For all the Bigoted Bakers, Fanatical Florists and Pharisee Photographers

[Silhouette]

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

OR THEY CAN JUST GO TO ANOTHER BAKER

That's their choice. They can go to another baker or they can sue for damages due to discrimination.

So then a Christian could go to a Christian billboard artist or sue a gay artist for refusing to print "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" on principle for a highway billboard. That's the Christian's choice. OK, got it.

 

[martybegan]

But you can't omit writing if you're a graphic gay artist..

Yes, I can. I have every right to limit which services I will provide. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a certain sector of the public.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO SERVE GAYS A BIRTHDAY CAKE, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVING (an action, not a noun) BIRTHDAYS AREN'T AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. A "GAY WEDDING" IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.
I know you know the difference.

Then don't offer wedding cakes to the public. Problem solved.

Then in the reverse, if a gay graphic artist doesn't want to print a billboard for a Christian that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" then the gay graphic artist simply has to close his doors to his business.

Got that homosexual afficianados? If you have a passion to do something, it could be anything, and if a Christian wants you to do some action in that business that violates your feelings and principles about "homosexuality is normal healthy and fine/acceptable" then you should not even bother following that dream because you will have no choice in the matter, you must do that action you find loathesome, even when Christians could go down the street to a normal shop and that person would be fine with their request.

OK Just making sure we are on the same page.

Nope, and here is where your understanding of the law is poor. You can limit what your business will provide. You cannot limit your customer base based upon prejudice.

More of the same "protections only work for people i agree with"

Where do you get that from what I stated. Any business can limit which products they supply. What they cannot do is discriminate against their customers. Simple. Easy to understand.

It's a mental exercise used by people who want to force others to adhere to their morality, nothing but.

 

[martybegan]

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

OR THEY CAN JUST GO TO ANOTHER BAKER

That's their choice. They can go to another baker or they can sue for damages due to discrimination.

So then a Christian could go to a Christian billboard artist or sue a gay artist for refusing to print "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a highway billboard. OK, got it.

But but but, they argue, that's not protected, because I don't agree with it.

 

[Skylar]

The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st amendment. And denied cert to cases involving religious objections to gay marriage and PA laws.

Well it's always a good idea to WAIT until a case is brought before the Court before you make some asinine statement like "The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st Amendment. That case will be Heard. Then AFTER it's heard you can make a definitive statement about what the Court believes or doesn't believe...

A photographer who objected to serving a gay couple on religious grounds and was subject to State PA laws already petitioned the USSC for cert.

The SCOTUS denied it, refusing to hear his case. And allowed the lower court ruling that held he has violated PA laws to stand. The USSC has never found that PA laws violate the 1st amendment.

That's you, citing yourself. Which as the Obergefell ruling demonstrated is a worthless source on predicting how the court will rule on a topic.

 

[ChrisL]

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

OR THEY CAN JUST GO TO ANOTHER BAKER

That's their choice. They can go to another baker or they can sue for damages due to discrimination.

So then a Christian could go to a Christian billboard artist or sue a gay artist for refusing to print "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a highway billboard. That's the Christian's choice. OK, got it.

Exactly. Now you're getting it. However, if the billboard writer says that he only will do billboards for advertisements and not personal billboards, then he is not discriminating. The products you supply are entirely up to you. What you cannot do is discriminate against a person BECAUSE he or she is gay.

 

[ChrisL]

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

OR THEY CAN JUST GO TO ANOTHER BAKER

That's their choice. They can go to another baker or they can sue for damages due to discrimination.

So then a Christian could go to a Christian billboard artist or sue a gay artist for refusing to print "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a highway billboard. OK, got it.

But but but, they argue, that's not protected, because I don't agree with it.

It has nothing to do with me agreeing with it. I didn't write these laws. I am just trying to explain them to you. This thread is not about me or my beliefs. It is about a business owner discriminating against gay people and breaking the law in Oregon.

 

[ChrisL]

Yes, I can. I have every right to limit which services I will provide. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a certain sector of the public.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO SERVE GAYS A BIRTHDAY CAKE, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVING (an action, not a noun) BIRTHDAYS AREN'T AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. A "GAY WEDDING" IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.
I know you know the difference.

Then don't offer wedding cakes to the public. Problem solved.

Then in the reverse, if a gay graphic artist doesn't want to print a billboard for a Christian that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" then the gay graphic artist simply has to close his doors to his business.

