For all the Bigoted Bakers, Fanatical Florists and Pharisee Photographers

[Silhouette]

But you can't omit writing if you're a graphic gay artist..

Yes, I can. I have every right to limit which services I will provide. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a certain sector of the public.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO SERVE GAYS A BIRTHDAY CAKE, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVING (an action, not a noun) BIRTHDAYS AREN'T AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. A "GAY WEDDING" IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.
I know you know the difference.

Then don't offer wedding cakes to the public. Problem solved.

Then in the reverse, if a gay graphic artist doesn't want to print a billboard for a Christian that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" then the gay graphic artist simply has to close his doors to his business.

Got that homosexual afficianados? If you have a passion to do something, it could be anything, and if a Christian wants you to do some action in that business that violates your feelings and principles about "homosexuality is normal healthy and fine/acceptable" then you should not even bother following that dream because you will have no choice in the matter, you must do that action you find loathesome, even when Christians could go down the street to a normal shop and that person would be fine with their request.

OK Just making sure we are on the same page.

Equality under the law. It's a double-edged sword when principles face off with principles.

 

[ChrisL]

No because you are not refusing to do business with that person based on who they are, but on the product being requested. If you don't supply those types of products to any customers, then it is not discrimination.
It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Of course it is arbitrary. You are deciding in a completely arbitrary manner as to what is or is not hate speech. Your product is to produce graphics, just as a baker produces cakes. You are denying your product to someone based entirely upon their religious beliefs. If they wanted it to say "Kittens are Nice" you would not deny them service, so it is entirely about the religious expression. That is discrimination. Why is it ok for you to discriminate but not the baker?

Cite the Oregon law where it is illegal or discriminatory business practice to control what services you provide? Oh right, because THAT is not discrimination.

659A.403¹
Discrimination in place of public accommodation prohibited
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, all persons within the jurisdiction of this state are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older.
(2) Subsection (1) of this section does not prohibit:
(a) The enforcement of laws governing the consumption of alcoholic beverages by minors and the frequenting by minors of places of public accommodation where alcoholic beverages are served; or
(b) The offering of special rates or services to persons 50 years of age or older.
(3) It is an unlawful practice for any person to deny full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation in violation of this section. [Formerly 30.670; 2003 c.521 §1; 2005 c.131 §1; 2007 c.100 §5]

Exactly, and only providing a limited service to everyone is not discrimination. I can refuse to put toppers on cakes. That is not discriminatory business practice.

That is not what it says. "entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction" Providing limited service is discrimination if it falls within a protected class. Religion is a protected class. Either the law is applied equally to everyone, or it is a violation of the 14th amendment.

I'm not arguing that. Limiting what your business provides the public is not discrimination. You can say that you don't offer cakes that say have any quotes and that is not discriminating against a particular group.

 

[martybegan]

Well, they did decide. The state court decided on a state law. What is the problem?

Law is wrong, court is wrong.

So.... the court gets to decide unless you disagree with the decision?

The court gets to decide regardless, but their decision has no impact on what I think is right or wrong.

Ok. I can certainly respect that.

Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

I don't hate anyone you ignorant ass.

 

[Skylar]

Local laws don't trump the 1st Amendment.

The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st amendment. And denied cert to cases involving religious objections to gay marriage and PA laws.

So the 1st isn't relevant to the issue....as it isn't violated.

 

[ChrisL]

But you can't omit writing if you're a graphic gay artist..

Yes, I can. I have every right to limit which services I will provide. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a certain sector of the public.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO SERVE GAYS A BIRTHDAY CAKE, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVING (an action, not a noun) BIRTHDAYS AREN'T AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. A "GAY WEDDING" IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.
I know you know the difference.

Then don't offer wedding cakes to the public. Problem solved.

Then in the reverse, if a gay graphic artist doesn't want to print a billboard for a Christian that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" then the gay graphic artist simply has to close his doors to his business.

