Fascism and the left wing

[bripat9643]

BriPat -

If you have something with even a shred of intellectual merit, I will respond to it.

By merit, I also mean something backed with facts, references and links.

Don’t hold your breath.

The usual idiots chime in.

 

[Saigon]

Bripat -

I will pick up on this point because it is geninely confusing when people first come across it, bu I think it is abundantly clear that this topic is simply for over your head. Whether this is an issue of ignorance, low levels of literacy or simply closed mindedness on your part I have no idea.

I would suggest you read some books - such as the Kershaw or Marris cited earlier - and try to get up to speed that way if you are genuinely interested.

You posted no links to any material that proves the word "socialism" doesn't mean "socialism" in Germany.

Nazi Führer Adolf Hitler had objected to the party's previous leader's decision to use the word "Socialist" in its name as Hitler at the time instead preferred to use "Social Revolutionary". Upon taking over the leadership, Hitler kept the term but defined "socialism" as meaning a commitment of an individual to a community. Hitler claimed that "true" socialism does not repudiate private property unlike the claims of Marxism, and claimed that the "Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning" and said that "Communism is not socialism. Marxism is not socialism." Hitler claimed that unconditional equality of opportunity for all "racially sound" Aryan males was the essence of the "Socialism" of "National Socialism".

Nazism favoured private property, freedom of contract, and promoted the creation of national solidarity that would transcend class differences. The Nazis outlawed strikes by employees and lockouts by employers, because these were regarded a threat to national unity.

Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that the use of the term Nazi in Germany dates back to the 1920s.

The term 'Socialist' came to be used internationally exclusively about left wing politics curing the 1930s, and its use by Franco, Mussolini and Antonescu confirm this.

 

[bripat9643]

BriPat -

If you have something with even a shred of intellectual merit, I will respond to it.

By merit, I also mean something backed with facts, references and links.

Don’t hold your breath.

After 22 pages, there seems to be a clear pattern of BriPat's just saying "No, that is Marxist" to anything at all that is presented.

Dictionaries are Marxist....who knew?!

Hitler, Speer, Franco and Heidigger are not reliable sources on what Fascism means....it's an interesting position to take!

Hitler says that the Nazis are socialists. Speer's career proves that Nazis are socialists. His job was socializing the German economy.

Heidigger was a philosopher. He didn't comment directly on whether the Nazis were socialists. If you've got something to quote, then post it, but I doubt you do.

If Franco claimed he wasn't a socialist, he was wrong. Every Democrat in Congress claims he isn't a socialist, so such claims obviously can't be taken at face value. Socialists often deny the truth for political reasons. Socialism has never been popular with large factions of the electorate.

 

[Saigon]

If Franco claimed he wasn't a socialist, he was wrong.

You have to laugh, don't you?

Imagine poor old Franco not knowing what his politics were!

"One thing that I am sure of, and which I can answer truthfully, is that whatever the contingencies that may arise here, wherever I am there will be no Communism."

"We strive to form a single national front against the Judeo-Masonic lodges, against Moscow and the Marxist societies."

Francisco Franco - Wikiquote

 

[Saigon]

Speer's career proves that Nazis are socialists. His job was socializing the German economy.

No, he was largely an architect.

Albert Speer (born Berthold Konrad Hermann Albert Speer;[1] pronounced [ˈʃpeːɐ̯] ( listen); March 19, 1905 – September 1, 1981) was a German architect who was, for a part of World War II, Minister of Armaments and War Production for the Third Reich. Speer was Adolf Hitler's chief architect before assuming ministerial office. As "the Nazi who said sorry",[a] he accepted responsibility at the Nuremberg trials and in his memoirs for crimes of the Nazi regime.

Heidigger was a philosopher. He didn't comment directly on whether the Nazis were socialists

And you have read Heidigger, have you?

 

[bripat9643]

You posted no links to any material that proves the word "socialism" doesn't mean "socialism" in Germany.

Nazi Führer Adolf Hitler had objected to the party's previous leader's decision to use the word "Socialist" in its name as Hitler at the time instead preferred to use "Social Revolutionary".[14] Upon taking over the leadership, Hitler kept the term but defined "socialism" as meaning a commitment of an individual to a community. Hitler claimed that "true" socialism does not repudiate private property unlike the claims of Marxism, and claimed that the "Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning" and said that "Communism is not socialism. Marxism is not socialism."[15] Hitler claimed that unconditional equality of opportunity for all "racially sound" Aryan males was the essence of the "Socialism" of "National Socialism".

