For all the Bigoted Bakers, Fanatical Florists and Pharisee Photographers

[PratchettFan]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

No because you are not refusing to do business with that person based on who they are, but on the product being requested. If you don't supply those types of products to any customers, then it is not discrimination.

What the graphic artist does is create graphics. You think it is ok to refuse service to someone who is expressing a religious position you don't agree with. But it is not ok for the baker to say they won't put two male figures on a cake. One is not discrimination and the other is, despite the fact that both customers are protected classes under the same law. Explain that to me.

I didn't say that. I said I would have a rule against "hate speech" and it would apply equally to everyone. If a person wanted an "I hate Christians" sign. I would refuse. If a person wanted an "I hate gays" sign. I would also refuse. That is equal application and not discriminatory business practice.

So the difference really is you agree with one group and don't agree with the other. It's not discrimination because you're doing it and you are one of the good guys. Which, of course, is precisely the position of the other folks. Interesting what people can convince themselves of, isn't it?

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

And they have a rule they apply to everyone. Your rule (which you apply in an arbitrary manner, given the example given was not hate speech - just a religious position you disagree with) is the basis to discriminate against a protected class. It is discrimination, and would probably be seen as a violation of the PA law in Oregon.

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Of course it is arbitrary. You are deciding in a completely arbitrary manner as to what is or is not hate speech. Your product is to produce graphics, just as a baker produces cakes. You are denying your product to someone based entirely upon their religious beliefs. If they wanted it to say "Kittens are Nice" you would not deny them service, so it is entirely about the religious expression. That is discrimination. Why is it ok for you to discriminate but not the baker?

 

[Silhouette]

In fact, I can open up a business that specializes in making signs for churches. That is not discriminatory either. That just happens to be the products I offer at my business.

OK, I'll ask again:

If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?

 

[ChrisL]

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Stop squirming around the question asshole (I'm growing weary of your "gentle diversions"). Answer it. If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?

I have answered it numerous times now. If you can't understand, that's your problem. Not mine.

 

[ChrisL]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

No because you are not refusing to do business with that person based on who they are, but on the product being requested. If you don't supply those types of products to any customers, then it is not discrimination.

I didn't say that. I said I would have a rule against "hate speech" and it would apply equally to everyone. If a person wanted an "I hate Christians" sign. I would refuse. If a person wanted an "I hate gays" sign. I would also refuse. That is equal application and not discriminatory business practice.

So the difference really is you agree with one group and don't agree with the other. It's not discrimination because you're doing it and you are one of the good guys. Which, of course, is precisely the position of the other folks. Interesting what people can convince themselves of, isn't it?

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

And they have a rule they apply to everyone. Your rule (which you apply in an arbitrary manner, given the example given was not hate speech - just a religious position you disagree with) is the basis to discriminate against a protected class. It is discrimination, and would probably be seen as a violation of the PA law in Oregon.

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Of course it is arbitrary. You are deciding in a completely arbitrary manner as to what is or is not hate speech. Your product is to produce graphics, just as a baker produces cakes. You are denying your product to someone based entirely upon their religious beliefs. If they wanted it to say "Kittens are Nice" you would not deny them service, so it is entirely about the religious expression. That is discrimination. Why is it ok for you to discriminate but not the baker?

You can do that in your business. That is not discrimination. Discrimination is refusing to do business with a person BECAUSE they are gay, black, disabled, a woman, a man, etc.

 

[ChrisL]

In fact, I can open up a business that specializes in making signs for churches. That is not discriminatory either. That just happens to be the products I offer at my business.

OK, I'll ask again:

If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?

That is up to the particular business owner what products he or she will supply. Discrimination is when you refuse to do business with a person because they are gay, black, disabled, a man, a woman, etc. Get it? You can control what products your business will provide. You cannot refuse to do business with a person because that person is gay or black, or whatever it is you don't like.

You are also entitled to apply those beliefs to your personal life. You just can't use tactics of discrimination when you open a business in this particular state. That is illegal.

 

[Silhouette]

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Stop squirming around the question asshole (I'm growing weary of your "gentle diversions"). Answer it. If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?

I have answered it numerous times now. If you can't understand, that's your problem. Not mine.

You HAVE NOT ANSWERED the question. You squirmed around answering it directly. Answer it directly. CAN A CHRISTIAN CUSTOMER SUE A GAY GRAPHIC ARTIST IF THAT ARTIST MAKES BILLBOARDS FOR A LIVING AND THE CHRISTIAN WANTS A SIGN THAT SAYS "HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN UNTO GOD" PRINTED FOR A BUSY HIGHWAY, AND THE GAY ARTIST REFUSES ON PRINCIPLE?

