Fascism

[Divine Wind]

You love to hurl insults but don't expect them back...

Incorrect, but I can see why you want to believe this. How else can you justify constantly posting ad hominems?

Not sure why you are so vested in believing unfettered capitalism never existed, but obviously you won't be dissuaded regardless of facts or links presented.

I think the Nazi party beat them to it. You seem to know their party better than they did.

Nazis have always been seen as RWers until the last decade or so. People over 50 know this to be true. As several have posted on this and similar threads, a more accurate viewpoint is that fascism was highly authoritarian with some elements of socialism, but definitely leaning right. Why the far Right seeks to label fascists as far Lefties is interesting even though it is wrong.

 

[Iceweasel]

You love to hurl insults but don't expect them back...

Incorrect, but I can see why you want to believe this. How else can you justify constantly posting ad hominems?

Not sure why you are so vested in believing unfettered capitalism never existed, but obviously you won't be dissuaded regardless of facts or links presented.

I think the Nazi party beat them to it. You seem to know their party better than they did.

Nazis have always been seen as RWers until the last decade or so. People over 50 know this to be true. As several have posted on this and similar threads, a more accurate viewpoint is that fascism was highly authoritarian with some elements of socialism, but definitely leaning right. Why the far Right seeks to label fascists as far Lefties is interesting even though it is wrong.

You throw out graphs and assume they will be taken as gospel. That's pretty stupid. A link isn't a fact. If you are too dense to find content that supports your assertion that's not my problem. And again, I have to point out left and right are relative terms. Left and right of what? The right here doesn't want the same thing as Nazi Germany so using the terms indiscriminately has no meaning.

As far as the US goes, the left very definitely wants bigger government and more central government control. So an economy that supports it is going to be labeled leftist here. Maybe you should read the thread instead of running on flatulence?

 

[Divine Wind]

You throw out graphs and assume they will be taken as gospel. That's pretty stupid. A link isn't a fact.....

and you throw out opinion and expect everyone to believe you. Got it. Thanks.

 

[2aguy]

Fascism controls the people through authoritarianism and nationalism. Not socialism.

Whatever type of socialism works....fascism will use....

Socialism is the elimination of classes, collective ownership of all property and means of production. Fascism is not. It's an authoritarian rightwing ideology that utilizes some aspects of socialism. That doesn't make it "socialist".

Now you're playing word games. Both socialism and fascism have an elite political class. You're pretending the socialist elite political class doesn't exist when it clearly does

Defacto - yes, but I'm talking about just the ideology not how it ended up working with real human beings. Just like capitalism without regulation actually stifles competition and has no moral compass.

You're using "regulation" as a euphemism for government control, and that's not capitalism it's socialism. There is no need for "regulation" and it doesn't exist. Regulation is government controlling companies in advance.

What we do need are civil and criminal courts for when they do wrong. That's not what you are talking about. You're talking about controlling wages, controlling benefits, controlling healthcare, telling companies what they are allowed to do ... socialism ...

Thank you....that is exactly the way the term "regulation" should be addressed and you did it well.........thank you.

 

[2aguy]

You love to hurl insults but don't expect them back...

Incorrect, but I can see why you want to believe this. How else can you justify constantly posting ad hominems?

Not sure why you are so vested in believing unfettered capitalism never existed, but obviously you won't be dissuaded regardless of facts or links presented.

I think the Nazi party beat them to it. You seem to know their party better than they did.

Nazis have always been seen as RWers until the last decade or so. People over 50 know this to be true. As several have posted on this and similar threads, a more accurate viewpoint is that fascism was highly authoritarian with some elements of socialism, but definitely leaning right. Why the far Right seeks to label fascists as far Lefties is interesting even though it is wrong.

That chart is wrong........nazism is socialism.....it is left wing. How does libertarianism...and American Conservatism, with the belief in limited government and individual rights even come close to nazism? and you are saying they lie on the same side of the line.........

The left wing will jump through whatever hoops they have to....contort through whatever yoga postures they have to...to hide the fact that the mass murder of 100 million innocent men, women and children starting about 1917....the modern period.....were all done by different styles of socialism........

That is why they have to lie all the time.....