Got that homosexual afficianados? If you have a passion to do something, it could be anything, and if a Christian wants you to do some action in that business that violates your feelings and principles about "homosexuality is normal healthy and fine/acceptable" then you should not even bother following that dream because you will have no choice in the matter, you must do that action you find loathesome, even when Christians could go down the street to a normal shop and that person would be fine with their request.

OK Just making sure we are on the same page.

Nope, and here is where your understanding of the law is poor. You can limit what your business will provide. You cannot limit your customer base based upon prejudice.

 

[martybegan]

Employment law is something else, and the line there has to be drawn only around if the sexuality of the person is in conflict with the job to be done.

Hospitals deal with time and life sensitive issues, government has a compelling reason to force them to act equally.

Hotels should be required to provide rooms equally, however they should be able to choose events they wish to host.

Banquet halls should be allowed to choose the events they wish to hold

It's actually easy to figure out which ones result in actual harm, and which ones only result in people feeling sad that people don't agree with their lifestyle.

All business which are not religious institutions have to follow the same laws. You are not being singled out.

AGAIN, the rights of free exercise are not limited to religious institutions, but to the people. You have to come up with a better reason to restrict them than "someone's feelings are hurt"

Apparently the state of Oregon disagrees with you.

apparently the state of Oregon is full of nosey prissy twats.

I think they are doing a good job at making sure everyone is treated as equals when it comes to business practice.

because you "heart" screwing over people who disagree with you, actually you are a gutless coward that "hearts" letting government screw over people who disagree with you.

 

[martybegan]

But you can't omit writing if you're a graphic gay artist..

Yes, I can. I have every right to limit which services I will provide. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a certain sector of the public.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO SERVE GAYS A BIRTHDAY CAKE, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVING (an action, not a noun) BIRTHDAYS AREN'T AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. A "GAY WEDDING" IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.
I know you know the difference.

Then don't offer wedding cakes to the public. Problem solved.

Then in the reverse, if a gay graphic artist doesn't want to print a billboard for a Christian that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" then the gay graphic artist simply has to close his doors to his business.

Got that homosexual afficianados? If you have a passion to do something, it could be anything, and if a Christian wants you to do some action in that business that violates your feelings and principles about "homosexuality is normal healthy and fine/acceptable" then you should not even bother following that dream because you will have no choice in the matter, you must do that action you find loathesome, even when Christians could go down the street to a normal shop and that person would be fine with their request.

OK Just making sure we are on the same page.

Nope, and here is where your understanding of the law is poor. You can limit what your business will provide. You cannot limit your customer base based upon prejudice.

More of the same "protections only work for people i agree with"

 

[martybegan]

Local laws don't trump the 1st Amendment.

The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st amendment. And denied cert to cases involving religious objections to gay marriage and PA laws.

So the 1st isn't relevant to the issue....as it isn't violated.

because teh court be our massa, right, whatever the court says is de bossman right?

 

[ChrisL]

Law is wrong, court is wrong.

So.... the court gets to decide unless you disagree with the decision?

The court gets to decide regardless, but their decision has no impact on what I think is right or wrong.

Ok. I can certainly respect that.

Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

I don't hate anyone you ignorant ass.

Could have fooled me.

 

[martybegan]

If I opened a printing business, I would expect to have all kinds of customers. If I had a rule, it would apply to all people equally. That is not discriminating.

So then you believe and would support as a matter of law, language in any Court Ruling on this topic when it makes it to SCOTUS in the next year or two, that gay graphic artists would have to be forced to print "homosexuality is an abomination and a mortal sin, forbidden by the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament" for a busy highway billboard, or they could be fined or gagged, or sued into the poorhouse by Christians?

OK, anyone else agree with Chris?

Nope, I would have a rule that I don't print hate speech, regardless of the belief of the customer. That would equally apply to everyone. No discrimination.

What if I had a rule that I didn't put two men or two women on a wedding cake and applied that equally to everyone? Would that be discrimination?

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

OR THEY CAN JUST GO TO ANOTHER BAKER

 

[ChrisL]

But you can't omit writing if you're a graphic gay artist..

