Fascism Is as Fascism Does

[Idadunno]

Maybe the point is that some people seek conspiracy theories wherever they can twist them. It's like playing pin the pig tail on the donkey.

 

[PoliticalChic]

22. The Fascism of the FDR era, the 30’s, was hardly new on the scene. In fact, by the 1920’s, American intellectuals, disappointed in what they perceived as the failures of classical liberalism allowed themselves to think that Fascism was the path toward their ideals, and the same path allowed them to stumble into Stalinism some time later.

The jewels of the new thinking, according to these elites, was comprehensive state control, planning and direction, as long as the goals remained “a conscious, intelligent ordering of society,” as Columbia professor and disciple of John Dewey, Herbert W. Schneider stated.

American progressives, pragmatists, viewed Fascism’s emphasis on political repression as a regrettable but entirely understandable corollary.


Of course, today’s denials should remind one of Huey Long’s dictum: “When America gets Fascism it will call it anti-Fascism.”






Waldo Frank’s analysis in 1934:

"The NRA is the beginning of American Fascism. But unlike Italy and Germany, democratic parliamentarianism has for generations been strong in the Anglo-Saxon world; it is a tribal institution. Therefore, a Fascism that disposes of it, rather than sharpens and exploits it, is not to be expected in North America or Britain.

Fascism may be so gradual in the United States that most voters will not be aware of its existence.

The true Fascist leaders will not be present imitators of German Fuhrer and Italian condottieri, prancing in silver shirts. They will be judicious, black-frocked gentlemen; graduates of the best universities; disciples of Nicholas Murray Butler and Walter Lippmann."
Liberal Fascism | National Review Online




“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself”...and fascism.

You are apparently just a little to dense to realize that Fascist movements all start from the bottom up, not from the top down. The all start as popular grass roots organizations, sort of like the Tea Party. Not much of a historian......are you.

"...too dense...."





Any political system in which the government is in charge of determining individual freedom is tyranny.

That includes socialism, communism, liberalism, progressivism,....and fascism.




And, clearly both my understanding of history and of grammar outshines yours.

In Thoreau’s 'On the duty of Civil Disobedience,' he states: “ There will never be a really free and enlightened State until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all of its own power and authority are derived.”

 

[DriftingSand]

Fascism:

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Fascism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

FDR and Obama are only one step away from being literal fascists. I don't believe they "forcibly suppressed" their opposition but someone may be able to provide examples to the contrary.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The fasces is on a sculpture of George Washington that was sculpted in 1785. It is a Roman symbol of power, authority, justice, and strength, that the new government adopted, which is what this country stands for. It does not pertain to individualism, but the country as a whole. We are a strong country.

And your point is...what?

That it was not resurrected as a modernRoman Empire by Mussolini and the Fascists, and has become a symbol of fascism?

Let's give you a bit of history that you seem to have missed.


1. Sometime after the First World War, the Babylon-Armageddon made its way into political theory. Each version had a people of God, under attack. There was the proletariat for the Bolsheviks and Stalinists; the children of the Roman wolf for Mussolini’s Fascists; the Warriors of Christ the King for Franco’s Phalange, and the Aryan race for the Nazis.


2. Mussolini incorporated the ideas of Georges Sorel’s syndicalism to create his brand of fascism.

a. Syndicalism is similar to socialism but included violent, direction action.

b. Syndicalists believed in rule by revolutionary trade unions, from the French word ‘syndicat.’ The Italian word ‘fascio’ means bundle, but was commonly used as a synonym for unions.

c. Syndicalism proposed that society could be divided by professional sectors of the economy; this idea influenced FDR’s New Deal.

Hold it there now Chica! I've been reading your pseudo intellectual claptrap all through this thread. You got sum splain' to do!

1. Syndicalism is an ECONOMIC system NOT a POLITICAL system.

2. FDR was not a syndicalist.

3. FDR was not a fascist.

4. FDR was a dyed in the wool socialist, your BS notwithstanding!

5. If you or others want an example of a President who had actual fascist leanings, look no further than Bush 43...examples follow!