Nazism favoured private property, freedom of contract, and promoted the creation of national solidarity that would transcend class differences. The Nazis outlawed strikes by employees and lockouts by employers, because these were regarded a threat to national unity.

Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why Nazism Was Socialism and Why Socialism Is Totalitarian - George Reisman - Mises Daily

"Private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and the actual substance of ownership of the means of production resided in the German government. For it was the German government and not the nominal private owners that exercised all of the substantive powers of ownership: it, not the nominal private owners, decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be distributed, as well as what prices would be charged and what wages would be paid, and what dividends or other income the nominal private owners would be permitted to receive. The position of the alleged private owners was reduced essentially to that of government pensioners."

- George Reisman, 2005, "The Economics of Fascism, Supporters Summit 2005." -​

 

[bripat9643]

Speer's career proves that Nazis are socialists. His job was socializing the German economy.

No, he was largely an architect.

Albert Speer (born Berthold Konrad Hermann Albert Speer;[1] pronounced [ˈʃpeːɐ̯] ( listen); March 19, 1905 – September 1, 1981) was a German architect who was, for a part of World War II, Minister of Armaments and War Production for the Third Reich. Speer was Adolf Hitler's chief architect before assuming ministerial office. As "the Nazi who said sorry",[a] he accepted responsibility at the Nuremberg trials and in his memoirs for crimes of the Nazi regime.

You really don't know a thing about Alber Speer, do you? During the war he took over total control of the German economy. He decided what was produced, where it was produced, who produced it, what prices they charged, who they distributed the product to, the wages they paid, and made virtually every other decision a business would normally make in a market economy.

Heidigger was a philosopher. He didn't comment directly on whether the Nazis were socialists

And you have read Heidigger, have you?

We studied him in a college course I took called "20th Century European Culture."

 

[Obamanation]

Hiler was a fascist in charge of a leftist nation. He, himself, was neither left nor right.

 

[bripat9643]

If Franco claimed he wasn't a socialist, he was wrong.

You have to laugh, don't you?

Imagine poor old Franco not knowing what his politics were!

"One thing that I am sure of, and which I can answer truthfully, is that whatever the contingencies that may arise here, wherever I am there will be no Communism."

"We strive to form a single national front against the Judeo-Masonic lodges, against Moscow and the Marxist societies."

Francisco Franco - Wikiquote

Again, being opposed to communism is not the same thing as being opposed to socialism. For one thing, the communists believed socialism would only work if the entire world was converted to their program. That's why it was called "international." Men like Franco didn't want to be just another cog in the communist empire.

 

[Saigon]

Again, being opposed to communism is not the same thing as being opposed to socialism.For one thing, the communists believed socialism would only work if the entire world was converted to their program. That's why it was called "international." Men like Franco didn't want to be just another cog in the communist empire.

Gibberish, guessing and bluffing.

The Marxist conception of socialism is that of a specific historical phase that will displace capitalism and precede communism. The major characteristics of socialism (particularly as conceived by Marx and Engels after the Paris Commune of 1871) are that the proletariat will control the means of production through a workers' state erected by the workers in their interests. Economic activity would still be organised through the use of incentive systems and social classes would still exist, but to a lesser and diminishing extent than under capitalism.

Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are dozens of different forms of socialism out there and even more definitions, but for general purposes it is easiest to either consider Socialism and Communism as synonyms; to view Socialism as a step towards Communism; or to consider Socialism a milder form of Communism.

Hitler, Antonescu, Pinochet, Stroessner, Musolini and Franco all expressed their hatred and contempt for Communism, Marxism and (Soviet) Socialism, and their quotes have been presented.

 

[bripat9643]

I'm not the slightest bit confused. I simply don't buy into your bullshit propaganda political terminology. It was all coined by Marxists.

What you do not buy into are facts.

Have you noticed that on this thread you have not presented a single, linked verifiable fact?

Aside from wiki links, what "verifiable fact" have you posted? Most people laugh whenever anyone posts a wiki link to support his case.

You left confused several days ago, passed through self-satire and are now reaching the outskirts of bonkers.

I didn't "leave confused", nitwit, I went to bed.

btw. You know this is what I do for work, right? I have worked with political history and political theory for the past 20 years.

In other words, you're just another pinko propaganda artist.

 

[Saigon]

what "verifiable fact" have you posted?