 

[2aguy]

You love to hurl insults but don't expect them back...

Incorrect, but I can see why you want to believe this. How else can you justify constantly posting ad hominems?

Not sure why you are so vested in believing unfettered capitalism never existed, but obviously you won't be dissuaded regardless of facts or links presented.

I think the Nazi party beat them to it. You seem to know their party better than they did.

Nazis have always been seen as RWers until the last decade or so. People over 50 know this to be true. As several have posted on this and similar threads, a more accurate viewpoint is that fascism was highly authoritarian with some elements of socialism, but definitely leaning right. Why the far Right seeks to label fascists as far Lefties is interesting even though it is wrong.

You love to hurl insults but don't expect them back...

Incorrect, but I can see why you want to believe this. How else can you justify constantly posting ad hominems?

Not sure why you are so vested in believing unfettered capitalism never existed, but obviously you won't be dissuaded regardless of facts or links presented.

I think the Nazi party beat them to it. You seem to know their party better than they did.

Nazis have always been seen as RWers until the last decade or so. People over 50 know this to be true. As several have posted on this and similar threads, a more accurate viewpoint is that fascism was highly authoritarian with some elements of socialism, but definitely leaning right. Why the far Right seeks to label fascists as far Lefties is interesting even though it is wrong.

Putting Thatcher, and Friedman on the same side as hitler.....you guys are out of your fucking minds......there is nothing in common between the two belief systems.....again, the nazis were socialists...national socialists who didn't care about international socialism.....they are left wing.......and eventually, socialism does run out of money and the worst of the worst socialists use that to become totalitarian........

 

[danielpalos]

Fascism; our wars on crime, drugs, poverty, and terror; only the right wing, never gets it.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Trump to Bypass Mainstream Media, Take Message Direct to the People


#3 Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause;

#6 Controlled Mass Media

Two of the warning signs of 14-points of fascism to be aware of!

Oh, and how is this for transparency?

Trump knocks House GOP after surprise vote to gut ethics panel

YES MORONS, IT CAN AND IS ALREADY HAPPENING HERE!

 

[danielpalos]

Should we ask, Kentucky Colonels, for leadership advice?

 

[2aguy]

Trump to Bypass Mainstream Media, Take Message Direct to the People


#3 Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause;

#6 Controlled Mass Media

Two of the warning signs of 14-points of fascism to be aware of!

Oh, and how is this for transparency?

Trump knocks House GOP after surprise vote to gut ethics panel

YES MORONS, IT CAN AND IS ALREADY HAPPENING HERE!

Yes.....and how in control of the mass media was Trump during the election? On whose side did the media actually operate.......asking hilary to okay their stories, allowing her to change quotes......

The left wing media is already working with the fascist democrat party........Trump has no control over the media....

 

[Contumacious]

That's not an insult. It's an accurate description of what you're trying to do.

The issue under discussion in this thread is whether fascism is "rightwing." If that yardstick measures anything, it measures the amount of government control supported by a given ideology. If it doesn't measure that, then what does it measure? You already avoided answering that question.

According to the left/right paradigm, fascism is leftwing, not rightwing.

That is INCORRECT


Fascism can be either from the Left or the Right.

The Fascist Threat

In reviewing the history of the rise of fascism, Flynn wrote:

“One of the most baffling phenomena of fascism is the almost incredible collaboration between men of the extreme Right and the extreme Left in its creation. The explanation lies at this point. Both Right and Left joined in this urge for regulation. The motives, the arguments, and the forms of expression were different but all drove in the same direction. And this was that the economic system must be controlled in its essential functions and this control must be exercised by the producing groups."

Flynn writes that the right and the left disagreed on precisely who fits the bill as the producer group. The left tends to celebrate laborers as producers. The right tends to favor business owners as producers. The political compromise — and it still goes on today – was to cartelize both.

Do you yet understand why fascism can't be both left or right? Do you understand the problem with that line of thinking? Fascism is a collectivist government type. Thus is is leftist. The opposite of a collectivist government type is an individualist system. The most extreme version of that is anarchy. Those are your two extremes. Fascism, socialism, communism, are ALL leftwing. Anarchy is rightwing.