6. Look up the theory of the "Unitary Presidency", read it and understand it!

7. Read Bush 43's signing statements and see how often he referenced and evoked his powers under the crackpot theory of a unitary presidency!

8. Read and understand the National Security Presidential Directive #51 (NSPD 51) Bush 43 signed in May 2007 giving the President the powers of a dictator!

9. #6, 7 & 8 should be enough to disclose the true political bent of the Bush 43 administrations when viewed through the prism of the surge of Nationalism cheered on with the prompts of the National Guv'ment post 9/11.

10. Your thinly veiled partisanship of this thread is nothing but an attempt to discredit the faction you and your ilk hold in unhealthy contempt, and trying to link the misguided FDR to fascism is beyond the pale.


Ya gonna Splain' or Refrain?

"... pseudo intellectual claptrap...."

"....fascist leanings, look no further than Bush 43.."

".... your BS...

".... Your thinly veiled partisanship.....zzzzzz'

The concept of irony has spent the entirety of its existence waiting for you to come along and give it meaning.




Did you vote for the failure in the White House?
So much for any possibility of political acumen on your part.

 

[PoliticalChic]

And your point is...what?

That it was not resurrected as a modernRoman Empire by Mussolini and the Fascists, and has become a symbol of fascism?

Let's give you a bit of history that you seem to have missed.


1. Sometime after the First World War, the Babylon-Armageddon made its way into political theory. Each version had a people of God, under attack. There was the proletariat for the Bolsheviks and Stalinists; the children of the Roman wolf for Mussolini’s Fascists; the Warriors of Christ the King for Franco’s Phalange, and the Aryan race for the Nazis.


2. Mussolini incorporated the ideas of Georges Sorel’s syndicalism to create his brand of fascism.

a. Syndicalism is similar to socialism but included violent, direction action.

b. Syndicalists believed in rule by revolutionary trade unions, from the French word ‘syndicat.’ The Italian word ‘fascio’ means bundle, but was commonly used as a synonym for unions.

c. Syndicalism proposed that society could be divided by professional sectors of the economy; this idea influenced FDR’s New Deal.

Hold it there now Chica! I've been reading your pseudo intellectual claptrap all through this thread. You got sum splain' to do!

1. Syndicalism is an ECONOMIC system NOT a POLITICAL system.

2. FDR was not a syndicalist.

3. FDR was not a fascist.

4. FDR was a dyed in the wool socialist, your BS notwithstanding!

5. If you or others want an example of a President who had actual fascist leanings, look no further than Bush 43...examples follow!

6. Look up the theory of the "Unitary Presidency", read it and understand it!

7. Read Bush 43's signing statements and see how often he referenced and evoked his powers under the crackpot theory of a unitary presidency!

8. Read and understand the National Security Presidential Directive #51 (NSPD 51) Bush 43 signed in May 2007 giving the President the powers of a dictator!

9. #6, 7 & 8 should be enough to disclose the true political bent of the Bush 43 administrations when viewed through the prism of the surge of Nationalism cheered on with the prompts of the National Guv'ment post 9/11.

10. Your thinly veiled partisanship of this thread is nothing but an attempt to discredit the faction you and your ilk hold in unhealthy contempt, and trying to link the misguided FDR to fascism is beyond the pale.


Ya gonna Splain' or Refrain?

PC tried to confuse the issue with spin under the guise of history, and failed miserably at both. She is a champion of talking points void of facts.

"....and failed miserably...."

Must you repeat what was written on each and every one of your report cards?

Be original.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Do the Liberals in this this thread know that they lave a Local Government?

A Local Government that they've already paid for and can solve many of the problems that arise in their town WITHOUT Federal Interference?

Do the Liberals in this thread even know WHERE their seat of local government IS and visited it even ONCE?

Why do they keep inviting and expecting the f*ckin' Feds to get involved all the time?

You don't seem to know what the topic of this thread is.

