Forgiveness

[Gracie]

Wow. How time flies between stages. You might wanna re study this one:

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

Here's what I think about forgiveness. I only forgive those who are sorry for what they did and willing to apologize, publicly if appropriate. If they're not sorry, if they won't apologize...they're not forgiven. It doesn't eat me up, it doesn't darken my soul. I just don't give a damn.

UNLESS...I love them unconditionally. I've known damn few beings in this life whom I've loved unconditionally. But they would be forgiven without being sorry and without an apology. Because I love them unconditionally, I don't even have to think about forgiving them...it is automatic.

However, like I said, there have been damn few souls I've loved that much. Just being a family member or friend doesn't qualify someone for unconditional love. True unconditional love is a rare thing, at least in my experience.

 

[Ava]

My take on things.

My first voyage into this thread BD, landing right here, and I must say, I love your post. I enjoy so much of what the Buddha taught.

 

[BDBoop]

And that'd be my daughter, for me.

I think she's the only one.

I'm starting to grasp the concept of repentance on that front. Because it's not actual repentance if the behavior just keeps happening. I think that's when it comes down to removing oneself from the person that claims the high ground but continues to offend.

 

[BDBoop]

My take on things.

My first voyage into this thread BD, landing right here, and I must say, I love your post. I enjoy so much of what the Buddha taught.

It shows.

 

[Ava]

My take on things.

My first voyage into this thread BD, landing right here, and I must say, I love your post. I enjoy so much of what the Buddha taught.

It shows.

 

[Andylusion]

I am currently working my way through some familial issues on a therapeutic front. I know "to err is human, to forgive divine" *even though I don't actually know where the saying is from*. And I grasp the concept of seventy-times-seven. What I'm having trouble with is part of that last bit. And I don't care if you are Christian, pagan, wiccan, atheist, I would just appreciate some feedback.

How do you forgive someone who doesn't want to be forgiven because they don't believe they did anything wrong. Essentially, I'm having trouble just letting go of them believing an untruth about me, no matter how many times we discuss the situation. Not only that, but they think I need to ask their forgiveness for something I didn't do.

The issue in question is several decades old but nobody has picked at the scar for some time now.

I've been praying, meditating - and pretty much posting here to avoid dealing with the fact that I can't seem to come to grips with this issue.

Forgiveness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Forgiveness is the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense, lets go of negative emotions such as revenge, with an increased ability to wish the offender well.​

I heard a preacher once say that to forgive, is to release someone who has done you wrong, from the debt they owe you for that wrong done.

Meaning, that you release them from 'owing you', regardless of what they do, which includes even admitting they did something wrong.

Point blank.... you do not need them to even know they hurt you, for you to forgive them.

Now I could be wrong where I heard this, but I think it was the same guy that referred to the very phrase you mentioned to err is human, to forgive divine", and had a different take:

He (or someone) said that people often assume this means that "to forgive is divine", means that if you forgive you are just a great person. His take was rather that, being able to forgive requires divine help.

We human need help from above to forgive, and that we just are not able to do it alone. And obviously it's easier if the offending party admits their error, and better still if they have remorse, and of course the Platinum weep begging forgiveness face to the floor..... Right?

But humans are as prone to do wrong, as they are to be clueless and stupid.... are we not?

I'm not going to suggest that whatever you have been through, I somehow have been through the same. But I will say that have been in times past deeply wounded by people who claimed to be my friend, and still to this day they either don't know, or don't care, how badly they hurt me.

Over a decade ago, I can tell you I used to wish, even fantasize that they would realize the harm they caused, and come begging for forgiveness, call me up, send me an email, and say how wrong they were, and how badly they had acted...... and I was very bitter that they didn't.

And.... they won't. I realized, they are not coming, and me being bitter was only causing me harm. Not them. I had to forgive, and let it go. Was it fun? lol, nope. Did I get this great walking on air, head in the clouds feeling? lol... I wish. But... it is better.

Scars? You bet. Today, that individual is a successful professor at a college, and has a family, and is doing well, and I can say 10 years after, good for him. Again, no euphoric feeling, and we certainly don't 'hang out' or whatever, but this is better.

I think to forgive, is divine. You need divine G-d in order to forgive. It's just too much for us to do on our own.

 

[BDBoop]

Thank you so, so much. The divine thing makes a lot of sense. I don't pray anywhere near as often as I used to, but my prayers usually involve "I can't. I can't do this, I can't bear this burden anymore, I can't continue to be in this much pain. I just can't." And it seems to be the admittance (just like "I am powerless over alcohol") or acknowledgement that releases God (or whoever you perceive to be 'power in the universe') to work in the situation.

And it is so freaking freeing.

 

[pillars]

"forgive others, not because they deserve forgiveness, but because you deserve peace."

 

[MaryL]

Where do you draw the line at forgiveness? Rape, murder, stealing, at what point do you draw a line? Nothing? Anything goes?

 

[BDBoop]

"forgive others, not because they deserve forgiveness, but because you deserve peace."

Stellar.

 

[BDBoop]

Where do you draw the line at forgiveness? Rape, murder, stealing, at what point do you draw a line? Nothing? Anything goes?