Got that homosexual afficianados? If you have a passion to do something, it could be anything, and if a Christian wants you to do some action in that business that violates your feelings and principles about "homosexuality is normal healthy and fine/acceptable" then you should not even bother following that dream because you will have no choice in the matter, you must do that action you find loathesome, even when Christians could go down the street to a normal shop and that person would be fine with their request.

OK Just making sure we are on the same page.

Nope, and here is where your understanding of the law is poor. You can limit what your business will provide. You cannot limit your customer base based upon prejudice.

More of the same "protections only work for people i agree with"

Where do you get that from what I stated. Any business can limit which products they supply. What they cannot do is discriminate against their customers. Simple. Easy to understand.

It's a mental exercise used by people who want to force others to adhere to their morality, nothing but.

It's a secular state law. It has nothing to do with morality but fair business practice and dealings. People have civil rights. Sorry that bothers you.

 

[martybegan]

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

OR THEY CAN JUST GO TO ANOTHER BAKER

That's their choice. They can go to another baker or they can sue for damages due to discrimination.

So then a Christian could go to a Christian billboard artist or sue a gay artist for refusing to print "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a highway billboard. OK, got it.

But but but, they argue, that's not protected, because I don't agree with it.

It has nothing to do with me agreeing with it. I didn't write these laws. I am just trying to explain them to you. This thread is not about me or my beliefs. It is about a business owner discriminating against gay people and breaking the law in Oregon.

You believe in the laws, so don't try to unwash your hands by saying you didn't write them.

And it is about your beliefs, and your cowardly attempt to implement them without getting your hands truly dirty.

 

[martybegan]

Then in the reverse, if a gay graphic artist doesn't want to print a billboard for a Christian that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" then the gay graphic artist simply has to close his doors to his business.

Got that homosexual afficianados? If you have a passion to do something, it could be anything, and if a Christian wants you to do some action in that business that violates your feelings and principles about "homosexuality is normal healthy and fine/acceptable" then you should not even bother following that dream because you will have no choice in the matter, you must do that action you find loathesome, even when Christians could go down the street to a normal shop and that person would be fine with their request.

OK Just making sure we are on the same page.

Nope, and here is where your understanding of the law is poor. You can limit what your business will provide. You cannot limit your customer base based upon prejudice.

More of the same "protections only work for people i agree with"

Where do you get that from what I stated. Any business can limit which products they supply. What they cannot do is discriminate against their customers. Simple. Easy to understand.

It's a mental exercise used by people who want to force others to adhere to their morality, nothing but.

It's a secular state law. It has nothing to do with morality but fair business practice and dealings. People have civil rights. Sorry that bothers you.

Except religious business owners, you keep leaving that part out.

Also, Civil rights involve our interaction with GOVERNMENT, and the limits placed on GOVERNMENT's actions against the people.

 

[martybegan]

The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st amendment. And denied cert to cases involving religious objections to gay marriage and PA laws.

Well it's always a good idea to WAIT until a case is brought before the Court before you make some asinine statement like "The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st Amendment. That case will be Heard. Then AFTER it's heard you can make a definitive statement about what the Court believes or doesn't believe...

A photographer who objected to serving a gay couple on religious grounds and was subject to State PA laws already petitioned the USSC for cert.

The SCOTUS denied it, refusing to hear his case. And allowed the lower court ruling that held he has violated PA laws to stand. The USSC has never found that PA laws violate the 1st amendment.

That's you, citing yourself. Which as the Obergefell ruling demonstrated is a worthless source on predicting how the court will rule on a topic.

Denying Cert does not = the SC agrees with anything, they can deny due to lack of standing, or if they feel the time isn't right for viewing a case.

 

[Skylar]

The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st amendment. And denied cert to cases involving religious objections to gay marriage and PA laws.

Well it's always a good idea to WAIT until a case is brought before the Court before you make some asinine statement like "The Supreme Court has never recognized PA laws as violating the 1st Amendment. That case will be Heard. Then AFTER it's heard you can make a definitive statement about what the Court believes or doesn't believe...

A photographer who objected to serving a gay couple on religious grounds and was subject to State PA laws already petitioned the USSC for cert.

The SCOTUS denied it, refusing to hear his case. And allowed the lower court ruling that held he has violated PA laws to stand. The USSC has never found that PA laws violate the 1st amendment.

That's you, citing yourself. Which as the Obergefell ruling demonstrated is a worthless source on predicting how the court will rule on a topic.

Denying Cert does not = the SC agrees with anything, they can deny due to lack of standing, or if they feel the time isn't right for viewing a case.

The court has never found that State PA laws violate the 1st amendment and have refused to hear cases involving such challenges.