The topic of this thread is the mentally retarded contention that FDR was a fascist because some federal buildings built in the 1930's used the fasces symbols as part of their outward design.

Discuss that if you want to be on topic.

In fairness to you it may have become confusing as to what the actual subject of this thread was since even the author of it has long since fled from its original stupidity.

True.

The premise of the thread also fails as a post hoc fallacy. Conservatives are infamous for contriving bizarre and wrong conclusions from all manner of information.

Looking for the source of failure?

It was in your education.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Does the effort to demonize President Roosevelt, eighty some years after the fact, strike anyone as,

if nothing else,

a bit untimely? PoliticalChic has that wife-in-a-bad-marriage quality, you know, how the old lady wants to start arguments with you about shit that happened years ago...

Give. it. a. rest. Go watch your stories or something...

Now, now,.....let's be accurate: demonize is somewhat over the top.

Revelatory.....that is what characterizes this thread.



Everything I've posted about Roosevelt is true.

I suggest you apply the thread using the following hermeneutics:

"If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....it's probably ....a fascist."




Now, as you bring up 'demonize,' Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Fascism:

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Fascism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

FDR and Obama are only one step away from being literal fascists. I don't believe they "forcibly suppressed" their opposition but someone may be able to provide examples to the contrary.

IRS and NSA beg to differ

 

[PoliticalChic]

Does the effort to demonize President Roosevelt, eighty some years after the fact, strike anyone as,

if nothing else,

a bit untimely? PoliticalChic has that wife-in-a-bad-marriage quality, you know, how the old lady wants to start arguments with you about shit that happened years ago...

Give. it. a. rest. Go watch your stories or something...

Yes.

As well as ridiculous and obsessive.

The OP is obviously the typical ignorant reactionary paleocon seeking – and failing – to undermine the success that was the New Deal, in addition to settled and accepted post-Lochner Commerce Clause jurisprudence.

The OP and those of her ilk need to accept the fact that this is no longer the 19th Century, that the 'liberty to contract' is an irrelevant anachronism, and that the world is far too complex a place today for the simplistic and naïve dogma of the nostalgic right.

"The OP and those of her ilk...."

Hey.....just one darn minute: I have no "ilk"....


...you can consider me a limited edition.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Sorry, hater dupes, we're not going back to elderly/UE misery, poorhouses and potters fields...so brainwashed and misinformed. But thanks for the corrupt SECOND Pub Great World Depression, which is the actual reason for the chaotic world and so many on assistance, not communism, chumps of the greedy idiot rich....

" ...we're not going back to elderly/UE misery, poorhouses and potters fields...so brainwashed and misinformed."


Not everyone wished to travel on FDR's Fascism Express.

From an earlier post that you seem to have overlooked:


Who throws folks in gulags for minor disagreements? Oh...right....dictators.

It's easy to be a dictator when you refuse to recognize the Constitution, and have the Supreme Court under your thumb.....see Wickard v. Filburn



a. People were beginning to recognize the fascist nature of the code when they saw "... the jailing of a New Jersey tailor named Jack Magid, whosecrime was pressing a suit for thirty-five cents when the code fixed the price at forty cents."
The Supreme Court, n May 27, 1935, declared the NRA unconstitutional.
(The court ruled that Congress had delegated the law-making authority to the President and the NRA.)

 

[PoliticalChic]

The fasces is on a sculpture of George Washington that was sculpted in 1785. It is a Roman symbol of power, authority, justice, and strength, that the new government adopted, which is what this country stands for. It does not pertain to individualism, but the country as a whole. We are a strong country.

And your point is...what?

That it was not resurrected as a modernRoman Empire by Mussolini and the Fascists, and has become a symbol of fascism?

Let's give you a bit of history that you seem to have missed.


1. Sometime after the First World War, the Babylon-Armageddon made its way into political theory. Each version had a people of God, under attack. There was the proletariat for the Bolsheviks and Stalinists; the children of the Roman wolf for Mussolini’s Fascists; the Warriors of Christ the King for Franco’s Phalange, and the Aryan race for the Nazis.