I don't believe that's a question that can be answered. Forgiving is an individual thing. I've forgiven torture, rape, ... know what's interesting though? I find it much easier to forgive others than forgive myself. And I really, really need to treat myself as well as I treat others whom I love.

 

[Gracie]

When the person who keeps doing what they do even after apologizing. It means it is empty and never meant a damn thing, Mary.

I would find it difficult to forgive someone that raped or murdered. Stealing is a gray area. Why did they steal? What did they steal? Raping and murdering is another whole ballgame.

But holding on to the anger/angst/bitterness does not hurt the person that hurt you. It hurts YOU. So live and learn.

I know. Easier said than done.

 

[BDBoop]

I like this one.

 

[BDBoop]

This. I have said this over and over. Happy people don't treat people badly. They just don't.

 

[Gracie]

Never mind.

 

[pillars]

Where do you draw the line at forgiveness? Rape, murder, stealing, at what point do you draw a line? Nothing? Anything goes?

Why do you equate forgiveness with tolerance or approval of something bad?

Forgiveness is the act of untying your personal ego and pain from some harm that was done to you, and moving on.

It's the choice to heal, rather than to cling to injury.

Actions still have consequences. Those consequences are separate and apart from the act of forgiveness.

 

[BDBoop]

I spent literally decades hoping my mother went to hell. Then I realized she likely wouldn't, because she asked Jesus to forgive her. Not me. She asked Him. Of course he said yes.

When she developed dementia, I finally realized I didn't want her to suffer. I just wanted her to stop hurting me. She didn't. Even as her mind was slipping away, she showered affection on my siblings, and glared at me.

Finally she was gone. And all I can think is that it would be a very cruel God who would send someone to hell for being mentally ill. I love her, I miss her, but she never wanted to be here to begin with - and I need to believe it was all worth something. That life doesn't just end, and we're gone. I believe she is in heaven, and I believe that's what she deserves, because she was an amazing woman with a huge heart who did great things DESPITE her illness.

Sometimes I think about the damage she did to my daughter and myself, but then I stop because it hurts. And I don't deserve the pain.

 

[Andylusion]

Where do you draw the line at forgiveness? Rape, murder, stealing, at what point do you draw a line? Nothing? Anything goes?

You are confusing forgiveness and justice.

Justice - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Justice, is to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one's misdeeds​

Notice that Justice is a societal thing. It's society saying you violated societies laws, and thus you must be punished for that.

If you go back an look at the definition of forgiveness, you'll notice that it is a personal thing. You have done *ME* wrong, and *I* will release you from that debt you owe *ME*.

But releasing someone personally does not mean you ignore justice. This is how a woman whose son was killed by a gang member, can say in court "I forgive you", and still let him go to prison.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

This is also a difference between Forgiving, and Prudence. Some people mistake forgiving someone, as meaning you now have to allow yourself to be harmed again.

Not true. I heard the story of a man who parents didn't like his wife, and they were intentionally causing all kinds of harm in his marriage. He finally arranged a family meeting, and explained that this was his wife, and if they didn't stop, he would completely abandon them, in order to protect his marriage.

Did he forgive them? Absolutely. But that didn't mean he was going to continue to allow them to damage his family.

Prudence, and Forgiveness are not mutually exclusive either. You *CAN* wish the best for someone else, even while you create wise barriers around yourself. That doesn't wall yourself into a hole, but be prudent and act intelligently to protect yourself from harm, while forgiving those that don't know, or don't care that they are harming you.

The whole basis of the Christian belief is that, we're not Judge. G-d is Judge. That why it says in Romans 12

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

For us, we accept it's not up to us to equal out the wrongs done in this world.... but rather it is G-d who will balance out the scales in the end.

And lastly, you asked where the line was on forgiveness.

I can't speak for all world views out there, but for the Christian, this simply isn't optional.

Speaking just to the Christians here.... To forgive is a command, not a 'really good option'.

Matthew 18:21-35

“Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold, along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned, to pay the debt.

“But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

“But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

“His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

“When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

“That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”

Again, if some of you are of a different world view, then follow that.

But for the Christian, this is the word of G-d. Forgiving is not up for debate, or one of a multitude of options. It's a direct command. Amen.

 

[Kooshdakhaa]

Where do you draw the line at forgiveness? Rape, murder, stealing, at what point do you draw a line? Nothing? Anything goes?

In the case of unconditional love, I forgive anything. Even attacks against myself.

Thank God I've only had unconditional love for three beings in my life...and one was my dog.

But for those, not only would I forgive them for rape, murder, stealing...I would cover for them.

For example, my dog...if she had bitten me I would have forgiven her. And if I had to get medical care I would tell them I was bitten by a stray dog, not my dog. I would cover for her so Animal Control wouldn't quarantine her or something.

If my mother had murdered someone...I would not only forgive her for doing it, I would have helped her cover her tracks. I would have assumed she had good reason. I would have talked to her about it, tried to understand, but would never "turn her in." Nor would she have turned me in. Luckily, neither of us murdered anyone. We were both more likely to save someone, not murder them.

I guess it's a good thing I don't love 99.9% of the people in my life...unconditionally! Because when I say unconditional, I mean unconditional. And you don't turn someone you love unconditionally in to the cops. It's you and them against the world. An unbreakable bond.