For all the Bigoted Bakers, Fanatical Florists and Pharisee Photographers

[Silhouette]

If I opened a printing business, I would expect to have all kinds of customers. If I had a rule, it would apply to all people equally. That is not discriminating.

So then you believe and would support as a matter of law, language in any Court Ruling on this topic when it makes it to SCOTUS in the next year or two, that gay graphic artists would have to be forced to print "homosexuality is an abomination and a mortal sin, forbidden by the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament" for a busy highway billboard, or they could be fined or gagged, or sued into the poorhouse by Christians?
OK, anyone else agree with Chris?

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

Christan New Testament teachings aren't "hate speech"...but I see where your cult is going with that. If you can deem Christians' objections to your cult's teachings "hate speech" then you can gag Christian's civil rights. Civil rights aren't dominant one over the other. The 9th Amendment makes that clear. Christians however have been in this country since day one as a religion. Deviant sex cultists only organized as a religion maybe as far back as the 1960s?

The Christian faith believes and embraces Jude 1 and Romans 1. You don't have any more right to tell a Christian to commit that mortal sin than they do to tell you to print a billboard for a busy highway that says "homosexuality is a sin unto God" So the 9th Amendment tells us that if one civil right can force another civil right to "play along or else"...then a Christian can sue a homosexual graphic artist for failing to print "homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a big public sign/display.

We are talking about two belief systems here. Not "a race" vs Christians. And in the US, all are on equal footing with equal access to equal litigation priveleges.

 

[saveliberty]

Getting discrimination lectures from someone who tells me not to post on their thread. Priceless.

 

[Nosmo King]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens.

Thus is the 'attack' on the rights of the wedding vendor.

And the rights that are being 'trampled'? Do the homosexual customers prevent the wedding vendor from attending church? Do the paying customers infringe on the free speech of the vendors? Which rights where are being 'trampled'?

Now, some wedding vendors say they oppose marriage equality. They have their reasons and those reasons deserve common respect. But if these vendors think they must impart some sort of mercantile imperator, some seal of approval by them unto the happy couple, well, those vendors are mistaken. The state issues a marriage license. The couple might want their marriage sanctified by a church. But an objection by a baker or florist carries no weight in the decision to marry.

If these wedding vendors are in fear of the status of their immortal soul when dealing with customers, they should morally vet each and every customer who comes into their shop. Using obscure Biblical passages in the service of discrimination smacks of Taliban more than Christian values.

Some of the sins expressed in the Ten Commandments are failing to remember the Sabbath and keeping it holy, failing to honor your parents, coveting your neighbor's goods, using the Lord's name in vein, stealing and, killing. Nothing about homosexuality is mentioned. But, for some wedding vendors, there is what they perceive as cover in a letter from Paul.

Using the Bible as a bludgeoning instrument is hardly why the Bible is sacred. And turning away paying customers for no other reason than you find them 'icky' is nonsensical.

 

[saveliberty]

Another example. I can refuse to make "specialty" cakes for customers. I can have a book with the cakes I will make. I can refuse to make a specialty cake for anyone, as this does not discriminate against any group of people in particular. However, refusing to even bake a cake, which is the service I provide, to a person because he or she is gay, is discrimination.

Gay cakes are "specialty cakes", problem solved.

 

[Nosmo King]

Another example. I can refuse to make "specialty" cakes for customers. I can have a book with the cakes I will make. I can refuse to make a specialty cake for anyone, as this does not discriminate against any group of people in particular. However, refusing to even bake a cake, which is the service I provide, to a person because he or she is gay, is discrimination.

Gay cakes are "specialty cakes", problem solved.

What do you imagine a wedding cake looks like? And isn't a birthday cake, a wedding cake, an anniversary cake considered 'specialty' cakes too? Any cake that delivers a special message is a 'specialty' cake.

 

[Silhouette]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

 

[ChrisL]

If I opened a printing business, I would expect to have all kinds of customers. If I had a rule, it would apply to all people equally. That is not discriminating.

So then you believe and would support as a matter of law, language in any Court Ruling on this topic when it makes it to SCOTUS in the next year or two, that gay graphic artists would have to be forced to print "homosexuality is an abomination and a mortal sin, forbidden by the teachings of Jesus Christ in the New Testament" for a busy highway billboard, or they could be fined or gagged, or sued into the poorhouse by Christians?
OK, anyone else agree with Chris?