2. Mussolini incorporated the ideas of Georges Sorel’s syndicalism to create his brand of fascism.

a. Syndicalism is similar to socialism but included violent, direction action.

b. Syndicalists believed in rule by revolutionary trade unions, from the French word ‘syndicat.’ The Italian word ‘fascio’ means bundle, but was commonly used as a synonym for unions.

c. Syndicalism proposed that society could be divided by professional sectors of the economy; this idea influenced FDR’s New Deal.

And since the Fasces is also the symbol of the US Senate that must mean our elected representatives are all Fascists........right professor?

Not necessarily.....but your post means you're a dope.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Really? I detect the overpowering stench of conspiracy theory nut job.

I detect the mutterings of a retard who doesn't realize how thoroughly brainwashed he is.

Begs the question: Why are all you people such superficial unthinking buffoons?

Let's see.....the posts are supported by Schivelbusch, Mussolini, Hugh Johnson, Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty, Hitler's National Socialist newspapers, Chesly Manly, Herbert Hoover, Burt Folsom, Michael Sweeney, Waldo Frank....


On the other side.....you.



"....superficial unthinking buffoons?"

Raise your paw.

 

[PoliticalChic]

"...internet inspired paranoia plus half wit conspiracy theories...

Ignoring facts is what is giving your problem.....either that or the inability to process same.

I see your brain is giving you the silent treatment today.




OK....let's call you out, moron.....

I've constructed what...six panels in this thread, so far......


....find any errors in 'em.

Go ahead....find any.


But....be careful....if this is the first time you've tried to think you could wind up with an aneurysm!





Number seven coming right up, dope.

I found the one relevant error in your opening rant.

FDR did not construct buildings in the 30's that were meant to copy Mussolini.

That is crackpottery.

Try not to clutter up the thread with true facts.

"...true facts." ????



Moron.

 

[PoliticalChic]

and where did Mussolini get the symbolic fasces from??? Ancient Rome..it is a symbol of authority..

And....your point, beside the one on your head?


Would you like to excuse the swastika based on an earlier connection, too?



Here's a novel idea: comment on the truth of everything I've posted.

There is no truth in anything you've posted because it's all skewed with ideology.

Wait.....let me check out all of the examples you've given.....


hmmmm.......


You didn't provide any?


Too busy.....or too stupid?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Any who have studied the history of the last century understand how very similar the economic policies of Mussolini and of Franklin Roosevelt were.

Economic policies?
....it goes well beyond economic policies. In many ways, elites desired this nation to mirror Fascist Italy....

The authoritarian designs of Italian government structures were also attractive to Roosevelt, as a way of symbolizing the strength of all-powerful state authority.

.

Yes , we agree.

Anytime the government ignores INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS and supports the "common good" , society, the tribe, etc, you have fascism.

.

There are only two basic views....the one that honors the striving of individuals, and the big government command-and-control view.

It's clear where you and I stand on this divide.



"1. Oscar Wilde: “Under socialism…there will be no people living in fetid dens and fetid rags, and bringing up unhealthy, hunger pinched children in the midst of impossible and absolutely repulsive surroundings…Each member of society will share in the general prosperity and happiness of the society…”

2. Marxism rested on the assumption that the condition of the working classes would grow ever worse under capitalism, that there would be but two classes: one small and rich, the other vast and increasingly impoverished, and revolution would be the anodyne that would result in the “common good.” But by the early 20th century, it was clear that this assumption was completely wrong! Under capitalism, the standard of living of all was improving: prices falling, incomes rising, health and sanitation improving, lengthening of life spans, diets becoming more varied, the new jobs created in industry paid more than most could make in agriculture, housing improved, and middle class industrialists and business owners displaced nobility and gentry as heroes.

