Jeri

The Simpsons teaches children about satire......a valuable life skill
 
It has nothing to do with your aspirations but your life experiences. A 12 year old who has never been free to interact socially without supervision is not mature enough to interact with 19 year olds from all walks of life

You cannot protect your child from all perceived social evils. You best defense is to give your child strong values and the tools to handle what life may bring him

I've got news for you. The 12 yr olds who have been properly supervised by their parents are more mature and well adjusted than 19 yr olds in the usa for the most part. Had a look at facebook lately? YIKES!

No they are not

They have been sheltered and are devoid of life experience both good and bad. They dont know how to deal with conflict because mommy has protected them from conflict. They don't know how to tease and be teased......the gentile ribbing of social interaction. They lack defense mechanisms built through years of unsupervised social interaction

A 12 year old is not going to be teased and mocked in a group full of 19-20 year olds? Your defensive parenting has prepared him for that?

You are wrong. I've heard all these arguements before and the results reflect the opposite. They are far more mature, better capable of handing adversity, not afraid to ask for assistance from an authority figure if having trouble, they are not intimidated because they have been taught that intimidation is a choice. You don't have to respond to it.

The 12 yr old homeschoolers I see in debate competitions now would rip into a 19 or 20 yr old and make an utter fool of them anyhow. These are very well educated children. They are equipped. Which is probably the trouble you are having with learning about homeschoolers. They are more equipped than your own children and you are worried about it. A wise parent would get with the program and do the same for their own children / grandchildren rather than grasp at straws to put down what obviously is a better plan. - Jeri
 
I've got news for you. The 12 yr olds who have been properly supervised by their parents are more mature and well adjusted than 19 yr olds in the usa for the most part. Had a look at facebook lately? YIKES!

No they are not

They have been sheltered and are devoid of life experience both good and bad. They dont know how to deal with conflict because mommy has protected them from conflict. They don't know how to tease and be teased......the gentile ribbing of social interaction. They lack defense mechanisms built through years of unsupervised social interaction

A 12 year old is not going to be teased and mocked in a group full of 19-20 year olds? Your defensive parenting has prepared him for that?

You are wrong. I've heard all these arguements before and the results reflect the opposite. They are far more mature, better capable of handing adversity, not afraid to ask for assistance from an authority figure if having trouble, they are not intimidated because they have been taught that intimidation is a choice. You don't have to respond to it.

The 12 yr old homeschoolers I see in debate competitions now would rip into a 19 or 20 yr old and make an utter fool of them anyhow. These are very well educated children. They are equipped. Which is probably the trouble you are having with learning about homeschoolers. They are more equipped than your own children and you are worried about it. A wise parent would get with the program and do the same for their own children / grandchildren rather than grasp at straws to put down what obviously is a better plan. - Jeri

Exactly....you are raising social outcasts unable to resolve day to day conflicts on a one to one basis. Out of touch and in a world of their own

The Mitt Romneys of the next generation
 
Yes, and when they grow up they will be able to socialize with other christians.

What common life experiences did they have with others of their generation? Did they watch The Simpsons? Did they see the popular movies? What music did they listen to? What video games did they play? What clothes did they wear?

These are the life experiences that go to create popular culture. That is the culture of your generation.......your parents cannot give that to you

We don't approve of this popular culture you liberals have created. It has been proven to be total garbage. We are busy creating a new culture free of Bart, the I kissed a girl crowd, Hollywood smut films, heavy metal backmasked with suicide messages & the rest. The results are in. Our children are better off for having never met Bart Simpson and the rest of these bad characters. Cartoon or otherwise.

It always amazes me when liberal parents complain about their children being rude to them, speaking back to them, disrespecting them publicly. If you ask them, did they watch Bart Simpson growing up? They will tell you of course! We gave them everything! ha! ha! You sure did! The fact is? You shouldn't have!

The secret is not in giving them everything but in giving them less and letting them use their imaginations instead to create fun, games outdoors, etc. Children do better with less not more. Look at the toyboxes overflowing. They won't even look at it. Give them an hour or two outside with a ball and glove and your attention. That is what they want and need. - Jeri


You can create that kind of alternate reality for your kids, but you can't sustain it. Eventually, inevitably, they must enter the mainstream just as it is, not as you'd like it to be, and live the rest of their lives surrounded by an alien and unfamiliar culture.