Nor has any federal court ruled that State PA laws violate the 1st amendment. Nor has a State court. There's simply no legal conflict regarding the issue in the law.

 

[saveliberty]

You can do that in your business. That is not discrimination. Discrimination is refusing to do business with a person BECAUSE they are gay, black, disabled, a woman, a man, etc.

Like religion...oh wait, Chris terms that hate speech...

 

[saveliberty]

But you can't omit writing if you're a graphic gay artist..

Yes, I can. I have every right to limit which services I will provide. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a certain sector of the public.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO SERVE GAYS A BIRTHDAY CAKE, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVING (an action, not a noun) BIRTHDAYS AREN'T AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. A "GAY WEDDING" IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.
I know you know the difference.

Then don't offer wedding cakes to the public. Problem solved.

Then in the reverse, if a gay graphic artist doesn't want to print a billboard for a Christian that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" then the gay graphic artist simply has to close his doors to his business.

Got that homosexual afficianados? If you have a passion to do something, it could be anything, and if a Christian wants you to do some action in that business that violates your feelings and principles about "homosexuality is normal healthy and fine/acceptable" then you should not even bother following that dream because you will have no choice in the matter, you must do that action you find loathesome, even when Christians could go down the street to a normal shop and that person would be fine with their request.

OK Just making sure we are on the same page.

Equality under the law. It's a double-edged sword when principles face off with principles.

You forgot the $135,000 fine.

 

[featherlite]

I think its just as important to stand up to laws as it is to protect people with laws.
Its the best way to keep the powers that be "in check".

 

[Silhouette]

But you can't omit writing if you're a graphic gay artist..

Yes, I can. I have every right to limit which services I will provide. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a certain sector of the public.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO SERVE GAYS A BIRTHDAY CAKE, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVING (an action, not a noun) BIRTHDAYS AREN'T AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. A "GAY WEDDING" IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.
I know you know the difference.

Then don't offer wedding cakes to the public. Problem solved.

Then in the reverse, if a gay graphic artist doesn't want to print a billboard for a Christian that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" then the gay graphic artist simply has to close his doors to his business...Got that homosexual afficianados? If you have a passion to do something, it could be anything, and if a Christian wants you to do some action in that business that violates your feelings and principles about "homosexuality is normal healthy and fine/acceptable" then you should not even bother following that dream because you will have no choice in the matter, you must do that action you find loathesome, even when Christians could go down the street to a normal shop and that person would be fine with their request.....OK Just making sure we are on the same page....Equality under the law. It's a double-edged sword when principles face off with principles.

You forgot the $135,000 fine.

No, I didn't forget that adminstrative/judicial arrogance at all, nor did I forget the gag order on the bakers' 1st Amendment rights. Double hubris. That guy Brad ought to start brushing up on his resume'...

 

[PratchettFan]

So that some of you can understand what discrimination actually is . . .

The Civil Rights Division of the Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) enforces Oregon´s civil rights laws. These laws ban discrimination against individuals because of characteristics that make them part of a protected class. Anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served such as a restaurant or a hotel, when buying or renting housing or when applying for or attending a career school can file a complaint with the BOLI´s Civil Rights Division.

You are citing the employment discrimination laws. They do not apply to this.

Did you read it? Here . . . "anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served, such as a restaurant or hotel . . . "

Yes. Did you read it? This is employment. I posted the public accommodation law - which this is not.

What are you disagreeing with me about? Be specific. Here is my claim . . . I can limit which services I provide to the public. Agree or disagree?

I cannot limit WHO I provide those services to. Agree or disagree?

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

 

[PratchettFan]

Of course it is arbitrary. You are deciding in a completely arbitrary manner as to what is or is not hate speech. Your product is to produce graphics, just as a baker produces cakes. You are denying your product to someone based entirely upon their religious beliefs. If they wanted it to say "Kittens are Nice" you would not deny them service, so it is entirely about the religious expression. That is discrimination. Why is it ok for you to discriminate but not the baker?

Cite the Oregon law where it is illegal or discriminatory business practice to control what services you provide? Oh right, because THAT is not discrimination.

659A.403¹
Discrimination in place of public accommodation prohibited
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, all persons within the jurisdiction of this state are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older.
(2) Subsection (1) of this section does not prohibit:
(a) The enforcement of laws governing the consumption of alcoholic beverages by minors and the frequenting by minors of places of public accommodation where alcoholic beverages are served; or
(b) The offering of special rates or services to persons 50 years of age or older.
(3) It is an unlawful practice for any person to deny full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation in violation of this section. [Formerly 30.670; 2003 c.521 §1; 2005 c.131 §1; 2007 c.100 §5]

Exactly, and only providing a limited service to everyone is not discrimination. I can refuse to put toppers on cakes. That is not discriminatory business practice.

