For all the Bigoted Bakers, Fanatical Florists and Pharisee Photographers

[PratchettFan]

I think you are completely missing what Marty is saying or the basis of his position.

Okay, explain then. From what I see, he and others are stomping their feet because they can't treat their fellow Americans as second class citizens because of their bigoted views. He is certainly entitled to FEEL anyway he wants, he just cannot apply that to business dealings, as a regular business is treated as any other business and has to abide by secular law as they are not religious institutions.

He is saying it is not the place of the government to force people to associate with others unless there is a compelling interest to do so, such as providing food, housing, etc. He does not consider the need for pastry to constitute a compelling interest. Who the people are involved is not the issue, only the issue of governmental force. He would equally be opposed to the government forcing a gay baker from baking a cake for the Westboro Baptist Church or a black baker from baking a cake for a white power party. He is not supporting discrimination, he is opposing governmental force.

And can you imagine the MESS that would result. Oh this business only caters to this group of people, can't go there. Oh, this business caters to this group of people but refuses to serve this group. Good grief. How stupid.

I am not supporting his position, though it does have its merits. I am only saying that if you want to argue his position, then you should argue his position - not one you made up for him.

My position is that he cannot refuse to do business with a person based on discriminatory personal views. I haven't made up anything.

This is what you said: "Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc."

He never once said he hated anyone or wanted to discriminate against anyone. You made it up.

 

[saveliberty]

Thanks for making this personal Chris. I was trying to show everyone discriminates to a degree. You are not immune. You used the term bigot against someone here. I pointed you met that same criteria. Perhaps some self reflection is in order.

 

[ChrisL]

Countries have borders, so do cities and they all discriminate. You up for released sex offenders living next to your house? Going to invite them over for dinner?

If a sex offender came into my business, how would I know it was a sex offender? Point number one. Point number two. No, I do not have the right to refuse service to such a person. I CAN object to a particular product, but I cannot refuse to serve this person as a public accommodation business.

I didn't say your business, I said your neighborhood. Very poor deflection.

You are deflecting. This thread is about business practices and anti-discrimination laws. You are entitled to hate anyone and everyone when it comes to your personal life. Nobody cares. When people start to care is when you try to treat them as less than human beings and use the excuse of your religious beliefs. Your religious beliefs are not applicable to your business unless you are a religious institution.

 

[ChrisL]

Countries have borders, so do cities and they all discriminate. You up for released sex offenders living next to your house? Going to invite them over for dinner?

If a sex offender came into my business, how would I know it was a sex offender? Point number one. Point number two. No, I do not have the right to refuse service to such a person. I CAN object to a particular product, but I cannot refuse to serve this person as a public accommodation business.

I didn't say your business, I said your neighborhood. Very poor deflection.

You are deflecting. This thread is about business practices and anti-discrimination laws and not your personal life. You are entitled to hate anyone and everyone when it comes to your personal life and be an asshole. Nobody cares. When people start to care is when you try to treat them as less than human beings and use the excuse of your religious beliefs. Your religious beliefs are not applicable to your business unless you are a religious institution.

 

[ChrisL]

Thanks for making this personal Chris. I was trying to show everyone discriminates to a degree. You are not immune. You used the term bigot against someone here. I pointed you met that same criteria. Perhaps some self reflection is in order.

I didn't make this personal. You did.

 

[saveliberty]

I recognize when someone cannot open up to a concept and will withdraw from further comment on this thread.

 

[ChrisL]

What's discriminatory about it? If it applies equally to all of my customers regardless of their race, religious beliefs, etc., then it is not discrimination. I think you need to learn what discrimination means before you start arguing and make yourself look like a dumb cat.

YOU made a rule, it excludes a group of customers dumbass.

Dumbass? Look, don't respond to my posts anymore please. Thank you in advance and have a nice life.

 

[PratchettFan]

So then you believe and would support as a matter of law, language in any Court Ruling on this topic when it makes it to SCOTUS in the next year or two, that gay graphic artists would have to be forced to print "homosexuality is an abomination and a mortal sin, forbidden by the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament" for a busy highway billboard, or they could be fined or gagged, or sued into the poorhouse by Christians?

OK, anyone else agree with Chris?

Nope, I would have a rule that I don't print hate speech, regardless of the belief of the customer. That would equally apply to everyone. No discrimination.

What if I had a rule that I didn't put two men or two women on a wedding cake and applied that equally to everyone? Would that be discrimination?

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

What the graphic artist does is create graphics. You think it is ok to refuse service to someone who is expressing a religious position you don't agree with. But it is not ok for the baker to say they won't put two male figures on a cake. One is not discrimination and the other is, despite the fact that both customers are protected classes under the same law. Explain that to me.

I didn't say that. I said I would have a rule against "hate speech" and it would apply equally to everyone. If a person wanted an "I hate Christians" sign. I would refuse. If a person wanted an "I hate gays" sign. I would also refuse. That is equal application and not discriminatory business practice.

So the difference really is you agree with one group and don't agree with the other. It's not discrimination because you're doing it and you are one of the good guys. Which, of course, is precisely the position of the other folks. Interesting what people can convince themselves of, isn't it?

 

[ChrisL]

I recognize when someone cannot open up to a concept and will withdraw from further comment on this thread.

You need to change your sig line. You are NOT a nice kitty at all.

 

[saveliberty]

Thanks for making this personal Chris. I was trying to show everyone discriminates to a degree. You are not immune. You used the term bigot against someone here. I pointed you met that same criteria. Perhaps some self reflection is in order.

I didn't make this personal. You did.

Nope, you used the term bigot first and insulted me personally first, read the thread.