What then?

? Unrealistic fear. Mine are grown and doing great. Nothing alien or unfamilar going on. I'm sure that must bother the crud out of you! ha! ha! I have to laugh because I have heard all this nonsense so often and yet none of it has ever happened.

You know how you can tell you are in the presence of a homeschooler? They are respectful, well adjusted and set apart from the rest. You walk away realising what your child could have been and isn't because you allowed all the garbage of the world to saturate their innocent young minds before they were capable of filtering through what is what.

Children are like a sponge. They soak up whatever you give them. Pour pure water on a table and let the sponge absorb it. Now squeeze the sponge. Pure water comes out. Why? That is what was placed on the table. Now if you poured poison on the counter and put the sponge to it and then squeeze the sponge poison comes out. I call it the garbage in - garbage out theory. Its proven to be true.

It is very simple if you'd give it some thought as to what you are doing by subjecting your children to the filth of Hollywood - homosexual behavior - premarital sex - drug culture - etc. the truth is you never gave them a chance. They were destined to lose the moment you decided it was too much trouble to monitor what was going into their young minds. I'm sorry for your children. ( those who have been treated so carelessly ) Truly I am.

- Jeri
 
In it's day....Mozart was popular culture
Shakespeare was written for the masses
Jazz music was the music of savages

You have to allow each generation to establish their own popular culture. It is a common bond for a generation.

Years from now, your children will hear a joke relating to a character on the Simpsons, a popular movie....maybe a reference to a video game. They will sit here clueless as everyone else laughs

They may be smart.....but not that kind of smart

Classical music is superb. I kept it playing while pregnant - started early.

My youngest began learning violin at age 7. It is the most difficult instrument. I strongly support playing classical music, introduce chess as early as 4 or 5 - increases the abilities for music, math, analytical thinking, etc.

About Bart Simpson. Definitely parents should not allow their children to view Bart Simpson but rather educate them about cartoons progressive atheists put out to teach children how to disobey and disrespect their parents. You could share a few things Bart is known to say and then ask them to participate in a discussion as to what kind of manners this would lead children to have towards authority. It is a great discussion topic. I'd definitely use it if I were raising children today. - Jeri

The Simpsons teaches children about satire......a valuable life skill

Wrong. The Simpsons teach children to disrespect authority, to consider their parents to be idiots, to speak down to their parents, they teach bad manners is something amusing and entertaining, that obedience is optional, that the world revolves around them and they are entitled to everything while refusing to put forth any effort to earn.

Raise your children on the Simpsons and you can expect them to spit in your face. Garbage in? Garbage out. No child should be watching anything Hollywood produces concerning cartoons, sitcoms, none of it is good material. Don't allow it into your homes.
 
In it's day....Mozart was popular culture
Shakespeare was written for the masses
Jazz music was the music of savages

You have to allow each generation to establish their own popular culture. It is a common bond for a generation.

Years from now, your children will hear a joke relating to a character on the Simpsons, a popular movie....maybe a reference to a video game. They will sit here clueless as everyone else laughs

They may be smart.....but not that kind of smart

Classical music is superb. I kept it playing while pregnant - started early.

My youngest began learning violin at age 7. It is the most difficult instrument. I strongly support playing classical music, introduce chess as early as 4 or 5 - increases the abilities for music, math, analytical thinking, etc.

About Bart Simpson. Definitely parents should not allow their children to view Bart Simpson but rather educate them about cartoons progressive atheists put out to teach children how to disobey and disrespect their parents. You could share a few things Bart is known to say and then ask them to participate in a discussion as to what kind of manners this would lead children to have towards authority. It is a great discussion topic. I'd definitely use it if I were raising children today. - Jeri

The Simpsons teaches children about satire......a valuable life skill

The Simpsons can be funny at times but not as funny as your assessment of their contribution to society. I see now why you lefties consider the comedy channel so politically important.

That sir, is quite a joke indeed
 
but rather educate them about cartoons progressive atheists put out to teach children how to disobey and disrespect their parents.


That would be indoctrination by any definition.