HUH?

Fascism is the system of government that cartelizes the private sector, centrally plans the economy to subsidize producers, exalts the police State as the source of order, denies fundamental rights and liberties to individuals, and makes the executive State the unlimited master of society.

So it doesn't matter whether the collectivists are left or right wingers

Here in the US , anti-"drugs" laws, anti-prostitution , anti-pornography military conscription and others originate from the right wing. So the right wingers are as capable as the left wingers to create a POLICE STATE in order to control and regulate whatever they decide they do not want.


.

None of those things creates a police state, so your syllogism is bullshit.

HUH?
The Drug War, Mass Incarceration and Race

With less than 5 percent of the world’s population but nearly 25 percent of its incarcerated population, the United States imprisons more people than any other nation in the world – largely due to the war on drugs.

The Police State: Know It When You See It


.

The Gargantuan Police State brought to a neighborhood near you by the "anti-government" Conservatives:


The Drug War, Mass Incarceration and Race

With less than 5 percent of the world’s population but nearly 25 percent of its incarcerated population, the United States imprisons more people than any other nation in the world – largely due to the war on drugs.

The Police State: Know It When You See It



.

 

[2aguy]

That is INCORRECT


Fascism can be either from the Left or the Right.

The Fascist Threat

In reviewing the history of the rise of fascism, Flynn wrote:

“One of the most baffling phenomena of fascism is the almost incredible collaboration between men of the extreme Right and the extreme Left in its creation. The explanation lies at this point. Both Right and Left joined in this urge for regulation. The motives, the arguments, and the forms of expression were different but all drove in the same direction. And this was that the economic system must be controlled in its essential functions and this control must be exercised by the producing groups."

Flynn writes that the right and the left disagreed on precisely who fits the bill as the producer group. The left tends to celebrate laborers as producers. The right tends to favor business owners as producers. The political compromise — and it still goes on today – was to cartelize both.

Do you yet understand why fascism can't be both left or right? Do you understand the problem with that line of thinking? Fascism is a collectivist government type. Thus is is leftist. The opposite of a collectivist government type is an individualist system. The most extreme version of that is anarchy. Those are your two extremes. Fascism, socialism, communism, are ALL leftwing. Anarchy is rightwing.

HUH?

Fascism is the system of government that cartelizes the private sector, centrally plans the economy to subsidize producers, exalts the police State as the source of order, denies fundamental rights and liberties to individuals, and makes the executive State the unlimited master of society.

So it doesn't matter whether the collectivists are left or right wingers

Here in the US , anti-"drugs" laws, anti-prostitution , anti-pornography military conscription and others originate from the right wing. So the right wingers are as capable as the left wingers to create a POLICE STATE in order to control and regulate whatever they decide they do not want.


.

None of those things creates a police state, so your syllogism is bullshit.

HUH?
The Drug War, Mass Incarceration and Race

With less than 5 percent of the world’s population but nearly 25 percent of its incarcerated population, the United States imprisons more people than any other nation in the world – largely due to the war on drugs.

The Police State: Know It When You See It


.

The Gargantuan Police State brought to a neighborhood near you by the "anti-government" Conservatives:


The Drug War, Mass Incarceration and Race

With less than 5 percent of the world’s population but nearly 25 percent of its incarcerated population, the United States imprisons more people than any other nation in the world – largely due to the war on drugs.

The Police State: Know It When You See It



.

Yeah...don't sell drugs and you don't go to jail.....

 

[danielpalos]

Do you yet understand why fascism can't be both left or right? Do you understand the problem with that line of thinking? Fascism is a collectivist government type. Thus is is leftist. The opposite of a collectivist government type is an individualist system. The most extreme version of that is anarchy. Those are your two extremes. Fascism, socialism, communism, are ALL leftwing. Anarchy is rightwing.

HUH?

Fascism is the system of government that cartelizes the private sector, centrally plans the economy to subsidize producers, exalts the police State as the source of order, denies fundamental rights and liberties to individuals, and makes the executive State the unlimited master of society.