 

[ChrisL]

Nope, I would have a rule that I don't print hate speech, regardless of the belief of the customer. That would equally apply to everyone. No discrimination.

What if I had a rule that I didn't put two men or two women on a wedding cake and applied that equally to everyone? Would that be discrimination?

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

What the graphic artist does is create graphics. You think it is ok to refuse service to someone who is expressing a religious position you don't agree with. But it is not ok for the baker to say they won't put two male figures on a cake. One is not discrimination and the other is, despite the fact that both customers are protected classes under the same law. Explain that to me.

I didn't say that. I said I would have a rule against "hate speech" and it would apply equally to everyone. If a person wanted an "I hate Christians" sign. I would refuse. If a person wanted an "I hate gays" sign. I would also refuse. That is equal application and not discriminatory business practice.

So the difference really is you agree with one group and don't agree with the other. It's not discrimination because you're doing it and you are one of the good guys. Which, of course, is precisely the position of the other folks. Interesting what people can convince themselves of, isn't it?

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

 

[ChrisL]

Thanks for making this personal Chris. I was trying to show everyone discriminates to a degree. You are not immune. You used the term bigot against someone here. I pointed you met that same criteria. Perhaps some self reflection is in order.

I didn't make this personal. You did.

Nope, you used the term bigot first and insulted me personally first, read the thread.

Whatever, get lost. I've got no interest in discussing anything with you further. Please stop quoting me, or I will put you on ignore. Thank you in advance.

 

[saveliberty]

I recognize when someone cannot open up to a concept and will withdraw from further comment on this thread.

You need to change your sig line. You are NOT a nice kitty at all.

It reads, "Nice kitty <<< opinions vary >>>not nice kitty."

You were all about the nice kitty, until I disagreed with you.

 

[ChrisL]

I can refuse to make a specific product that my business wouldn't normally offer. That is not discriminatory business practice. Discrimination is when you refuse to do business with a person because of who they are.

The scenario is a graphic artist and the customer wants graphics done, which is what that person provides. No different than the baker with a cake. So why is one discrimination and the other is not?

Here is how it is different. Refusing to supply a product for anyone versus refusing to do business with a certain sector. Simple really.

 

[ChrisL]

I recognize when someone cannot open up to a concept and will withdraw from further comment on this thread.

You need to change your sig line. You are NOT a nice kitty at all.

It reads, "Nice kitty <<< opinions vary >>>not nice kitty."

You were all about the nice kitty, until I disagreed with you.

I don't care. Stop addressing my posts. I'm not interested in discussing this with you. Good bye.

 

[ChrisL]

Okay, explain then. From what I see, he and others are stomping their feet because they can't treat their fellow Americans as second class citizens because of their bigoted views. He is certainly entitled to FEEL anyway he wants, he just cannot apply that to business dealings, as a regular business is treated as any other business and has to abide by secular law as they are not religious institutions.

He is saying it is not the place of the government to force people to associate with others unless there is a compelling interest to do so, such as providing food, housing, etc. He does not consider the need for pastry to constitute a compelling interest. Who the people are involved is not the issue, only the issue of governmental force. He would equally be opposed to the government forcing a gay baker from baking a cake for the Westboro Baptist Church or a black baker from baking a cake for a white power party. He is not supporting discrimination, he is opposing governmental force.

And can you imagine the MESS that would result. Oh this business only caters to this group of people, can't go there. Oh, this business caters to this group of people but refuses to serve this group. Good grief. How stupid.

I am not supporting his position, though it does have its merits. I am only saying that if you want to argue his position, then you should argue his position - not one you made up for him.

My position is that he cannot refuse to do business with a person based on discriminatory personal views. I haven't made up anything.

This is what you said: "Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc."

He never once said he hated anyone or wanted to discriminate against anyone. You made it up.

Okay, I'll rephrase. He is entitled to discriminate against anyone he wants in his personal life but not in his business as it is against the antidiscrimination laws in this state. Better?

 

[saveliberty]

I recognize when someone cannot open up to a concept and will withdraw from further comment on this thread.

You need to change your sig line. You are NOT a nice kitty at all.

It reads, "Nice kitty <<< opinions vary >>>not nice kitty."

You were all about the nice kitty, until I disagreed with you.

I don't care. Stop addressing my posts. I'm not interested in discussing this with you. Good bye.

There goes free speech again. lol

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

Revenge is revenge, and you are out for it.

and as for you last statement, not your call to make, and not government's unless there is harm and a compelling interest.

Well, Bigoted bakers has a $135,000 fine that says otherwise.

Krystalnacht said otherwise too.

Are you saying that fining a business for breaking a state's PA laws is just like Krystalnacht?

I'm saying the Democrats' attitude toward Christians here is the same.

 

[ChrisL]

Let's try this again in more simple terms. If I, as a business owner, refuse to make a specific product for a customer, that is not discriminating. There could be a multitude of reasons why I cannot or should not make such a product. The customer still has access to my business and can still use my business for the products I supply.

If I, as a business owner, refuse to do business or allow access to my products to a certain segment of the population (gay people) that is discriminating against a certain segment of the population and would fall under anti-discrimination and civil rights laws.

You cannot deny service to a person because of who they are, black, gay, religious, not religious, etc. You can still refuse to make certain products for customers (all customers), and that is not considered discrimination by the state.

 

[ChrisL]

Another example. I can refuse to make "specialty" cakes for customers. I can have a book with the cakes I will make. I can refuse to make a specialty cake for anyone, as this does not discriminate against any group of people in particular. However, refusing to even bake a cake, which is the service I provide, to a person because he or she is gay, is discrimination.