Teaching them the truth is not indoctrination. It is preparing them for their first encounter with a liberal later on. lol..... they will know just how screwed up you people are. Look at you for the perfect example. You are not a rightwinger and this isn't satire. You chose the screen name because deception is your game.
 
We don't approve of this popular culture you liberals have created. It has been proven to be total garbage. We are busy creating a new culture free of Bart, the I kissed a girl crowd, Hollywood smut films, heavy metal backmasked with suicide messages & the rest. The results are in. Our children are better off for having never met Bart Simpson and the rest of these bad characters. Cartoon or otherwise.

It always amazes me when liberal parents complain about their children being rude to them, speaking back to them, disrespecting them publicly. If you ask them, did they watch Bart Simpson growing up? They will tell you of course! We gave them everything! ha! ha! You sure did! The fact is? You shouldn't have!

The secret is not in giving them everything but in giving them less and letting them use their imaginations instead to create fun, games outdoors, etc. Children do better with less not more. Look at the toyboxes overflowing. They won't even look at it. Give them an hour or two outside with a ball and glove and your attention. That is what they want and need. - Jeri


You can create that kind of alternate reality for your kids, but you can't sustain it. Eventually, inevitably, they must enter the mainstream just as it is, not as you'd like it to be, and live the rest of their lives surrounded by an alien and unfamiliar culture.

What then?

? Unrealistic fear. Mine are grown and doing great. Nothing alien or unfamilar going on. I'm sure that must bother the crud out of you! ha! ha! I have to laugh because I have heard all this nonsense so often and yet none of it has ever happened.

You know how you can tell you are in the presence of a homeschooler? They are respectful, well adjusted and set apart from the rest. You walk away realising what your child could have been and isn't because you allowed all the garbage of the world to saturate their innocent young minds before they were capable of filtering through what is what.

Children are like a sponge. They soak up whatever you give them. Pour pure water on a table and let the sponge absorb it. Now squeeze the sponge. Pure water comes out. Why? That is what was placed on the table. Now if you poured poison on the counter and put the sponge to it and then squeeze the sponge poison comes out. I call it the garbage in - garbage out theory. Its proven to be true.

It is very simple if you'd give it some thought as to what you are doing by subjecting your children to the filth of Hollywood - homosexual behavior - premarital sex - drug culture - etc. the truth is you never gave them a chance. They were destined to lose the moment you decided it was too much trouble to monitor what was going into their young minds. I'm sorry for your children. ( those who have been treated so carelessly ) Truly I am.

- Jeri


Jesus told us to be in the world, but not of the world. What did He mean by that and why did He tell us?

He means for us not to separate ourselves out from humanity, not to insulate ourselves from our neighbors (whom we are commanded to love, not avoid), not to live behind self-erected barricades which divide us from everyone else. Instead, we are to go out into the highways and byways and live among the people we're to reach with the Gospel, but we were not to become like them. Our light cannot shine if it's hidden under a bushel. If it glows only inside our self-imposed isolation, it's useless for dispelling the darkness in which most people walk.

In the parable of the wedding feast, the master's servants are sent out to invite total strangers to the banquet. Yes, that parable is about Jews and Gentiles, but the principle applies here as well. How can we invite strangers to the marriage supper of the Lamb if we're not a part of the world they live in? How can we entice them if they don't know us and we don't know them?

Additionally, we are told to put on the whole armor of God to resist the adversary. How can we resist him whom we've never met? How can we fight against the wiles of the devil if we've been protected from his attacks before and have no experience with him? Adults who were protected in their childhood are easy targets for the devils lies because they've never heard them before. Too often, they become the caricature of the "preachers kid."

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that home-schooling for "Christian" reasons is a false doctrine, from which will spring nothing but evil effects. Jesus did not take his disciples into a walled compound to teach them. He led them from their fishing boats and tax collectors table right out into the world, right out among a most evil and deceitful generation, to live and walk and preach among them, to let the light of the Gospel shine where the darkness existed.

If He didn't do that, what gives us the idea that we should? And, by what right should we expect such disobedience to turn out well?
 
Classical music is superb. I kept it playing while pregnant - started early.