That is not what it says. "entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction" Providing limited service is discrimination if it falls within a protected class. Religion is a protected class. Either the law is applied equally to everyone, or it is a violation of the 14th amendment.

I'm not arguing that. Limiting what your business provides the public is not discrimination. You can say that you don't offer cakes that say have any quotes and that is not discriminating against a particular group.

But you have argued that. You have stated that all you have to do with a religious statement you don't like is to call it hate speech. You can't do that. It is discrimination.

 

[ChrisL]

Cite the Oregon law where it is illegal or discriminatory business practice to control what services you provide? Oh right, because THAT is not discrimination.

659A.403¹
Discrimination in place of public accommodation prohibited
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, all persons within the jurisdiction of this state are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older.
(2) Subsection (1) of this section does not prohibit:
(a) The enforcement of laws governing the consumption of alcoholic beverages by minors and the frequenting by minors of places of public accommodation where alcoholic beverages are served; or
(b) The offering of special rates or services to persons 50 years of age or older.
(3) It is an unlawful practice for any person to deny full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation in violation of this section. [Formerly 30.670; 2003 c.521 §1; 2005 c.131 §1; 2007 c.100 §5]

Exactly, and only providing a limited service to everyone is not discrimination. I can refuse to put toppers on cakes. That is not discriminatory business practice.

That is not what it says. "entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction" Providing limited service is discrimination if it falls within a protected class. Religion is a protected class. Either the law is applied equally to everyone, or it is a violation of the 14th amendment.

I'm not arguing that. Limiting what your business provides the public is not discrimination. You can say that you don't offer cakes that say have any quotes and that is not discriminating against a particular group.

But you have argued that. You have stated that all you have to do with a religious statement you don't like is to call it hate speech. You can't do that. It is discrimination.

No it isn't. The product I make has nothing to do with refusing customers due to being black, gay or whatever. I can still have control over my products.

 

[ChrisL]

So that some of you can understand what discrimination actually is . . .

The Civil Rights Division of the Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) enforces Oregon´s civil rights laws. These laws ban discrimination against individuals because of characteristics that make them part of a protected class. Anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served such as a restaurant or a hotel, when buying or renting housing or when applying for or attending a career school can file a complaint with the BOLI´s Civil Rights Division.

You are citing the employment discrimination laws. They do not apply to this.

Did you read it? Here . . . "anyone claiming to have been discriminated against at work, in a place where the public is served, such as a restaurant or hotel . . . "

Yes. Did you read it? This is employment. I posted the public accommodation law - which this is not.

What are you disagreeing with me about? Be specific. Here is my claim . . . I can limit which services I provide to the public. Agree or disagree?

I cannot limit WHO I provide those services to. Agree or disagree?

You can limit what you provide to everyone, but that was not the scenario. Let's go back to the scenario. You are refusing to print specific words that are purely religious in nature - just words you don't like. You do not refuse to print all words to everyone. That is prohibited discrimination under the Oregon law.

That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.

 

[ChrisL]

But you can't omit writing if you're a graphic gay artist..

Yes, I can. I have every right to limit which services I will provide. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a certain sector of the public.

CHRISTIANS AREN'T REFUSING TO SERVE GAYS A BIRTHDAY CAKE, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVING (an action, not a noun) BIRTHDAYS AREN'T AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH. A "GAY WEDDING" IS AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.
I know you know the difference.

Then don't offer wedding cakes to the public. Problem solved.

Then in the reverse, if a gay graphic artist doesn't want to print a billboard for a Christian that says "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" then the gay graphic artist simply has to close his doors to his business...Got that homosexual afficianados? If you have a passion to do something, it could be anything, and if a Christian wants you to do some action in that business that violates your feelings and principles about "homosexuality is normal healthy and fine/acceptable" then you should not even bother following that dream because you will have no choice in the matter, you must do that action you find loathesome, even when Christians could go down the street to a normal shop and that person would be fine with their request.....OK Just making sure we are on the same page....Equality under the law. It's a double-edged sword when principles face off with principles.

You forgot the $135,000 fine.

No, I didn't forget that adminstrative/judicial arrogance at all, nor did I forget the gag order on the bakers' 1st Amendment rights. Double hubris. That guy Brad ought to start brushing up on his resume'...

Well, I guess you'd better take it up with the State of Oregon then. Lol. Getting mad and freaking out on me isn't going to change anything.