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

Christan New Testament teachings aren't "hate speech"...but I see where your cult is going with that. If you can deem Christians' objections to your cult's teachings "hate speech" then you can gag Christian's civil rights. Civil rights aren't dominant one over the other. The 9th Amendment makes that clear. Christians however have been in this country since day one as a religion. Deviant sex cultists only organized as a religion maybe as far back as the 1960s?

The Christian faith believes and embraces Jude 1 and Romans 1. You don't have any more right to tell a Christian to commit that mortal sin than they do to tell you to print a billboard for a busy highway that says "homosexuality is a sin unto God" So the 9th Amendment tells us that if one civil right can force another civil right to "play along or else"...then a Christian can sue a homosexual graphic artist for failing to print "homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a big public sign/display.

We are talking about two belief systems here. Not "a race" vs Christians. And in the US, all are on equal footing with equal access to equal litigation priveleges.

No, and here is where you are being ignorant. You can refuse to provide a product. You cannot refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. If I open a bakery and make cakes, and a person who is gay comes in for a cake, I cannot refuse to do business with this person because I make cakes.

If a person comes in with a special request cake, yes, I can refuse to make the product. That is not discriminating. I can say that I don't write personal messages on cakes. I can say that I only write "happy birthday and a person's name, etc." on a cake. That does not discriminate and/or disallow service to a certain segment of the population.

When you open a business, your business is subject to the rules and regulations of your state, and most states I would imagine have anti-discrimination laws. This has nothing to do with the product you are supplying but your refusal to even do business with a certain segment of the population because of who they are or because of their belief system.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

My question in this whole matter is - if you force someone to make anything against their wishes that you are going to eat, whatever your rights, would you feel comfortable eating it?

 

[ChrisL]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

No because you are not refusing to do business with that person based on who they are, but on the product being requested. If you don't supply those types of products to any customers, then it is not discrimination.

 

[g5000]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

If the gay-owned business has provided custom ordered billboards as a regular part of their commerce, then the gay-owned business should provide the customer with the requested billboard.

But if billboards are not a part of their business, then they should not have to provide one.

 

[saveliberty]

Another example. I can refuse to make "specialty" cakes for customers. I can have a book with the cakes I will make. I can refuse to make a specialty cake for anyone, as this does not discriminate against any group of people in particular. However, refusing to even bake a cake, which is the service I provide, to a person because he or she is gay, is discrimination.

Gay cakes are "specialty cakes", problem solved.

What do you imagine a wedding cake looks like? And isn't a birthday cake, a wedding cake, an anniversary cake considered 'specialty' cakes too? Any cake that delivers a special message is a 'specialty' cake.

The ones in my book would have a bride and groom on top. The OP stated there would be a book showing cakes she would make. It wasn't my post, I just responded.

 

[Nosmo King]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

You're talking about an explicit po9litical message as opposed to a wedding cake. What political message is sent by a wedding cake? And is that message as provocative as the good old fashioned Gay bashing attempted by the alleged Christian?

 

[PratchettFan]

What if I had a rule that I didn't put two men or two women on a wedding cake and applied that equally to everyone? Would that be discrimination?

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

What the graphic artist does is create graphics. You think it is ok to refuse service to someone who is expressing a religious position you don't agree with. But it is not ok for the baker to say they won't put two male figures on a cake. One is not discrimination and the other is, despite the fact that both customers are protected classes under the same law. Explain that to me.

I didn't say that. I said I would have a rule against "hate speech" and it would apply equally to everyone. If a person wanted an "I hate Christians" sign. I would refuse. If a person wanted an "I hate gays" sign. I would also refuse. That is equal application and not discriminatory business practice.

So the difference really is you agree with one group and don't agree with the other. It's not discrimination because you're doing it and you are one of the good guys. Which, of course, is precisely the position of the other folks. Interesting what people can convince themselves of, isn't it?

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

And they have a rule they apply to everyone. Your rule (which you apply in an arbitrary manner, given the example given was not hate speech - just a religious position you disagree with) is the basis to discriminate against a protected class. It is discrimination, and would probably be seen as a violation of the PA law in Oregon.

 

[Silhouette]

No, and here is where you are being ignorant. You can refuse to provide a product. You cannot refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay..