So it doesn't matter whether the collectivists are left or right wingers

Here in the US , anti-"drugs" laws, anti-prostitution , anti-pornography military conscription and others originate from the right wing. So the right wingers are as capable as the left wingers to create a POLICE STATE in order to control and regulate whatever they decide they do not want.


.

None of those things creates a police state, so your syllogism is bullshit.

HUH?
The Drug War, Mass Incarceration and Race

With less than 5 percent of the world’s population but nearly 25 percent of its incarcerated population, the United States imprisons more people than any other nation in the world – largely due to the war on drugs.

The Police State: Know It When You See It


.

The Gargantuan Police State brought to a neighborhood near you by the "anti-government" Conservatives:


The Drug War, Mass Incarceration and Race

With less than 5 percent of the world’s population but nearly 25 percent of its incarcerated population, the United States imprisons more people than any other nation in the world – largely due to the war on drugs.

The Police State: Know It When You See It



.

Yeah...don't sell drugs and you don't go to jail.....

The US is the largest purchaser of drugs in the world. We subscribe to Capitalism. Any questions?

 

[Coyote]

Fascism controls the people through authoritarianism and nationalism. Not socialism.

Whatever type of socialism works....fascism will use....

Socialism is the elimination of classes, collective ownership of all property and means of production. Fascism is not. It's an authoritarian rightwing ideology that utilizes some aspects of socialism. That doesn't make it "socialist".

Now you're playing word games. Both socialism and fascism have an elite political class. You're pretending the socialist elite political class doesn't exist when it clearly does

Defacto - yes, but I'm talking about just the ideology not how it ended up working with real human beings. Just like capitalism without regulation actually stifles competition and has no moral compass.

You're using "regulation" as a euphemism for government control, and that's not capitalism it's socialism. There is no need for "regulation" and it doesn't exist. Regulation is government controlling companies in advance.

What we do need are civil and criminal courts for when they do wrong. That's not what you are talking about. You're talking about controlling wages, controlling benefits, controlling healthcare, telling companies what they are allowed to do ... socialism ...

Government either controls through regulation or outright owns production and controls every aspect of it. You're trying to create a fuzzy area where government interferes in the private sector and calling it socialism in SOME cases and not in others and drawing arbritrary lines.

In fact, in the mid-1930s after breaking with the socialists, the Nazi regime transferred public ownership to the private sector although they maintained strict regulations.

 

[Coyote]

Sure capitalism can occur in fascism/socialism. However, it's not real capitalism, it's only what government decides to allow. That your mother lets you in the yard doesn't mean you were free to go in the yard at your own discression

Capitalism exists in degrees - from totally unfettered (which I think does not exist anywhere but in theory now) to almost completely state controlled. Can we agree on that?

No...complete state control means capitalism does not exist.

EXACTLY.

Why is that so hard to understand.

Capitalism means LIBERTY FREEDOM


.

Really? To some. To others it's sweatshops.

Capitalism needs some regulation.

Something you're completely unqualified to provide as what you want in "regulation" is socialism.

What you are arguing is corporatism, which is another form of socialism. Corporations get government to control the economy in their favor. Free people cannot be held in sweatshops. You're arguing against yourself

Corporatism isn't socialism: corporatism | ideology

Socialism: means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

[Coyote]

No...complete state control means capitalism does not exist.

EXACTLY.

Why is that so hard to understand.

Capitalism means LIBERTY FREEDOM


.

Really? To some. To others it's sweatshops.

Capitalism needs some regulation.

To them, it is work by their choice...

In fascism, you can quit a job and starve or get another job...

In communism you can never quit a job.....

What kind of choice did they have in the old mining structure where they were paid in script that could only be used in the highly inflated company stores, homes owned by the companies, and the miners kept in debt and forbidden from working elsewhere or they and their families would be evicted? Eh...ya, lots of choice in Appalachia then.

Capitalism has it's faults too. Communism as a social and economic system beyond small religious communities is a failure.

They had the choice to leave the "old mining structure" and go somewhere else they liked the rules better. Capitalism doesn't mean I have to give you want you want. That's why you like socialism, then you can run to government to use their guns to force me to give you what you want

It's nice to have a choice, but it's arrogance to assume there is always a "choice". But in some cases it's only in theory since the choice of starvation for your family and no other available jobs isn't much of a choice in the 1920's and 30's. Employers can hold a lot of threats, including forced debt, over a workers heads. Hence the need for unions.