My youngest began learning violin at age 7. It is the most difficult instrument. I strongly support playing classical music, introduce chess as early as 4 or 5 - increases the abilities for music, math, analytical thinking, etc.

About Bart Simpson. Definitely parents should not allow their children to view Bart Simpson but rather educate them about cartoons progressive atheists put out to teach children how to disobey and disrespect their parents. You could share a few things Bart is known to say and then ask them to participate in a discussion as to what kind of manners this would lead children to have towards authority. It is a great discussion topic. I'd definitely use it if I were raising children today. - Jeri

The Simpsons teaches children about satire......a valuable life skill

The Simpsons can be funny at times but not as funny as your assessment of their contribution to society. I see now why you lefties consider the comedy channel so politically important.

That sir, is quite a joke indeed

Comedy is a valuable life skill. It opens doors personally and socially. The Simpsons is a defining social comedy of the current generation. To "protect" your children from such an exceptional social satire is a shame
 
Yes, the world would be sooo much better if all righties could homeskool their children. I can see it now...

As opposed to going to NEA-run schools where lefties' kids get killed for their tennis shoes or jackets??
 
Good for them. But what's the point of this thread? That public school is inferior to home schooling? That every child should be home-schooled?

I doubt that most parents would have the time or be able to afford the lost income to school their children at home. How many parents are working one, two full time jobs just to get by? Should they quit their job(s)?

It is cheaper to homeschool your child than to send them to public school. That is a fact. You won't be buying school clothes, school supplies, etc, you won't be putting gasoline in your car to shuttle them back & forth, to pay for this field trip, paper for the teachers classroom, ( because otherwise they don't have it ) extra reading books, etc. Far cheaper to homeschool your child. You can join other homeschool parents and rotate during summer months or pay one to stay home and others chip in, there is always a way to do it if you have the will to put your children first and spare them the horrors of public school system.

One story that shocked me was a boy who raped a girl in an elementary school bathroom and the principal didn't report it right away. I was horrified to hear of what is happening in our elementary schools. The suicide rate is through the roof, time to put your children first and let them homeschool. - Jeri
Don't be so insulting. How about you *gasp* let the parents decide what's best for their child or children. My kids would hate to be home schooled not the least of which reason is that they attend a performing arts school. Home schooling is definitely not for every child and one horror story about something that happened in an elementary school doesn't make them all bad (or does one shooting make all gun owners bad?)

And you can't tell me that all parents are equipped to teach their child Trigonometry or Physics - what about the parents who took Vocational skills in High School? Hell, I was an English major in college, but I seriously doubt I could help my kids diagram a sentence at this point in my life.
 
but rather educate them about cartoons progressive atheists put out to teach children how to disobey and disrespect their parents.


That would be indoctrination by any definition.

Teaching them the truth is not indoctrination. It is preparing them for their first encounter with a liberal later on. lol..... they will know just how screwed up you people are. Look at you for the perfect example. You are not a rightwinger and this isn't satire. You chose the screen name because deception is your game.

So, you've identified liberals as the evil ones your children should look out for and you've drilled that un-American, un-Christian kind of hatred into their heads and called it education?

My God, woman! You're the epitome of all that's wrong with the fundamentalist, Evangelical right wing movement and why even the government is beginning to recognize the threat your kind of prejudice, bigotry and hatred represents.

Oh...and...ps: I really am an old guy.
 
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It means we live in this world but we are not participating IN its wickedness, its godless education system that teaches communist spiritual father - Darwin lies - rather than the truth.

Children are a gift from God the bible says. We are responsible to raise our children to the glory of God. Not to the glory of this world and its godless system.

You raise your children your way. We'll raise ours the right way. According to the Word of God. Not the god of this world. Got it?
 
The Simpsons teaches children about satire......a valuable life skill

The Simpsons can be funny at times but not as funny as your assessment of their contribution to society. I see now why you lefties consider the comedy channel so politically important.

That sir, is quite a joke indeed

Comedy is a valuable life skill. It opens doors personally and socially. The Simpsons is a defining social comedy of the current generation. To "protect" your children from such an exceptional social satire is a shame

Nonsense. There was a reason that show was on at night during the week and not Saturday morning. To appeal to young adults not children.

But don't bother to respond because I know you won't admit it.
 

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