Forgiveness

[syrenn]

I think the goal is always forgiveness...no matter what the person has done. If you're unable to forgive just let go. Life from a mental health perspective is all about constant adjustment. If you cannot forgive...learn to let it go. Holding on to negative emotion has never benefited anyone.

that is my point.... there is no need to forgive. If you cant, just let it go and move on.

forgiving is not the key to moving on....

Forgiveness is the most spiritually evolved position. I struggle with true forgiveness. But you're right....at minimum find a way to let it go. Boop needs to make her own decision whether or not she's in a place to forgive. It does sound like she's trying to let in go. Hopefully the work she is doing is helpful.

I am not worried about the spiritually of any of anything... spirituality and mental health are two separate issues and events.

what i am gathering in all of this.... is she is trying very hard to forgive but is conflicted that in process. Being conflicted is not a good place to be either. That leads to its own issues separate from the main event. Not a good mental health place to be.

it is better to move on, let go it all... and just deal with not being able to forgive something unforgivable.

some people and the things they do ... flat out do not deserve to be forgiven. It is not wrong to not forgive.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Okay....matter of personal opinion. Every major religion states true forgiveness is the best path. I happen to agree. However, true forgiveness is extremely difficult, particularly when someone has really screwed you over.

Whatever Boop decides has to be comfortable to her. Only she can make that decision. Having a Mom that held grudges and could never let things go is probably not the best example to grow up with.

Sounds like Boop is trying to explore a new path for herself. I commend her....but none of these things are easy.

Can you let it go without forgiving.....of course. Would it be better to learn to forgive as well.... probably....at least in my opinion. If you see things differently that's fine....but I do have about 5,000 years of spiritual guidance from folks like Budda, Christ, Moses, among others that say differently.


And note: There is a strong link between spiritual health and mental health. They are intimately connected. There is an entire school of psychology and therapy (Existential Therapy) that deals with spiritual issues. We have all had existential issues in our lives that have destabilized us. (Why am I here? Why do terrible things happen? What is my place in the World? How do I find meaning in my personal life). Addressing these spiritual crises is probably the greatest avenue for personal growth.

 

[syrenn]

Okay....matter of personal opinion. Every major religion states true forgiveness is the best path. I happen to agree. However, true forgiveness is extremely difficult, particularly when someone has really screwed you over.

Whatever Boop decides has to be comfortable to her. Only she can make that decision. Having a Mom that held grudges and could never let things go is probably not the best example to grow up with.

Sounds like Boop is trying to explore a new path for herself. I commend her....but none of these things are easy.

Can you let it go without forgiving.....of course. Would it be better to learn to forgive as well.... probably....at least in my opinion. If you see things differently that's fine....but I do have about 5,000 years of spiritual guidance from folks like Budda, Christ, Moses, among others that say differently.

lol... as i said.

two separate issues... religion and mental health.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Okay....matter of personal opinion. Every major religion states true forgiveness is the best path. I happen to agree. However, true forgiveness is extremely difficult, particularly when someone has really screwed you over.

Whatever Boop decides has to be comfortable to her. Only she can make that decision. Having a Mom that held grudges and could never let things go is probably not the best example to grow up with.

Sounds like Boop is trying to explore a new path for herself. I commend her....but none of these things are easy.

Can you let it go without forgiving.....of course. Would it be better to learn to forgive as well.... probably....at least in my opinion. If you see things differently that's fine....but I do have about 5,000 years of spiritual guidance from folks like Budda, Christ, Moses, among others that say differently.

lol... as i said.

two separate issues... religion and mental health.

I never said religion. I said spirituality. And yes, there is conclusive evidence spiritual health and mental health are intimately connected. That is not subject to debate.

 

[syrenn]

Okay....matter of personal opinion. Every major religion states true forgiveness is the best path. I happen to agree. However, true forgiveness is extremely difficult, particularly when someone has really screwed you over.

Whatever Boop decides has to be comfortable to her. Only she can make that decision. Having a Mom that held grudges and could never let things go is probably not the best example to grow up with.

Sounds like Boop is trying to explore a new path for herself. I commend her....but none of these things are easy.

Can you let it go without forgiving.....of course. Would it be better to learn to forgive as well.... probably....at least in my opinion. If you see things differently that's fine....but I do have about 5,000 years of spiritual guidance from folks like Budda, Christ, Moses, among others that say differently.

lol... as i said.

two separate issues... religion and mental health.

