Fascism and the left wing

[bripat9643]

Pinochet

On 11 September 1973 Pinochet joined a coup d'état which overthrew Allende's elected socialist government.

From the beginning, the government implemented harsh measures against its political opponents.[5] According to various reports and investigations 1,200–3,200 people were killed, up to 80,000 were interned, and up to 30,000 were tortured by his regime including women and children.

When you're in the middle of a Civil war, bad things happen. Pinochet's rule was far more benign than the rule of Abraham Lincoln, for example. Are you going to call Abraham Lincoln a fascist? The people Pinochet jailed or killed were communists attempting to overthrow the government of Chile and turn it into a Soviet client state. In other words, they were traitors to their country.

Under the influence of the free market-oriented neoliberal Chicago Boys, the new government also implemented economic reforms, including currency stabilization, tariff cutting, opening Chile's markets to global trade, restricting labor unions, privatizing social security, and the privatization of hundreds of state-controlled industries.

In other words, Pinochet reduced government control of the economy. The term "restricted labor unions" means the government didn't enforce labor union extortion against private businesses.

Perhaps most infamously, the CIA maintained contacts among the Chilean DINA intelligence service while DINA leaders, under Pinochet's direct command, led the multinational "anti-communism campaign" known as Operation Condor, resulting in assassinations of prominent politicians and activists of the legal left in various Latin American countries, in Washington, D.C., and in Europe (see section below). In particular, CIA contact with the head DINA, Manuel Contreras, was established soon after the coup (in 1974, during the Junta period prior to official transfer of Presidential powers to Pinochet);

Augusto Pinochet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Leftist propaganda. I don't see a lot of facts about this claim. It's all innuendo and speculation. Chile's involvement appears to be nil.

 

[bripat9643]

how many times do you have to be told that opposing communism doesn't automatically make you a right-winger?

Oh, right - communists would attack communism all the time, wouldn't they?

Yes they do. Leftist groups attack each other all the time. Russia and China have both attacked each other. China has attacked Vietnam. Vietnam invaded cambodia. Stalin executed millions of political opponents.

It's not something the right wing would ever do?

The right want's to emasculate government. It doesn't want to rule other people.

BriPat, I have to conclude at this point that this entire topic is simply beyond your comprehension.

That's hilarious coming from you. You can't even define what the term "right-wing" means. Yet, you're certain that fascists are right wingers.

I have provided you with swathes of information, everything from highly respected history books to direct quotes, and you simply ignore them or seem to not understand what they mean.

You've only mentioned historians. You haven't quoted a single thing from them. Actually, all you've done is mention a bunch of commies. It's hardly surprising that Marxist historians would claim Hitler was a right-winger.

You clearly have no intention of producing any facts or evidence to back up your inexplicable claims - probably because we both know no such evidence exists.

I suggest you go and read something like Ian Kershaw's 'Nazi Dictatorship', which covers Fascist theory in detail, and try and get up to speed.

Your belief that you have produced facts and evidence is charming. Why would I bother reading commie propaganda? So far all you have produced is a series of logical fallacies. The appeal to bogus authorities is your favorite.

 

[bripat9643]

You mean compared to refusing to use dictionaries because they are written by liberals?

Appeal to authority.

Next fallacy to dispose of, please.

Citing dictionaries and encyclopedias is an appeal to adulthood, education and common sense.

Anyone who believes that the Dictionary is the final authority on whether Hitler was a socialist isn't behaving like an adult. He's behaving like a moron.

Refusing to use sources is simply childish.

It is no coincidence that you are both hugely, massively confused about political terminology AND refuse to look at books.

I did use a source. You reject it. I reject your sources.

I'm not the slightest bit confused. I simply don't buy into your bullshit propaganda political terminology. It was all coined by Marxists.

 

[bripat9643]

Secondly, I am not saying Hitler is "objective".

I am claiming that using Hitler's own quotes to establish his politics would be a part of any objective analysis.

Here's a quote from Hitler:

""We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions."

--Adolf Hitler​

What does that "establish?"

You really are flailing away at anything at all here, aren't you?

What do you gain with this ridiculous pretence anyway? You must know that you are wrong.

I know that you are wrong and I know that you know you are wrong. You continue to post a series of logical fallacies to support your claims. If the facts were on your side, you would post some. Instead all you do is post the opinions of Marxists propagandists, which are utterly worthless.