Then you, as a graphic artist and gay, cannot refuse a Christian asking you to print a "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" billboard for a busy highway, simply because the person asking is a Christian. If your company prints billboards for a living, you cannot deny the Christian their request. Now if the Christian was asking you to print a sign that said "Pay less at Joe's Shoe Store on rte 34", that would be a different request to the gay person's principles. Wouldn't it?

Because we are talking principles vs principles, not "race" vs principles. And in the US, equality is the rule of the day. Gays asking Christians to participate in or promote their "being married" in any way is directly offensive to core beliefs and teachings of Jesus Christ. One offense deserves the same remedies as another when belief matches belief.

 

[ChrisL]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

No because you are not refusing to do business with that person based on who they are, but on the product being requested. If you don't supply those types of products to any customers, then it is not discrimination.

No, that is discriminating against gay people. You could have a rule that you make the cake but you don't decorate them. Or, you can have generic cakes that the public can choose and not deviate from those samples.

What the graphic artist does is create graphics. You think it is ok to refuse service to someone who is expressing a religious position you don't agree with. But it is not ok for the baker to say they won't put two male figures on a cake. One is not discrimination and the other is, despite the fact that both customers are protected classes under the same law. Explain that to me.

I didn't say that. I said I would have a rule against "hate speech" and it would apply equally to everyone. If a person wanted an "I hate Christians" sign. I would refuse. If a person wanted an "I hate gays" sign. I would also refuse. That is equal application and not discriminatory business practice.

So the difference really is you agree with one group and don't agree with the other. It's not discrimination because you're doing it and you are one of the good guys. Which, of course, is precisely the position of the other folks. Interesting what people can convince themselves of, isn't it?

No, where do you see this happening. If I have a rule for my business, it would apply to everyone equally. I wouldn't single out one group or another. If I had a rule against hate speech, it would be hate speech from anyone, not one particular group or another. Therefore, not discrimination.

And they have a rule they apply to everyone. Your rule (which you apply in an arbitrary manner, given the example given was not hate speech - just a religious position you disagree with) is the basis to discriminate against a protected class. It is discrimination, and would probably be seen as a violation of the PA law in Oregon.

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

 

[PratchettFan]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

You're talking about an explicit po9litical message as opposed to a wedding cake. What political message is sent by a wedding cake? And is that message as provocative as the good old fashioned Gay bashing attempted by the alleged Christian?

That was not a political message, it was a religious one. The PA law in Oregon specifically prohibits discrimination based upon religion.

 

[ChrisL]

Let me simplify again. If I open a business that makes wedding cakes, I can limit what I will write on a cake. I cannot refuse to serve gay people though.

 

[ChrisL]

These Christian wedding vendors are using the vocabulary of victimhood. Their rights are being 'trampled' by 'attacks' from homosexual customers.

Let's take a look at the nature of these 'attacks', the order of battle, if you will.

Homosexual customers are coming to theses vendors (bakers, photographers, caterers, florists) with cash or credit cards in hand. They come as paying customers expecting to be served just as all other paying customers are served. They expect the same level of quality service that brought them into the establishment in the first place. These homosexual customers do not expect to be turned away because they are breaking no laws, they are paying customers, and they are American citizens..

Then you'd have no problem with your faith/cult being sued by Christians? If a Christian walked into a gay graphic arts studio and demanded a billboard sign for a busy highway that said "Homosexuality is a sin unto God", would that Christian be allowed to sue the gay artist for not complying?

Yes or no?

You're talking about an explicit po9litical message as opposed to a wedding cake. What political message is sent by a wedding cake? And is that message as provocative as the good old fashioned Gay bashing attempted by the alleged Christian?

That was not a political message, it was a religious one. The PA law in Oregon specifically prohibits discrimination based upon religion.

Not supplying a product is not discrimination in any sense of the word. As a business owner, you do still have some control over your business. What you cannot do is discriminate in the sense that you will refuse service to a person because he or she is gay or black or disabled or religious or an atheist, etc. You can still choose what products you will supply though.

 

[Silhouette]

It would not be applied arbitrarily is the point you are missing. I can refuse to make a specific product. I cannot refuse to serve specific customers.

Stop squirming around the question asshole (I'm growing weary of your "gentle diversions"). Answer it. If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?

 

[ChrisL]

In fact, I can open up a business that specializes in making signs for churches. That is not discriminatory either. That just happens to be the products I offer at my business.