I never said religion. I said spirituality. And yes, there is conclusive evidence spiritual health and mental health are intimately connected. That is not subject to debate.

budda, christ, moses....ect..... all religious.... just saying....

 

[WelfareQueen]

lol... as i said.

two separate issues... religion and mental health.

I never said religion. I said spirituality. And yes, there is conclusive evidence spiritual health and mental health are intimately connected. That is not subject to debate.

budda, christ, moses....ect..... all religious.... just saying....

The crap built up around their teachings is religion....the actual words were supposed to relate spiritual truths. Big difference.

 

[BDBoop]

My sis and I fought a lot, and even up to her death in 2007 we hardly spoke to each other. Oh how I wished I had a sibling to fight with... Before it's too late, confirm your love and do not expect repayment of actions by yourself that are noble and of good gesture....

Honey I am really sorry for your loss? But my guess is, your sister was not a drunken sociopath. This isn't about anywhere in the realm of normal familial bonds. This is about literally dangerous people.

The price is too high.

If the price is to high.... why pay it?

I'm not. We are estranged.

I was talking to Moonglow, who has lost his sister and wants me to realize life is too short. I know life is too short, that's why I won't be reaching out to her.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Boop, you need to do what is right for you. That's the bottom line. No one else has walked in your shoes.

 

[BDBoop]

Okay....matter of personal opinion. Every major religion states true forgiveness is the best path. I happen to agree. However, true forgiveness is extremely difficult, particularly when someone has really screwed you over.

Whatever Boop decides has to be comfortable to her. Only she can make that decision. Having a Mom that held grudges and could never let things go is probably not the best example to grow up with.

Sounds like Boop is trying to explore a new path for herself. I commend her....but none of these things are easy.

Can you let it go without forgiving.....of course. Would it be better to learn to forgive as well.... probably....at least in my opinion. If you see things differently that's fine....but I do have about 5,000 years of spiritual guidance from folks like Budda, Christ, Moses, among others that say differently.

lol... as i said.

two separate issues... religion and mental health.

It's like - yes. I can eat what I want, but I will pay, either by weight gain or in other ways. And the other ways can be deadly: inflammatory diseases, gallbladder disease, liver function and other internal organs lose efficiency. Heart and lungs adversely effected.

Here's an example. I'll be munching away on some candy, and I will notice I'm pissed. At nothing. For no reason. Processed sugar is not my friend.

If I hold onto my "right to be Right," it costs me. Now, there are two threads at this point, and Jeri pointed out one of them. I forgive very easily. All somebody has to do is stop attacking me, and game over. I was born that way, and this (hindsight being 20/20) was a huge slap in the face to my mother. She wanted to be the Christian setting the standard, but she was fighting mental illness without benefit of diagnosis or treatment.

But secondly it's just a gift. Like some can eat anything and not gain weight, at some point they have to avoid gluttony as a kindness to their system. So the other aspect is that if the other person doesn't let it go? I have to find my own way there.

So let's say three different scenarios. Use the board for one example. There are some here who despise me. Most I will put on ignore. Let them sharpen their claws on someone who wants to return the favor. If at some point I find that they have apparently declared a truce, I will interact with them on the board, but they will never be trusted in a serious fashion.

My situation with my dad is why I started this thread. I have come to understand that I just need to let it go. IMPORTANT NOTE: it is the healthier person who can do this. Forgiveness isn't the weak road, it's the position of strength. People who are stuck cannot change course.

Finally, my sister. Unless you've ever befriended a nest of rattlesnakes or scorpions, I am sure you will understand why forgiveness is sometimes best carried out from a distance. She did so much damage that if you just utter her name, alarm systems go off. "What's wrong?! Did she call you?! OMG?! What did she say?!" you can almost hear their subconscious screaming "INCOMING, DUCK AND COVER!!"

Please God. Don't let my iPad eat the post!!

 

[Marie888]

It's hard so many times.. I pray and hope it helps and brings you peace.

Since God withholds forgiveness, can we?
Since God withholds forgiveness, can we?


.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Jeremiah is awesome, aside from being a bullfrog

You can't make your father believe what you say. You told him. There isn't much else you can do. Whether he believes you or not is not that much in your control.

Jeremiah was right concerning me. In judaism there is no obligation to forgive anyone who doesn't want to be forgiven.