 

[Coyote]

In terms of results - very little. I'm sure that means you will argue that proves Nazi Germany was "leftwing" and others would argue that proves Stalin was "rightwing". What they did was less reflected of an ideology than it was of a single-minded obsession of an autocratic ruler and in that, it defies all ideology.

So now your claiming that fascism and socialism have no relation to the left/right political spectrum?

You've argued yourself into a circle. You've been claiming for this entire thread that fascism is "right wing," but now you just admitted that calling it "right wing" is bullshit.

Actually if you read what I wrote (which you don't seem very good at) - I've stated the following. Hitler's Nazism is largely regarded as neither right nor left, but a mess of both and unique and I've posted sources for that already. Fascism is widely regarded as rightwing. Socialism as leftwing.

In fact both Stalinism and Nazism have become their own categories.

However,,you've been educated here that that is incorrect.....

Afraid not. Open your mind and learn something new

Socialism is socialism. There is nothing new in that. What is new is your spin, which you can't even coherently describe. Stalinism isn't socialism cus. The same reason you think fascism isn't socialism. It doesn't fit the Democrat agenda. You're saying nothing

Actually, claiming fascism is leftwing and socialist is a new spin on history by those trying and demonize the left and whitewash the right. The Republican Agenda.

 

[Divine Wind]

......you guys are out of your fucking minds..............

You guys? Who are "you guys"? Is that like "you people"? Nazis are anti-gay, favor both nationalism and traditional values, gave awards to mothers who birthed children for the Fatherland and had several conservative leaders such as Göring, Heydrich and Himmler. The fact they combined LW elements doesn't change the fact they were primarily RWed as the political graphs displayed.

Difference Between Right Wing and Left Wing
Summary:

1.Right-wing people have a higher regard for the people than the government.
2.Right-wing people are more conservative than those from the left.
3.Those coming from the left wing have more liberal ideologies than the right-wing individuals.
4.Left-wing people have a higher regard for the government than the people and perhaps undermining the autonomy of the latter in some contexts.
5.Left-wing individuals are for gay unions unlike those coming from the right wing.
6.Left-wing politicians are more supportive with the government because they believe in its power to guide the people in making better choices.

Right and Left Wing - What Does it Mean?
Left wing beliefs are usually progressive in nature, they look to the future, aim to support those who cannot support themselves, are idealist and believe in equality. People who are left wing believe in taxation to redistribute opportunity and wealth - things like a national health service, and job seeker’s allowance are fundamentally left wing ideas. They believe in equality over the freedom to fail......

.....Right wing beliefs value tradition, they are about equity, survival of the fittest, and they believe in economic freedom. They typically believe that business shouldn’t be regulated, and that we should all look after ourselves. Right wing people tend believe they shouldn’t have to pay for someone else’s education or health service. They believe in freedom to succeed over equality.

 

[Divine Wind]

Yeah...don't sell drugs and you don't go to jail.....

True. OTOH, legalize all drugs and: 1) we don't have to pay $30K per year per prisoner to lock the up, 2) we can tax it in order to pay for enforcement, clean up and cremation of dead druggies and rehab for those who want it and, best of all 3) deprives the cartels of their profits. Prohibition doesn't work. Best to learn authoritarian actions are often self-defeating.

 

[westwall]

Capitalism exists in degrees - from totally unfettered (which I think does not exist anywhere but in theory now) to almost completely state controlled. Can we agree on that?

No...complete state control means capitalism does not exist.

EXACTLY.

Why is that so hard to understand.

Capitalism means LIBERTY FREEDOM


.

Really? To some. To others it's sweatshops.

Capitalism needs some regulation.

Something you're completely unqualified to provide as what you want in "regulation" is socialism.

What you are arguing is corporatism, which is another form of socialism. Corporations get government to control the economy in their favor. Free people cannot be held in sweatshops. You're arguing against yourself

Corporatism isn't socialism: corporatism | ideology

Socialism: means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Corporatism is a form of fascism. Just sayin....