That is up to the particular business owner what products he or she will supply. Discrimination is when you refuse to do business with a person because they are gay, black, disabled, a man, a woman, etc. Get it?
.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO DO BUSINESS WITH INDIVIDUAL GAYS. THEY ARE REFUSING TO PROMOTE AN ABHORRENT IDEA TO THEIR FAITH WHICH IS "GAY MARRIAGE". GET THAT THROUGH YOUR SLIPPERY HEAD.

 

[ChrisL]

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Stop squirming around the question asshole (I'm growing weary of your "gentle diversions"). Answer it. If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?

I have answered it numerous times now. If you can't understand, that's your problem. Not mine.

You HAVE NOT ANSWERED the question. You squirmed around answering it directly. Answer it directly. CAN A CHRISTIAN CUSTOMER SUE A GAY GRAPHIC ARTIST IF THAT ARTIST MAKES BILLBOARDS FOR A LIVING AND THE CHRISTIAN WANTS A SIGN THAT SAYS "HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN UNTO GOD" PRINTED FOR A BUSY HIGHWAY, AND THE GAY ARTIST REFUSES ON PRINCIPLE?

I've answered it and I've simplified it for you. If you don't understand, that's your problem.

 

[Skylar]

In fact, I can open up a business that specializes in making signs for churches. That is not discriminatory either. That just happens to be the products I offer at my business.

OK, I'll ask again:

If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?

Which state are we talking about?

 

[ChrisL]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

No because you are not refusing to do business with that person based on who they are, but on the product being requested. If you don't supply those types of products to any customers, then it is not discrimination.

I didn't say that. I said I would have a rule against "hate speech" and it would apply equally to everyone. If a person wanted an "I hate Christians" sign. I would refuse. If a person wanted an "I hate gays" sign. I would also refuse. That is equal application and not discriminatory business practice.

So the difference really is you agree with one group and don't agree with the other. It's not discrimination because you're doing it and you are one of the good guys. Which, of course, is precisely the position of the other folks. Interesting what people can convince themselves of, isn't it?

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

And they have a rule they apply to everyone. Your rule (which you apply in an arbitrary manner, given the example given was not hate speech - just a religious position you disagree with) is the basis to discriminate against a protected class. It is discrimination, and would probably be seen as a violation of the PA law in Oregon.

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Of course it is arbitrary. You are deciding in a completely arbitrary manner as to what is or is not hate speech. Your product is to produce graphics, just as a baker produces cakes. You are denying your product to someone based entirely upon their religious beliefs. If they wanted it to say "Kittens are Nice" you would not deny them service, so it is entirely about the religious expression. That is discrimination. Why is it ok for you to discriminate but not the baker?

Cite the Oregon law where it is illegal or discriminatory business practice to control what services you provide? Oh right, because THAT is not discrimination.

 

[PratchettFan]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

You're talking about an explicit po9litical message as opposed to a wedding cake. What political message is sent by a wedding cake? And is that message as provocative as the good old fashioned Gay bashing attempted by the alleged Christian?

That was not a political message, it was a religious one. The PA law in Oregon specifically prohibits discrimination based upon religion.

Not supplying a product is not discrimination in any sense of the word. As a business owner, you do still have some control over your business. What you cannot do is discriminate in the sense that you will refuse service to a person because he or she is gay or black or disabled or religious or an atheist, etc. You can still choose what products you will supply though.

No. That is not what you have said. If the baker refuses to put two men on the cake that is discrimination. You said it. So if you refuse to put the words on the graphic, then that is discrimination. The discrimination for the baker is about sexual orientation, your discrimination is about religion. Both are protected classes under the same law. If one is discrimination, then both are.

 

[Silhouette]

Another set of diversions! You don't want to answer do you?

Here's where we were before Skylar jumped in and helped you out by trying to introduce a strawman about "hey, which state were we talking about again"?

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Stop squirming around the question asshole (I'm growing weary of your "gentle diversions"). Answer it. If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?

I have answered it numerous times now. If you can't understand, that's your problem. Not mine.