Let's say you abused me. Unless you sincerely want and ask for forgiveness, I have no obligation to absue you. Yes, I need to manage my feelings. However, you can manage feelings without forgiving someone.

In judaism there are two different types of sins.

There are sins against G-D and there are sins against your fellow man.

Sins against G-D you can ask for forgiveness right away from G-D.

Sins against your fellow man you have to first seek forgiveness from the person you sinned against before approaching G-D about it.

I always found it a bit arrogant that christianity seems to concentrate on forgiving rather than apologizing.

There is someone I know who is a prespeterian minister. She called me about some preceived sin I committed against her, and she magnamoisly proclaimed that she has forgiven me.

Well...guess what?

1) I ddin't committ this act

2) I really don't find what she did commendable and I didn't want her forgiveness. I would rather she apologize for injusticies that she did to me which there were several.

It's a lot easier to say I forgive you, where you are admitting someone else was wrong, than I apologize, where you are admitting that you were wrong.

I'm an awesome bullfrog?

Mike! Did you know that a bullfrog never sleeps? It's true.

I agree with Judaism in the two types of sins. One against G-d, King David said, You alone, O LORD, have I sinned against. When it was a person it is only right to go to them first however.

On the matter of forgiveness, Mike. In my own faith a Pentacostal would never go to the person who they had ought against and say, I forgive you. That would be considered the height of arrogance and frowned upon! If someone did that to you it is a sure sign they are holding unforgiveness still! In my faith forgiveness is done in the heart knowing the other person has no idea what you are doing. If the Prespertarian minister had truly forgiven any perceived ought they would have said, I have not been right in my heart towards you -please forgive me - you would have seen a genuine sign of humility or it isn't real. If someone announces they forgive you and you didn't ask for forgiveness you can be sure there is something else going on underneath. imo.

I would not respond to the person you mentioned, Mike. They obviously have issues and are in the ministry for reasons other than the love of G-d.


It is good to see you here!

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Okay....matter of personal opinion. Every major religion states true forgiveness is the best path. I happen to agree. However, true forgiveness is extremely difficult, particularly when someone has really screwed you over.

Whatever Boop decides has to be comfortable to her. Only she can make that decision. Having a Mom that held grudges and could never let things go is probably not the best example to grow up with.

Sounds like Boop is trying to explore a new path for herself. I commend her....but none of these things are easy.

Can you let it go without forgiving.....of course. Would it be better to learn to forgive as well.... probably....at least in my opinion. If you see things differently that's fine....but I do have about 5,000 years of spiritual guidance from folks like Budda, Christ, Moses, among others that say differently.

lol... as i said.

two separate issues... religion and mental health.

It's like - yes. I can eat what I want, but I will pay, either by weight gain or in other ways. And the other ways can be deadly: inflammatory diseases, gallbladder disease, liver function and other internal organs lose efficiency. Heart and lungs adversely effected.

Here's an example. I'll be munching away on some candy, and I will notice I'm pissed. At nothing. For no reason. Processed sugar is not my friend.

If I hold onto my "right to be Right," it costs me. Now, there are two threads at this point, and Jeri pointed out one of them. I forgive very easily. All somebody has to do is stop attacking me, and game over. I was born that way, and this (hindsight being 20/20) was a huge slap in the face to my mother. She wanted to be the Christian setting the standard, but she was fighting mental illness without benefit of diagnosis or treatment.

But secondly it's just a gift. Like some can eat anything and not gain weight, at some point they have to avoid gluttony as a kindness to their system. So the other aspect is that if the other person doesn't let it go? I have to find my own way there.

So let's say three different scenarios. Use the board for one example. There are some here who despise me. Most I will put on ignore. Let them sharpen their claws on someone who wants to return the favor. If at some point I find that they have apparently declared a truce, I will interact with them on the board, but they will never be trusted in a serious fashion.

My situation with my dad is why I started this thread. I have come to understand that I just need to let it go. IMPORTANT NOTE: it is the healthier person who can do this. Forgiveness isn't the weak road, it's the position of strength. People who are stuck cannot change course.

Finally, my sister. Unless you've ever befriended a nest of rattlesnakes or scorpions, I am sure you will understand why forgiveness is sometimes best carried out from a distance. She did so much damage that if you just utter her name, alarm systems go off. "What's wrong?! Did she call you?! OMG?! What did she say?!" you can almost hear their subconscious screaming "INCOMING, DUCK AND COVER!!"