3. These economic advances continued throughout the period of the rise of socialist ideology. The poor didn’t get poorer because the rich were getting richer (a familiar socialist refrain even today) as the socialists had predicted. Instead, the underlying reality was that capitalism had created the first societies in history in which living standards were rising in all sectors of society."
From a speech by Rev. Robert A. Sirico, President, Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty.
Delivered at Hillsdale College, October 27, 2006




'The common good,' it turns out, is 'the common bad.'

 

[Skylar]

Fascism:

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Fascism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

FDR and Obama are only one step away from being literal fascists. I don't believe they "forcibly suppressed" their opposition but someone may be able to provide examples to the contrary.

Not even close. You guys are just tossing the word 'fascism' around as a pejorative. The meaning seems to be completely lost on you. Read the Manifesto of Racial Scientists to get the real feel of state sanctioned racism. Its nothing we have.

Dictatorship is not what we have, or anything close to it. You don't have to worry about the courts overruling a favored law under a dictatorship. You don't have to worry about votes. You don't have to worry about elections.

And the forcible suppression practiced in actual fascism is systematic and regular beatings of the opposition, mutilation, murder, kidnapping and mass imprisonment. Same with the press. We do not have this.

Belligerent nationalism is like American Exceptionalism on insane, heart shredding steroids. Where the racial and social superiority of the society justifies its dominance of the lesser peoples and nations. We don't have that either.

These terms have meanings. You can imagine new ones if you'd like. But they don't really have much relevance to what the words actually mean.

 

[Discombobulated]

I detect the mutterings of a retard who doesn't realize how thoroughly brainwashed he is.

Begs the question: Why are all you people such superficial unthinking buffoons?

Let's see.....the posts are supported by Schivelbusch, Mussolini, Hugh Johnson, Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty, Hitler's National Socialist newspapers, Chesly Manly, Herbert Hoover, Burt Folsom, Michael Sweeney, Waldo Frank....


On the other side.....you.



"....superficial unthinking buffoons?"

Raise your paw.

I guess that just goes to show that you can't learn nearly as much as you thought from reading abridged excerpts.

 

[Skylar]

Any who have studied the history of the last century understand how very similar the economic policies of Mussolini and of Franklin Roosevelt were.

Economic policies?
....it goes well beyond economic policies. In many ways, elites desired this nation to mirror Fascist Italy....

The authoritarian designs of Italian government structures were also attractive to Roosevelt, as a way of symbolizing the strength of all-powerful state authority.

.

Yes , we agree.

Anytime the government ignores INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS and supports the "common good" , society, the tribe, etc, you have fascism.

.

There are only two basic views....the one that honors the striving of individuals, and the big government command-and-control view.

Um, no. There are more than two views. You're engaged in what psychologists refer to as 'clefting'. Where you are dividing the world into those who think exactly as you do, and enemies. Imagining a world where only two points of view exist or could exist. The classic 'you're either with us, or you're with the enemy' perspective.

When in reality, we have a myriad of political philosophies, with nuanced degrees between the polar opposites you acknowledge. For example: regulated capitalism. Why might someone want such a middle position?

Capitalism is inherently unstable, prone to boom and bust cycles. Regulation helps mitigate this instability and extend periods of economic growth. Compare the 80 or so years before the institution of the Federal Reserve, and you'll find that the rate of depression or recession were cut in half by the Fed's institution.

As economies thrive on stability. As do a strong middle class.

This rational middle position is probably one of the more popular in politics and economics. Yet in your current state, you can't acknowledge it even exists. You're uselessly and pointlessly crippling yourself by failing to recognize the vast room in between the ideologically pure extremes.......with the overwhelming majority folks standing 'in between', while comparatively few reside at the fringes.

It's clear where you and I stand on this divide.

What's clear is that you're thinking in black and white binary, where there is only the purest white and the darkest black. And nothing in between. That tells us a lot about you.

And almost nothing about the world we actually live in.

 

[Discombobulated]

And....your point, beside the one on your head?


Would you like to excuse the swastika based on an earlier connection, too?



Here's a novel idea: comment on the truth of everything I've posted.

There is no truth in anything you've posted because it's all skewed with ideology.