- Quotes from Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, which all attack Marxism, Communism and/or Socialism

- Dictionary definitions of terms from 3 online dictionaries, which all use define "fascist" as being right wing

- Graphs and links to material on the political horseshoe model which place Fascim on the extreme right wing

- Book references (Kershaw, Marris, Traudl Junge, Albert Speer)

- A list of 6 German historians who have written on this topic (Hildebrand etc), and all of whom decribe Fascism as being right wing

- Links to articles on Stroessner, Pinochet and Antonescu which all use the terms "fascist" and "right wing"

- Links to articles on Speer, Traudl Junge and Heidigger

All of these are verifiable.

All confirm that fascism is right wing.

All of them were dismiissed by you because they were "marxist", because politicians lie, because politicians themselves are not good sources, because you won't read books, because, becaue, because.

If you have not realised yourself how absolutely laugh-lout-loud hilarious your twisting, squirming and simply stupid your Wall of Denial is, you really should.

What I think this thread has established in volumnes is that for the truly brainwashed and the truly stupid, no amount of evidence at all will ever convince them. In fact, information itself is the enemy. It is not a battle between competing bodies of evidence, but a battle between facts as a concept and supersitiion as a form of religion.

So congratulations on that BriPat, you have attained a place of ignorance far beyond the reach of the seeping tides and winding rivers of news and information.

 

[editec]

FASCISM is typically RIGHT WING CORPORATE CONTROLLED SOCIALISM.

That's how's Hitler's version worked, that's how Mussolini's version of it worked, and Franco's version of it, too.

Denying those OBVIOUS fact is something that only revisionists even attempt.

 

[squeeze berry]

FASCISM is typically RIGHT WING CORPORATE CONTROLLED SOCIALISM.

That's how's Hitler's version worked, that's how Mussolini's version of it worked, and Franco's version of it, too.

Denying those OBVIOUS fact is something that only revisionists even attempt.

so now I'm confused.

would Mao and Stalin have been fascists too?

I know they were commies but it all sounds the same

 

[Fordsflylow]

FASCISM is typically RIGHT WING CORPORATE CONTROLLED SOCIALISM.

That's how's Hitler's version worked, that's how Mussolini's version of it worked, and Franco's version of it, too.

Denying those OBVIOUS fact is something that only revisionists even attempt.

so now I'm confused.

would Mao and Stalin have been fascists too?

I know they were commies but it all sounds the same

Actually, you've been confused all along - and just now realized it

 

[Saigon]

would Mao and Stalin have been fascists too?

I know they were commies but it all sounds the same

No, Mao and Stalin were communists.

Both wanted to smash the upper and middle classes - whereas Fascists worked with the upper and middle classes.

Both wanted to do away with money - whereas Fascist direct money towards their supporters and friends.

Both could be quite tolerant of minorities (when it suited them to be so), whereas Fascists typically attack minorities.

Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Franco etc were all despots, tyrants and were all authoritarian.

 

[squeeze berry]

would Mao and Stalin have been fascists too?

I know they were commies but it all sounds the same

No, Mao and Stalin were communists.

Both wanted to smash the upper and middle classes - whereas Fascists worked with the upper and middle classes.

Both wanted to do away with money - whereas Fascist direct money towards their supporters and friends.

Both could be quite tolerant of minorities (when it suited them to be so), whereas Fascists typically attack minorities.

Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Franco etc were all despots, tyrants and were all authoritarian.

OK now that makes sense

 

[JakeStarkey]

bripat sounds just like John Oliver who lied to sleep with the girl, so he told her that his parents were a Secretary of State and an astronaut. When called out on the lie, John said the end justified the means, and when called out again, he yelled "But I can change the story" to get what I want.

Commonly accepted definitions from the dictionary are the authority.

You can't change the meanings because you don't like them.

Well that certainly is a compelling argument.

You mean compared to refusing to use dictionaries because they are written by liberals?

Appeal to authority.

Next fallacy to dispose of, please.

 

[Saigon]

Commonly accepted definitions from the dictionary are the authority.

You can't change the meanings because you don't like them.

I agree totally.

I would have accepted BriPat's logic had we been talking about one particular dictionary, but to reject ALL dictionaries as BriPat does here is just imbecilic.

BriPat has simply determined himself that all facts and information can be dismissed out of hand - only faith and superstition count.

Oxford Dictionaries say otherwise:

Definition of fascism
noun
[mass noun]

an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices: this is yet another example of health fascism in action

The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43); the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also Fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.

Definition of fascism - political system, politics and practice

 

[regent]

Reminds me of the thread that went on forever, claiming Truman was a Republican. Or another claiming Jefferson was a conservative. But how about this: Lincoln was a liberal?