 

[Saigon]

BriPat -

If you have something with even a shred of intellectual merit, I will respond to it.

By merit, I also mean something backed with facts, references and links.

 

[bripat9643]

BriPat -

If you have something with even a shred of intellectual merit, I will respond to it.

By merit, I also mean something backed with facts, references and links.

You define "intellectual merit" to mean, "it comes from some commie professor." The stuff you post is pure bullshit. Most of it is non falsifiable. Some commie claims Hitler had this goal or that goal when there isn't the slightest bit of evidence to support the claim one way or the other.

You're the one who claimed we should listen to "objective politicians," but then you want to dismiss everything Hitler had to say about the subject.

Who do you think you're fooling?

 

[bripat9643]

Stroessner

From that socialist newspaper, the Economist!

The style of government was a spoils system, underpinned by terror of a vicious network of spies and secret police. Foreign policy was a buddies' brigade with other dictators—Videla of Argentina, Pinochet of Chile—to co-ordinate counter-terrorism and assassinations. And the most famous tourist was Josef Mengele, the fugitive doctor of Auschwitz, riding into a village in the Paraguayan wilderness to be welcomed and protected.

General Stroessner used the Colorado (“Red&#8221 party, a right-wing body that became steadily more so as its moderate politicians were ejected. Membership of the party was compulsory for all teachers, doctors, engineers, officers or those who hoped for government service.

The Catholic church got restive, especially when the general ignored calls for land reform from the indigenous poor.

Alfredo Stroessner | The Economist

Paraguay was a leading participant in Operation Condor, a campaign of state-terror and security operations which were jointly conducted by the right-wing military governments of six Latin American countries (Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay and Brazil).

Alfredo Stroessner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All you're proving is that Stroessner was an evil guy. The left wing pretension that leftwingers can't be evil is laughable. Who could possibly be more evil than Stalin? He was the role model for evil dictators. Stalin set the precedent for everything you describe.

It's not clear what it means to have a "government by spoils system," but it sounds like crony capitalism. Right wingers do not support crony capitalism. If you look at the two parties in the US, the Democrats are the ones who support crony capitalism.

 

[Saigon]

you want to dismiss everything Hitler had to say about the subject.

Actually, I've been quoting him all thread, but you keep saying that he is not a credible source in Hitler.

In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated. ”

— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

“ In this way the struggle against the present State was placed on a higher plane than that of petty revenge and small conspiracies. It was elevated to the level of a spiritual struggle on behalf of a WELTANSCHAUUNG, for the destruction of Marxism in all its shapes and forms. ”

— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

“ In view of the complete subordination of the present State to Marxism, the National Socialist Movement feels all the more bound not only to prepare the way for the triumph of its idea by appealing to the reason and understanding of the public but also to take upon itself the responsibility of organizing its own defence against the terror of the International, which is intoxicated with its own victory.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Adolf Hitler's political views - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[thanatos144]

Love watching progressives try and spin the fact that socialism is facism and it is left wing

 

[bripat9643]

Hitler opposed Marxism. That's not synonymous with socialism.

Once again, you resort to a logical fallacy.

I already quoted Hitler saying he was a socialist. You have yet to post anything refuting that.

you want to dismiss everything Hitler had to say about the subject.

Actually, I've been quoting him all thread, but you keep saying that he is not a credible source in Hitler.

In the years 1913 and 1914 I expressed my opinion for the first time in various circles, some of which are now members of the National Socialist Movement, that the problem of how the future of the German nation can be secured is the problem of how Marxism can be exterminated. ”

— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

“ In this way the struggle against the present State was placed on a higher plane than that of petty revenge and small conspiracies. It was elevated to the level of a spiritual struggle on behalf of a WELTANSCHAUUNG, for the destruction of Marxism in all its shapes and forms. ”

— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

“ In view of the complete subordination of the present State to Marxism, the National Socialist Movement feels all the more bound not only to prepare the way for the triumph of its idea by appealing to the reason and understanding of the public but also to take upon itself the responsibility of organizing its own defence against the terror of the International, which is intoxicated with its own victory.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Adolf Hitler's political views - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Saigon]

I'm not the slightest bit confused. I simply don't buy into your bullshit propaganda political terminology. It was all coined by Marxists.

What you do not buy into are facts.