You HAVE NOT ANSWERED the question. You squirmed around answering it directly. Answer it directly. CAN A CHRISTIAN CUSTOMER SUE A GAY GRAPHIC ARTIST IF THAT ARTIST MAKES BILLBOARDS FOR A LIVING AND THE CHRISTIAN WANTS A SIGN THAT SAYS "HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN UNTO GOD" PRINTED FOR A BUSY HIGHWAY, AND THE GAY ARTIST REFUSES ON PRINCIPLE?

That is up to the particular business owner what products he or she will supply. Discrimination is when you refuse to do business with a person because they are gay, black, disabled, a man, a woman, etc. Get it?
.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO DO BUSINESS WITH INDIVIDUAL GAYS. THEY ARE REFUSING TO PROMOTE AN ABHORRENT IDEA TO THEIR FAITH WHICH IS "GAY MARRIAGE". GET THAT THROUGH YOUR SLIPPERY HEAD.

..... If the baker refuses to put two men on the cake that is discrimination. You said it. So if you refuse to put the words on the graphic, then that is discrimination. The discrimination for the baker is about sexual orientation, your discrimination is about religion. Both are protected classes under the same law. If one is discrimination, then both are. [/QUOTE]

EXACTLY.

 

[ChrisL]

So that some of you can understand what discrimination actually is . . .

The Civil Rights Division of the Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) enforces Oregon´s civil rights laws. These laws ban discrimination against individuals because of characteristics that make them part of a protected class. Anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served such as a restaurant or a hotel, when buying or renting housing or when applying for or attending a career school can file a complaint with the BOLI´s Civil Rights Division.

 

[PratchettFan]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

No because you are not refusing to do business with that person based on who they are, but on the product being requested. If you don't supply those types of products to any customers, then it is not discrimination.

So the difference really is you agree with one group and don't agree with the other. It's not discrimination because you're doing it and you are one of the good guys. Which, of course, is precisely the position of the other folks. Interesting what people can convince themselves of, isn't it?

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

And they have a rule they apply to everyone. Your rule (which you apply in an arbitrary manner, given the example given was not hate speech - just a religious position you disagree with) is the basis to discriminate against a protected class. It is discrimination, and would probably be seen as a violation of the PA law in Oregon.

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Of course it is arbitrary. You are deciding in a completely arbitrary manner as to what is or is not hate speech. Your product is to produce graphics, just as a baker produces cakes. You are denying your product to someone based entirely upon their religious beliefs. If they wanted it to say "Kittens are Nice" you would not deny them service, so it is entirely about the religious expression. That is discrimination. Why is it ok for you to discriminate but not the baker?

Cite the Oregon law where it is illegal or discriminatory business practice to control what services you provide? Oh right, because THAT is not discrimination.

659A.403¹
Discrimination in place of public accommodation prohibited
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, all persons within the jurisdiction of this state are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older.
(2) Subsection (1) of this section does not prohibit:
(a) The enforcement of laws governing the consumption of alcoholic beverages by minors and the frequenting by minors of places of public accommodation where alcoholic beverages are served; or
(b) The offering of special rates or services to persons 50 years of age or older.
(3) It is an unlawful practice for any person to deny full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation in violation of this section. [Formerly 30.670; 2003 c.521 §1; 2005 c.131 §1; 2007 c.100 §5]

 

[ChrisL]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

You're talking about an explicit po9litical message as opposed to a wedding cake. What political message is sent by a wedding cake? And is that message as provocative as the good old fashioned Gay bashing attempted by the alleged Christian?

That was not a political message, it was a religious one. The PA law in Oregon specifically prohibits discrimination based upon religion.

Not supplying a product is not discrimination in any sense of the word. As a business owner, you do still have some control over your business. What you cannot do is discriminate in the sense that you will refuse service to a person because he or she is gay or black or disabled or religious or an atheist, etc. You can still choose what products you will supply though.

No. That is not what you have said. If the baker refuses to put two men on the cake that is discrimination. You said it. So if you refuse to put the words on the graphic, then that is discrimination. The discrimination for the baker is about sexual orientation, your discrimination is about religion. Both are protected classes under the same law. If one is discrimination, then both are.

I did not say that. Please quote the post where I ever said that. I said that if you refuse to serve a person because he or she is gay, black, a male, a female, a disabled person, that is discrimination.

Limiting which products you will supply in your business is not discrimination.

 

[PratchettFan]

So that some of you can understand what discrimination actually is . . .

The Civil Rights Division of the Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) enforces Oregon´s civil rights laws. These laws ban discrimination against individuals because of characteristics that make them part of a protected class. Anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served such as a restaurant or a hotel, when buying or renting housing or when applying for or attending a career school can file a complaint with the BOLI´s Civil Rights Division.