Yes, I can. I have every right to limit which services I will provide. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a certain sector of the public.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO SERVE GAYS A BIRTHDAY CAKE, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVING (an action, not a noun) BIRTHDAYS AREN'T AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. A "GAY WEDDING" IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.
I know you know the difference.

Then don't offer wedding cakes to the public. Problem solved.

Then in the reverse, if a gay graphic artist doesn't want to print a billboard for a Christian that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" then the gay graphic artist simply has to close his doors to his business.

Got that homosexual afficianados? If you have a passion to do something, it could be anything, and if a Christian wants you to do some action in that business that violates your feelings and principles about "homosexuality is normal healthy and fine/acceptable" then you should not even bother following that dream because you will have no choice in the matter, you must do that action you find loathesome, even when Christians could go down the street to a normal shop and that person would be fine with their request.

OK Just making sure we are on the same page.

Nope, and here is where your understanding of the law is poor. You can limit what your business will provide. You cannot limit your customer base based upon prejudice.

More of the same "protections only work for people i agree with"

Where do you get that from what I stated. Any business can limit which products they supply. What they cannot do is discriminate against their customers. Simple. Easy to understand.

 

[guno]

I am just wondering how far you are willing to take your strict adherence to the Bible in doing your business.

Okay. So you don't want to provide wedding services to gay folks because Leviticus 18:22 says so.

Well, why stop there?

The Bible also says that adultery and sex before marriage are wrong. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 is very clear a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night shall be stoned. Admittedly, it might be a bit harsh to determine who is a virgin, but you could at least eliminate the 50% of women who live with their boyfriends before marriage.

Okay, next up, we need to talk about what you are wearing, Girlfriend. Deuteronomy 22:5 says that a woman shall not wear clothing meant for a man. That means all you ladies who wear slacks and jeans and pantsuits! Clearly, a truly biblical business can't work for such sinners!

and if that's too "Old Testament" for you, 1 Timothy 2:9 and 1 Peter 3:3 both state women should wear neither braids nor jewelry. so if they plan to wear any of that at their wedding, clearly it would offend your magic fairy in the sky to no end.

Hey, and Heaven forbid that they be one of those "liberated" women who write their own vows at a wedding.

Ephesians 5:22-24 says that they should totally submit to their husbands, and 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 says they should keep their mouths shut in church.

So really, now that you've eliminated about 99% of your potential customers, you can no doubt say that your objections to serving gays was really about the Bible... because you are also following all the other rules the bible sets down.

Whats really funny is that the Hebrew bible were for Jews only it didn't pertain to non Jews

 

[Skylar]

Local laws don't trump the 1st Amendment.

The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st amendment. And denied cert to cases involving religious objections to gay marriage and PA laws.

So the 1st isn't relevant to the issue....as it isn't violated.

because teh court be our massa, right, whatever the court says is de bossman right?

The courts certainly are the arbiters of the constitution and when its violated. And they've found no such violation.

Your disagreement is legally irrelevant.

 

[ChrisL]

If I opened a printing business, I would expect to have all kinds of customers. If I had a rule, it would apply to all people equally. That is not discriminating.

So then you believe and would support as a matter of law, language in any Court Ruling on this topic when it makes it to SCOTUS in the next year or two, that gay graphic artists would have to be forced to print "homosexuality is an abomination and a mortal sin, forbidden by the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament" for a busy highway billboard, or they could be fined or gagged, or sued into the poorhouse by Christians?

OK, anyone else agree with Chris?

Nope, I would have a rule that I don't print hate speech, regardless of the belief of the customer. That would equally apply to everyone. No discrimination.

What if I had a rule that I didn't put two men or two women on a wedding cake and applied that equally to everyone? Would that be discrimination?

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

OR THEY CAN JUST GO TO ANOTHER BAKER

That's their choice. They can go to another baker or they can sue for damages due to discrimination.

 

[Silhouette]

The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st amendment. And denied cert to cases involving religious objections to gay marriage and PA laws.