Have you noticed that on this thread you have not presented a single, linked verifiable fact?

You left confused several days ago, passed through self-satire and are now reaching the outskirts of bonkers.


btw. You know this is what I do for work, right? I have worked with political history and political theory for the past 20 years.

 

[Saigon]

I already quoted Hitler saying he was a socialist. You have yet to post anything refuting that.

Nazi stand for "National Socialist".

The term in German predates the widespread use of the word 'Socialist' to mean left wing.

I do appreciate that this is confusing, and it does require quite a bit of reading to really understand why Nazis came to use the word 'socialist', even as they did so against Hitler's wishes.

This is why Hitler always refers to Marxism and Communism as his enemies, while Franco and Mussolini use the term Socialism as the enemy from around 1934.

I explained this in detail yesterday, with links to material so that you could learn about the history of the term yourself. You refused to look at the material, of course.

btw. Many of my sources - I already named 6 of them - are German historians working at the time. They are not Marxists, and at least one was a member of the Nazi Party. Likewise people like Martin Heidigger, Tradul Junge and Albert Speer have talked at length about fascism and the right wing, and they were all party members. If you read books, you would know this.

Unless you have anything with some intellectual merit to post - i.e. linked, verifiable and backed by historical evidence - I'll leave you to rant to yourself.

 

[Saigon]

Love watching progressives try and spin the fact that socialism is facism and it is left wing

Then by all means try and present a case, and back it up with links, facts and quotes.

You can hardly do a worse job than BriPat or Sniper Fire!

 

[Political Junky]

Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.
- Benito Mussolini

 

[Political Junky]

The Liberal State is a mask behind which there is no face; it is a scaffolding behind which there is no building.
- Benito Mussolini

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

BriPat -

If you have something with even a shred of intellectual merit, I will respond to it.

By merit, I also mean something backed with facts, references and links.

Don’t hold your breath.

 

[Saigon]

BriPat -

If you have something with even a shred of intellectual merit, I will respond to it.

By merit, I also mean something backed with facts, references and links.

Don’t hold your breath.

After 22 pages, there seems to be a clear pattern of BriPat's just saying "No, that is Marxist" to anything at all that is presented.

Dictionaries are Marxist....who knew?!

Hitler, Speer, Franco and Heidigger are not reliable sources on what Fascism means....it's an interesting position to take!

 

[Annie]

Fascism is right wing. So is theocracy, monarchy, oligarchy, aristocracy, plutocracy, corporatism and military rule.

Thanks for outing yourself and clarifying your position.

 

[Obamanation]

Fascism is neither right nor left. Morons....

 

[bripat9643]

I already quoted Hitler saying he was a socialist. You have yet to post anything refuting that.

Nazi stand for "National Socialist".

That isn't what I quoted, nitwit. You keep ignoring what I quoted because you have no answer for it.

The term in German predates the widespread use of the word 'Socialist' to mean left wing.

I do appreciate that this is confusing, and it does require quite a bit of reading to really understand why Nazis came to use the word 'socialist', even as they did so against Hitler's wishes.

This is why Hitler always refers to Marxism and Communism as his enemies, while Franco and Mussolini use the term Socialism as the enemy from around 1934.

I explained this in detail yesterday, with links to material so that you could learn about the history of the term yourself. You refused to look at the material, of course.

ROLF! Yeah, right. In Germany "socialism" doesn't mean "socialism." We're all swallowing that. You posted no links to any material that proves the word "socialism" doesn't mean "socialism" in Germany. In fact, the word is translated from German. If the word used didn't translate to "socialism," then why did the translators use the word "socialism?" The answer is that you're full of shit.

btw. Many of my sources - I already named 6 of them - are German historians working at the time. They are not Marxists, and at least one was a member of the Nazi Party. Likewise people like Martin Heidigger, Tradul Junge and Albert Speer have talked at length about fascism and the right wing, and they were all party members. If you read books, you would know this.

IF they said something that supports your position, then quote it. Posting their names doesn't prove a thing. The career of Albert Speer proves the Nazis were socialists because he was put in charge of running the German economy. Government bureaucrats don't run the economy under capitalism. That's a feature of socialism.

Unless you have anything with some intellectual merit to post - i.e. linked, verifiable and backed by historical evidence - I'll leave you to rant to yourself.

You'll excuse us if we don't accept your definition of the term "intellectual merit."