You are citing the employment discrimination laws. They do not apply to this.

 

[ChrisL]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

No because you are not refusing to do business with that person based on who they are, but on the product being requested. If you don't supply those types of products to any customers, then it is not discrimination.

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

And they have a rule they apply to everyone. Your rule (which you apply in an arbitrary manner, given the example given was not hate speech - just a religious position you disagree with) is the basis to discriminate against a protected class. It is discrimination, and would probably be seen as a violation of the PA law in Oregon.

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Of course it is arbitrary. You are deciding in a completely arbitrary manner as to what is or is not hate speech. Your product is to produce graphics, just as a baker produces cakes. You are denying your product to someone based entirely upon their religious beliefs. If they wanted it to say "Kittens are Nice" you would not deny them service, so it is entirely about the religious expression. That is discrimination. Why is it ok for you to discriminate but not the baker?

Cite the Oregon law where it is illegal or discriminatory business practice to control what services you provide? Oh right, because THAT is not discrimination.

659A.403¹
Discrimination in place of public accommodation prohibited
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, all persons within the jurisdiction of this state are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older.
(2) Subsection (1) of this section does not prohibit:
(a) The enforcement of laws governing the consumption of alcoholic beverages by minors and the frequenting by minors of places of public accommodation where alcoholic beverages are served; or
(b) The offering of special rates or services to persons 50 years of age or older.
(3) It is an unlawful practice for any person to deny full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation in violation of this section. [Formerly 30.670; 2003 c.521 §1; 2005 c.131 §1; 2007 c.100 §5]

Exactly, and only providing a limited service to everyone is not discrimination. I can refuse to put toppers on cakes. That is not discriminatory business practice.

 

[ChrisL]

So that some of you can understand what discrimination actually is . . .

The Civil Rights Division of the Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) enforces Oregon´s civil rights laws. These laws ban discrimination against individuals because of characteristics that make them part of a protected class. Anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served such as a restaurant or a hotel, when buying or renting housing or when applying for or attending a career school can file a complaint with the BOLI´s Civil Rights Division.

You are citing the employment discrimination laws. They do not apply to this.

Did you read it? Here . . . "anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served, such as a restaurant or hotel . . . "

 

[ChrisL]

So that some of you can understand what discrimination actually is . . .

The Civil Rights Division of the Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) enforces Oregon´s civil rights laws. These laws ban discrimination against individuals because of characteristics that make them part of a protected class. Anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served such as a restaurant or a hotel, when buying or renting housing or when applying for or attending a career school can file a complaint with the BOLI´s Civil Rights Division.

You are citing the employment discrimination laws. They do not apply to this.

Those are the civil rights laws, not employment discrimination laws.

 

[ChrisL]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

No because you are not refusing to do business with that person based on who they are, but on the product being requested. If you don't supply those types of products to any customers, then it is not discrimination.

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

And they have a rule they apply to everyone. Your rule (which you apply in an arbitrary manner, given the example given was not hate speech - just a religious position you disagree with) is the basis to discriminate against a protected class. It is discrimination, and would probably be seen as a violation of the PA law in Oregon.

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Of course it is arbitrary. You are deciding in a completely arbitrary manner as to what is or is not hate speech. Your product is to produce graphics, just as a baker produces cakes. You are denying your product to someone based entirely upon their religious beliefs. If they wanted it to say "Kittens are Nice" you would not deny them service, so it is entirely about the religious expression. That is discrimination. Why is it ok for you to discriminate but not the baker?

Cite the Oregon law where it is illegal or discriminatory business practice to control what services you provide? Oh right, because THAT is not discrimination.

659A.403¹
Discrimination in place of public accommodation prohibited
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, all persons within the jurisdiction of this state are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older.
(2) Subsection (1) of this section does not prohibit:
(a) The enforcement of laws governing the consumption of alcoholic beverages by minors and the frequenting by minors of places of public accommodation where alcoholic beverages are served; or
(b) The offering of special rates or services to persons 50 years of age or older.
(3) It is an unlawful practice for any person to deny full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation in violation of this section. [Formerly 30.670; 2003 c.521 §1; 2005 c.131 §1; 2007 c.100 §5]

Exactly. If I don't provide writings on the cakes or toppers, that is not discriminating against a protected class. That is what my business offers all customers.

 

[Silhouette]

But you can't omit writing if you're a graphic gay artist..