Please God. Don't let my iPad eat the post!!

You definitely forgive fast. You remind me of my brother because he is the same way. It is very humbling and mystifying to meet such people because we wonder how do they manage that? Forgiveness is the position of strength. Love is stronger than death, said Solomon. You have a lot of wisdom, BD. I think your discernment is spot on.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

It is a bit convoluted, so I will try again.

I am trying to find my way clear to forgiving him for not forgiving me for something that I did not do. I didn't "talk my sister into" taking her son. I had nothing to do with it. He can't hear me. And I need to just let it go.

Here is what i am seeing at this point


you dont want to forgive him.... You dont really feel the forgivness.

but for some reason you think that forgiving him will make things better and or right with you and them.

Not at all. I want to because not forgiving is a very unhealthy place for me to be, mentally. My mother literally bore grudges for decades. She would say she wasn't, but she was she never let anything go. Ever.

I can't be that person.

It is a very unhealthy place for anyone to be mentally, physically and otherwise. imo. There are no benefits to unforgiveness. None. What I've learned is people generally do not want you to experience any greater freedom than they themselves have in their own life. If they are bitter? They want you to be bitter. If they won't forgive? They don't want others to forgive either. Misery loves company.....

 

[BDBoop]

The benefit is a perception of safety, I think.

 

[Smilebong]

I have read several books on forgiveness. It has plagued me. I was sexually assaulted at age 11. And I had something happen when I was 19 that hurt me so deeply that I had nightmares about it for probably 10 years.

What I found helped me was the definition based on an Old Testament passage that says

"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins."

God does it for his sake. And he defines it as not remembering them.

The problem is that God knows everything, and he doesn't forget in the sense that he doesn't know. What he means is that he does not rehearse it in his mind.

So, I learned to do this. Ask God to help me forgive as he does. Whenever the thought comes up, I say to myself, "That is forgiven, I will not rehash it." And I do all I can to not hold it against that person by dwelling on it and allowing my anger to fester. After a while, it subsides and the memory fades.

 

[BDBoop]

11 here, too.

 

[Avatar4321]

forgiveness is not easy. if it was, everyone would be able to do it.

Prayer and meditation is good. But there may be more that is needed.

When Christ came down from the mount of transfiguration some of his disciples were trying to cast out a devil from a child and they could not. Christ did it and his disciples later asked them why they could not. He answered as following:

Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting (Matt 17:12)

Fasting is a key component to obtaining spiritual empowerment that I think is often neglected by people. I am not recommending you fast for 40 days or 40 nights. Especially if you've never done it before. But when you fast prudently and couple it with prayer it may give you greater capacity to forgive and love.

The fact that you want to forgive is a good first step. Sometimes it just takes time.

 

[Chuckt]

It's hard so many times.. I pray and hope it helps and brings you peace.

Since God withholds forgiveness, can we?
Since God withholds forgiveness, can we?


.

I studied this and while Gotquestions is a great help, there is evidence that other people got forgiveness without repenting.

Luke 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

So Gotquestions is a good resource but commentaries and online articles never substitute your own personal Bible study.

Chuck

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Okay....matter of personal opinion. Every major religion states true forgiveness is the best path. I happen to agree. However, true forgiveness is extremely difficult, particularly when someone has really screwed you over.

Whatever Boop decides has to be comfortable to her. Only she can make that decision. Having a Mom that held grudges and could never let things go is probably not the best example to grow up with.

Sounds like Boop is trying to explore a new path for herself. I commend her....but none of these things are easy.

Can you let it go without forgiving.....of course. Would it be better to learn to forgive as well.... probably....at least in my opinion. If you see things differently that's fine....but I do have about 5,000 years of spiritual guidance from folks like Budda, Christ, Moses, among others that say differently.

lol... as i said.

two separate issues... religion and mental health.

I never said religion. I said spirituality. And yes, there is conclusive evidence spiritual health and mental health are intimately connected. That is not subject to debate.

Absolutely. Every problem over the age of 40 is spiritual and that includes every mental health issue under the sun. Pyschology has never "cured" anyone. That is alot of nonsense. Much of the country is medicated on anti depressants and it hasn't done a thing but create bigger problems. There is only one answer. G-d is the answer. The answer to every problem and when someone's life is not working the answer should be sought at a spiritual level. If you do not get to the root of the problem it will only come back - again and again...

 

[syrenn]

so many mean people in your real life boop....