Wait.....let me check out all of the examples you've given.....


hmmmm.......


You didn't provide any?


Too busy.....or too stupid?

Examples of what? More history skewed with ideology?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Fascism:

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Fascism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

FDR and Obama are only one step away from being literal fascists. I don't believe they "forcibly suppressed" their opposition but someone may be able to provide examples to the contrary.

Not even close. You guys are just tossing the word 'fascism' around as a pejorative. The meaning seems to be completely lost on you. Read the Manifesto of Racial Scientists to get the real feel of state sanctioned racism. Its nothing we have.

Dictatorship is not what we have, or anything close to it. You don't have to worry about the courts overruling a favored law under a dictatorship. You don't have to worry about votes. You don't have to worry about elections.

And the forcible suppression practiced in actual fascism is systematic and regular beatings of the opposition, mutilation, murder, kidnapping and mass imprisonment. Same with the press. We do not have this.

Belligerent nationalism is like American Exceptionalism on insane, heart shredding steroids. Where the racial and social superiority of the society justifies its dominance of the lesser peoples and nations. We don't have that either.

These terms have meanings. You can imagine new ones if you'd like. But they don't really have much relevance to what the words actually mean.

"Dictatorship is not what we have, or anything close to it. You don't have to worry about the courts overruling a favored law under a dictatorship. You don't have to worry about votes. You don't have to worry about elections."


How about you pick up the works of J.L. Talmon.....




1. The latest variation of totalitarianism is neither religious, nor even political: it is cultural. “Totalitarian democracy” is a term made famous by J. L. Talmon to refer to a system of government in which lawfully elected representatives maintain the integrity of a nation state whose citizens, while granted the right to vote, have little or no participation in the decision-making process of the government.

a. Cultural totalitarianism is rule by the individual freed from all external authority or constraints, morality fully privatized with Judeo-Christian traditions under attack.

b. Moral and cultural relativism are predominant; no lifestyle is better than any other.

c. Paradoxically, relativist doctrine becomes absolutely unassailable: it brooks no challenges or deviations.



2. Mr. Talmon is concerned with drawing a distinction between “liberal democracy” and “totalitarian democracy,” both of which he sees as arising in the 18th century and coming into collision in the 20th. “Liberal democracy” regards politics as a matter of trial and error, and political systems as pragmatic contrivances; it is solicitous of individualism and recognizes that there are legitimate areas of human activity outside the realm of the political.

“Totalitarian democracy” preaches absolute truth and a messianic vision of a “pre-ordained, harmonious and perfect scheme of things, to which men are irresistibly driven, and at which they are bound to arrive”; its politics is but one aspect of an all-embracing philosophy. Both “liberal” and “totalitarian” democracy affirm the value of liberty; but for the first, liberty means individual spontaneity, for the second, reconciliation to an absolute, collective purpose—a kind of self-willed slavery, in fact. Both versions of “democracy” arose in the thinking of the 18th-century philosophes, but “liberal democracy” retreated before the bloody attempt to establish the City of God on earth and took refuge in the matter-of-factness of Anglo-American practice, while “totalitarian democracy” culminated eventually in Stalinism.

There are, according to Talmon, three stages in the development of “totalitarian democracy” in the French Revolution. First, there was the Rousseauist intellectual background, which rejected all existing institutions as relics of despotism and clerical obscurantism, and which demanded a complete renovation of society so that it would be an expression of the General Will—this last being no mere consensus but an objective standard of virtue and reason that imperfect humanity must be coerced into obeying in order to enjoy a bonheur de médiocrité for which it was as yet ill-prepared.
Second, there was the Reign of Terror, when an “enlightened” vanguard of Jacobins undertook to impose the General Will—when Robespierre acted out his role as “the bloody hand of Rousseau,” as Heine called him.
Third, there was the post-Thermidorean conspiracy of Babeuf and his associates, which added to political messianism the doctrine of economic communism, thereby pointing the way to Marx.
« The Rise of Totalitarian Democracy, by J. L. Talmon Commentary Magazine