Well it's always a good idea to WAIT until a case is brought before the Court before you make some asinine statement like "The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st Amendment. That case will be Heard. Then AFTER it's heard you can make a definitive statement about what the Court believes or doesn't believe...

 

[martybegan]

Anything involving government should stay. Anything involving actual public accommodations should stay, but the law has to be tempered with respects to the rights of the people to associate with who they want to, and only when government has a clear compelling case to force them to do what it wants should government act.

The government has a compelling interest in protecting the citizenry from discrimination.

Not if by doing so it has to force someone to go against their morals, when their action causes not actual harm.

More made up constitutional theory by the constitutional illiterate.

Thank you for admitting your are losing the argument. I have been consistent throughout and you have not yet once found any holes in my position, short of "I don't like it"

Actually, I have provided you with Supreme Court cases that prove you wrong. You are simply too fucking stupid to understand that.

Fuck. The. Supreme. Court.

 

[martybegan]

So.... the court gets to decide unless you disagree with the decision?

The court gets to decide regardless, but their decision has no impact on what I think is right or wrong.

Ok. I can certainly respect that.

Exactly. He is still entitled to hate other people. He just cannot discriminate between customers when it comes to providing a service that he agreed to provide when opening the business, regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, etc.

I don't hate anyone you ignorant ass.

Could have fooled me.

hence the "ignorant" part.

 

[martybegan]

So then you believe and would support as a matter of law, language in any Court Ruling on this topic when it makes it to SCOTUS in the next year or two, that gay graphic artists would have to be forced to print "homosexuality is an abomination and a mortal sin, forbidden by the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament" for a busy highway billboard, or they could be fined or gagged, or sued into the poorhouse by Christians?

OK, anyone else agree with Chris?

Nope, I would have a rule that I don't print hate speech, regardless of the belief of the customer. That would equally apply to everyone. No discrimination.

What if I had a rule that I didn't put two men or two women on a wedding cake and applied that equally to everyone? Would that be discrimination?

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

OR THEY CAN JUST GO TO ANOTHER BAKER

That's their choice. They can go to another baker or they can sue for damages due to discrimination.

So they can be whiny little twats about it, great, democracy and freedom in action, going to run to government to fight the fight you are too chickenshit to do yourself.

 

[Skylar]

I am just wondering how far you are willing to take your strict adherence to the Bible in doing your business.

Okay. So you don't want to provide wedding services to gay folks because Leviticus 18:22 says so.

Well, why stop there?

The Bible also says that adultery and sex before marriage are wrong. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 is very clear a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night shall be stoned. Admittedly, it might be a bit harsh to determine who is a virgin, but you could at least eliminate the 50% of women who live with their boyfriends before marriage.

Okay, next up, we need to talk about what you are wearing, Girlfriend. Deuteronomy 22:5 says that a woman shall not wear clothing meant for a man. That means all you ladies who wear slacks and jeans and pantsuits! Clearly, a truly biblical business can't work for such sinners!

and if that's too "Old Testament" for you, 1 Timothy 2:9 and 1 Peter 3:3 both state women should wear neither braids nor jewelry. so if they plan to wear any of that at their wedding, clearly it would offend your magic fairy in the sky to no end.

Hey, and Heaven forbid that they be one of those "liberated" women who write their own vows at a wedding.

Ephesians 5:22-24 says that they should totally submit to their husbands, and 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 says they should keep their mouths shut in church.

So really, now that you've eliminated about 99% of your potential customers, you can no doubt say that your objections to serving gays was really about the Bible... because you are also following all the other rules the bible sets down.

Whats really funny is that the Hebrew bible were for Jews only it didn't pertain to non Jews

The whole adoption of the Torah by Christians was just odd. It would be the equivilant of Buddhists adopting the more violent parts of the Bhagavad Gita and insisting that Buddha was merely another reincarnation of Vishnu

 

[Silhouette]

And skylar shows up for a strawman... STRAWMAN...STAT!